Author Topic: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?  (Read 15468 times)

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Offline NumiKat

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PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« on: January 22, 2014, 01:20:45 AM »
The other day, I looked at the PCGS population report for MCC and found it interesting that PCGS has recently been awarding a lot of 70 grades.

For example:

1995 5 Yn Silver panda Small Date Frosted Gap:  PCGS population of MS 70's recently jumped from 0 to 5 (NGC has graded 0 as MS 70)

2001 10 Yn Silver Panda Small D: PCGS population of MS 70's recently jumped from 0 to 12 (NGC has graded 3 as MS 70)

2013 1 Ounce panda coin expo: PCGS MS 70 population is 7 (NGC has graded 0 as MS 70)

Has anyone else noticed this? Could the large number of PCGS 70's be due to more liberal grading at their recently-opened centers in mainland China?

Offline bekiz

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2014, 02:09:45 AM »
looks like it is a new way to gain customers from NGC
by grading coins MS70 lot more people would send to PCGS than before

what happens if NGC strikes back? low standards for MS70s and lower grades?

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2014, 12:30:19 PM »

what happens if NGC strikes back? low standards for MS70s and lower grades?

From recent conversations with people at the highest levels at NGC I can confidently say that NGC is not interested in competing with any other company by lowering its own standards.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Birdman

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2014, 12:34:14 PM »
The other day, I looked at the PCGS population report for MCC and found it interesting that PCGS has recently been awarding a lot of 70 grades.

For example:
1995 5 Yn Silver panda Small Date Frosted Gap:  PCGS population of MS 70's recently jumped from 0 to 5 (NGC has graded 0 as MS 70)
2001 10 Yn Silver Panda Small D: PCGS population of MS 70's recently jumped from 0 to 12 (NGC has graded 3 as MS 70)
2013 1 Ounce panda coin expo: PCGS MS 70 population is 7 (NGC has graded 0 as MS 70)

Has anyone else noticed this? Could the large number of PCGS 70's be due to more liberal grading at their recently-opened centers in mainland China?

See previous discussion.  http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=9771.0

There once was a young woman who wanted to be popular, so she gave guys what they wanted.  Many guys did indeed wanted to see her at first, but her reputation suffered when the guys learned that they were not the only ones to receive what she was giving.   Another woman was tempted to also freely give the guys what they wanted, but she chose not to.  Years later, it was the woman who kept her high standards who all the guys wanted to marry.

Offline Birdman

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2014, 12:36:55 PM »
From recent conversations with people at the highest levels at NGC I can confidently say that NGC is not interested in competing with any other company by lowering its own standards.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

 N38

Offline Russ 736

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2014, 01:10:46 PM »
I am not as well connected at NGC as Peter is but I would agree completely with his take on this. NGC staff has told me that lowering their grading standards to match PCGS 70 numbers is NOT going to happen. This conversation was had in connection to the milk stained 2013 Is Panda Expo coins in particular but covered all of the MCC in general.

Russ

Offline davidt3251

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2014, 09:30:41 PM »
Even though NGC may seek to take the high road, there are so many collectors, especially new collectors, who arent confident at grading, and are seeking value, that they will buy a PCGS 69 over a nicer NGC 68 at the same price point.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2014, 01:15:49 AM »
Even though NGC may seek to take the high road, there are so many collectors, especially new collectors, who arent confident at grading, and are seeking value, that they will buy a PCGS 69 over a nicer NGC 68 at the same price point.

In that case why not buy NPGS ($2.50/coin to slab), or maybe ICG? In my experience their coins often sell for less than PCGS. I don't think that in the long run you can win in the grading game with a race to the bottom strategy of indiscriminately handing out high grades. If you could some of the now-extinct companies would be a giants. Eventually everyone tries to sell a coin and finds out what value a slab adds, if any, to their coins.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline bekiz

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2014, 01:50:23 AM »
for some coins it is impossible to differentiate ms69 from ms70
I'm not sure it is possible to deal with this situation.
I thought that before PCGS had much more strict grading rules and getting ms70 from them was close to impossible. Looks like current "grading news" is just a way to catch up with NGC on capturing the number of people who want ms70 and thus sending coins to the place that grants them with higher probability.

Offline davidt3251

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2014, 12:17:44 PM »
In that case why not buy NPGS ($2.50/coin to slab), or maybe ICG?


If you are asking "In that case why not buy NPGS ($2.50/coin to slab), or maybe ICG? " and you dont know the answer, for someone who is a consultant to NGC, thats shocking.

Let me ask you this. What does Wall Street provide America with?

The answer is liquidity. For their shares, bonds mainly.

But here we're talking MCC. And how much liquidity does NPGS or ICG have compared to PCGS and NGC? Almost zero.

This is a game about grabbing the top spot for the firm to provide investors with the most liquidity through grading. And PCGS is breaking out into the lead.

