Author Topic: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies  (Read 12163 times)

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Offline Hippanda

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God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« on: January 10, 2014, 03:43:14 AM »
There appears to be discrepancies on the listed weigths of the 1987 God of Longevity / Shou Xing Gold
and Silver medals

As listed from: http://china-mint.info/1987-chinese-coins.html

The God of Longevity gold medal    156.25g   
The God of Longevity silver medal  103.12g


But
Gold medal is clearly named on COA as 5 Tael.
Silver Medal is clearly named on COA as 3 Tael.

One Tael = 37.4 grams  

Hence 5 Tael Gold  should equal 5 x 37.4 = 187 grams gold,  vs 156 as listed
And    3 Tael Silver should equal 3 x 37.4 = 112 grams silver, vs 103 as listed

These are significant differences
Why the discrepancies?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Gilmore

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2014, 03:46:53 AM »
I believe the same happens with the 1989 god of wealth silver medal. NGC labels it as 3.3Oz but if I am not mistaken it is 3.3. Tael.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2014, 03:52:44 AM »
I believe the same happens with the 1989 god of wealth silver medal. NGC labels it as 3.3Oz but if I am not mistaken it is 3.3. Tael.

Sorry for the wrong information. The COA states 103.12 grams.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 04:20:53 AM by Gilmore »

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 04:02:07 AM »
Its odd The 1989 God of War and Wealth is not listed on China-mint.info

Does anybody have an non-slabbed 1989 God of War & Wealth to weigh to confirm that 103 grams?  
Does anybody have a non-slabbed Silver 1987 God of Longevity to weigh to confirm that 103 grams?

I can furnish weight of the gold Longevity (when I can find my scale)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 04:31:47 AM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Gilmore

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2014, 04:04:11 AM »

Offline Gilmore

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2014, 04:11:50 AM »
The COA photo was taken from Zhaoonline - http://www.zhaoonline.com/zhongguodangdaijinyinbi/2204363.shtml

The description of the medal in this auction is 1989年武财神-武财神像3.3两银章

两 is Tael, gram is 克 and Oz is 盎司. The COA states 103.12克


Everybody seems to be confused  :confused1:

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2014, 04:17:12 AM »
Yes, confused,

103 grams as listed for both 1987 and 1989 Silvers are neither 3 troy ozs (93 grams) nor 3 Tael (112 grans).
It is 3.3 Troy ozs however.

And the 156 grams for the 1987 gold is 5 troy ozs, not anywhere close to 5 Tael (187 grams).

Direct measurements done now to confirm actual weights would be valuable to determine if the listed weights are off,
or if these were originally deliberately mis-named and mal-marketed.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Gilmore

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2014, 04:19:28 AM »
The Chinese character for Tael (两) is engraved on the medal, probably the source of confusion?

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2014, 04:23:46 AM »
Good work Gilmore-
But that doesn't address why the 1987 Silver and Gold Medals claim weight of 3 and 5 Tael on their COAs if they are not.
If the listing in china-mint.info is to be believed they are 3.3 troy oz and 5 troy oz, respectively, but short of 3 and 5 Tael, so the COAs would be just plain wrong..

In one's hand, the 1987 Silver medals do not appear obviously heavier than the 1989 Silver, but they should be heavier by a little bit. There should be a bigger and more noticeable difference in the gold between 5 troy oz and 5 Tael.

When we actually can measure both silver and gold. we will know.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 04:45:21 AM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Gilmore

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2014, 04:28:34 AM »
In the case of the longevity both the COA and medal state the weight in the same units - 3 Tael (my Chinese is terrible so I hope I did not get it wrong).

You are right, only a scale will save us..

1987 Longevity medal with COA on Zhaoonline - http://www.zhaoonline.com/jinianxilie-yin/2360906.shtml

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2014, 04:39:53 AM »
Gilmore-
As always, great analysis!

I am hoping the listed weights are wrong, and that the medals are actually the heavier 3 and 5 Tael as stated.

Gold Medal:
Characters state "Five Tael", (see photo) so at this point until weighing them confirms,  my bet is that listing at china-mint.info is wrong (and other websites too) on both Longevity medals and they both may be heavier - in the case of gold: 6 oz would be correct and not 5 oz as listed.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 05:20:06 AM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2014, 01:25:04 PM »
To make it even more confusing, even an expert like Fwang seems to use "5 Tael" interchangeably with "5 oz"
in his descriptions of Huang Ruiyong's ranking:

★★★★  Religion   
1987 5 tael God of Longevity, 1989 5oz Guanyin, 1989 5 tael God of Wealth, 1989 5 tael God of War and Wealth


Huang Ruiyong seems to call them all "5 oz"

★★★★  Religion    1987 5oz God of Longevity, 1989 5oz Guanyin, 1989 5oz God of Wealth, 1989 5oz God of War and Wealth

I am not sure about the 1989 Gold God of War and Wealth (Zhao Gongming) and it would be good to see a COA if anybody can find one ( the Silver COA shows ounces not Tael) but the 1989 God of Wealth (Liu Hai Playing with Toad) which Fwang lists as 5 Tael is clearly stamped only "5 oz" right on the medal itself and not 5 Tael.