To pay $2.50 and expect to get increased liquidity is not reasonable, but to access the higher liquidity of a PCGS 69 instead of an NGC 68, for around the same grading cost, thats good value at PCGS.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2014, 12:49:57 PM »
The counter argument against liquidity boosting sale is ANACS and Home Shopping Network.  ANACS was one of the three big grading companies, but when they became closely aligned with HSN and start selling many high grade coins that way, the perceived grade inflation pretty much relegate ANACS to the rank of ICG.  It probably was profitable for ANACS for a while, but it didn't last.  Now eBay doesn't even recognize ANACS slab as graded coin.

Offline pandamania

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2014, 02:01:48 PM »
Then name of the game in coin grading is consistency and accuracy. NGC strives to meet these goals. They have repeatedly incorporated these standards as their primary objectives whether the coin was the first or last graded.

Whenever a grading service is perceived to have a sliding scale grading consistency their reputation will suffer as will the future value of their graded coins. This perception begs the question whether the coin I have graded now is the same as those graded in the past and those to be graded in the future, making it a tough coin to accurately value. Perhaps this is why NGC is the largest, most widely collected and perceived by many as the most consistent grading service.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2014, 09:31:22 PM »
If you are asking "In that case why not buy NPGS ($2.50/coin to slab), or maybe ICG? " and you dont know the answer, for someone who is a consultant to NGC, thats shocking.

Let me ask you this. What does Wall Street provide America with?

The answer is liquidity. For their shares, bonds mainly.

But here we're talking MCC. And how much liquidity does NPGS or ICG have compared to PCGS and NGC? Almost zero.

This is a game about grabbing the top spot for the firm to provide investors with the most liquidity through grading. And PCGS is breaking out into the lead.

To pay $2.50 and expect to get increased liquidity is not reasonable, but to access the higher liquidity of a PCGS 69 instead of an NGC 68, for around the same grading cost, thats good value at PCGS.

At the moment NPGS-graded coins are as liquid as the coins graded by any other company in China which is where it is being marketed. It may bring a different price than a NGC coin but there is no problem buying or selling it. The company may yet give more meaning to, "Buy the coin, not the label."

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline davidt3251

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2014, 10:05:41 PM »
Definition of 'Liquidity'

1. The degree to which an asset or security can be bought or sold in the market without affecting the asset's price. Liquidity is characterized by a high level of trading activity. Assets that can be easily bought or sold are known as liquid assets.

2. The ability to convert an asset to cash quickly. Also known as "marketability."

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/liquidity.asp

Who said we were just talking China? There are precisely zero NPGS coins on ebay.com right now. That is not the characteristic of a liquid market.

If the market for NPGS coins was liquid there would be many for sale on ebay as well as China. Why would anyone grade a coin for $2.50 that 99% of the people on ebay who know what a PCGS or NGC slab looks like wouldnt recognize? NPGS is an illiquid market except China. PCGS and NGC are liquid markets worldwide including China.

Its like US Treasury bonds which are a deep, liquid market with many buyers and sellers, many transactions, so lots of price data, tradeable in many cities in the world through a bank or broker.

Then Joe's Lemonade Stand of Nunavut's bonds, none for sale in New York or London, lots of sales in Nunuvut though. But how do you sell in Nunuvut? Not tradeable in many cities. So do you go to your state pension fund and tell them its ok to buy Joe's Lemonade Stand bonds because there is a market in Nunuvut?

The reason no Chinese sellers on ebay.com have NPGS coins for sale, while they have lots of PCGS and NGC,  is there is no market or a very limited market. That means its illiquid.



Offline PandaCollector

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Re: PCGS handing out a lot of 70 grades?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2014, 12:02:18 AM »
Definition of 'Liquidity'

1. The degree to which an asset or security can be bought or sold in the market without affecting the asset's price. Liquidity is characterized by a high level of trading activity. Assets that can be easily bought or sold are known as liquid assets.

2. The ability to convert an asset to cash quickly. Also known as "marketability."

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/liquidity.asp


Within China both conditions 1 and 2 are satisfied. The market there is more than 1 billion people. I would call that liquid. If a grading company is successful it will be easy to sell or buy the coins they grade. If the company fails then liquidity for its products is quite limited. NPGS is a new company. So far its products are liquid. I personally believe that in the long run quality and consistency will determine the success of a grading company and the marketability of its products.

Who said we were just talking China? There are precisely zero NPGS coins on ebay.com right now. That is not the characteristic of a liquid market.

The reason no Chinese sellers on ebay.com have NPGS coins for sale, while they have lots of PCGS and NGC,  is there is no market or a very limited market. That means its illiquid.

Do you know what eBay's market share in China is? Essentially zero. A decade ago they were swept away by a then much smaller Chinese competitor, Taobao, after losing $300 million. There are other measures of market share, or liquidity, than eBay.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com