So the question seems to be why are only the 1987 Longevity medals alone denominated in Tael on their COAs ?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 02:09:28 PM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2014, 06:49:34 PM »
China mint may use the old system for tael which is 31.25gm. This was used for Imperial and republic silver dollars.

3.3 tael = 103.12 gm
5 tael = 156.25 gm

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2014, 07:54:52 PM »
That is just odd that they call the 1987 Gold Longevity 5 Tael, when it is actually the same as troy oz.

It is also not consistent because on the !987 Longevity Silver, that COA says 3 Taels, not 3.3.

Why they choose only this medal to designate this in Tael, and not the several other large medals of 1987 and 1989, and then choose to use a definition of Tael not currently used, is a strange mystery.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2014, 09:39:04 PM »
Hippanda,

Troy ounce = 31.10 gm

The COA for silver medal you posted is not the same one posted by gilmore which states the weight of the medal is 103.12 gm.

Pictures posted by you and gilmore are clearly shown  the weight of gold medal is 5 tael and silver medal is 3.3 tael

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2014, 10:06:00 PM »
So yes there it is- clearly-  overlooked that.

And yes I was going to post the photo from the book too, as that shows 156.25 grams for gold,
But its still the choice of designation of Tael that throws me.

5 troy ounces = 155.517384 grams which is what I accepted was close, due to rounding.
But One Tael at 1.2 troy ounces per Tael, x 5 Tael is 6 oz, and 187 grams.

The much larger range of 37.4 -37.8 grams of gold per Tael has been standard for a long time, since 1959.
"The Republic of China's standardised market tael (Chinese: 市两; pinyin: shìliǎng) of 31.25 g was modified by the People's Republic of China in 1959. " Wiki

I have old bars and old donuts which measured such, roughly 1.2 troy ounce per Tael, 37.4 grams per Tael
I just dont understand why they would break commonly accepted modern measurements
by such a wide margin.  I would understand if this were a reproduction of a particular ancient coin or medal
which was measured by a different lower Tael weight.
I think that is the answer in the end, that these were meant to evoke old days standards, even if they were then
not accurate at the time they were released in 1987.

And yes, the two Silver COAs shown earlier on the thread are different as one is for the 1987 Longevity and the other the 1989 God of Wealth.
The question is, why the difference? The 1987 COA says Tael, the book says 103.12 grams, same exact as the 1989 God of Wealth which does not say Tael on the COA but 103.12 grams.
I can accept it as such, but not understand the reason for the one-time difference.  It would have made more sense to actually increase the weight to make them modern higher Tael weight, thats all.

"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

barsenault

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2015, 05:27:39 PM »


Video of my new found longevity medal.
http://youtu.be/J2TnvBBSg8E

Offline pandamonium

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2015, 09:32:01 PM »
1987 God of Longevity is a awesome medal.    Here is my oddball Matte God of Longevity.    NGC will grade it but no COA or mint information.   I was told several big silver medals were struck in 1993 w/ very low mintage.  Notice there is no date and many other differences.......


http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8954.msg52288;topicseen

barsenault

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2015, 10:42:47 PM »
Very nice!! This one looks exactly like the one I have. LOL.  Except mine is proof.  Not sure of the mintage of mine, but yours is low.  That is great.  This one is one of my favorites now.  Just love it.  Wish I could get another one for 900.00.  I'd do it in a heartbeat. :-)

Offline pandamonium

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2015, 11:02:53 PM »
The 87 has 1800 mint and the 93 has 999.   The 93 is next to impossible to find.   I was told in 93 the big silver lady w/ dog was struck and some others i do not recall.   If anyone has information on them please post.   The God of Longevity is one of my favorite medals too.   $900 w/ box is a good buy....

barsenault

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2015, 11:06:57 PM »
The 87 has 1800 mint and the 93 has 999.   The 93 is next to impossible to find.   I was told in 93 the big silver lady w/ dog was struck and some others i do not recall.   If anyone has information on them please post.   The God of Longevity is one of my favorite medals too.   $900 w/ box is a good buy....

The 1987 seem to be hard to find too.  But I'm sure with 999, it has to be hard to find. :-)  I was wondering if it was the original box.  The COA inside too.  So, I'm very happy.  I know you are too. :-)  I wonder if that person who sold it to you is kicking himself. LOL.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2015, 09:20:38 AM »
Jay is/was a top dealer of rare Chinese as was posted on this forum earlier.    Looking back he sold/traded many rare medals when medals were not loved.   When cash is low, trade.    Hard to believe how many trades i made when the opportunity was there.   Look up some of his past sales maybe under Buy, Sell & Trade.........

barsenault

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2015, 09:24:20 AM »
Jay is/was a top dealer of rare Chinese as was posted on this forum earlier.    Looking back he sold/traded many rare medals when medals were not loved.   When cash is low, trade.    Hard to believe how many trades i made when the opportunity was there.   Look up some of his past sales maybe under Buy, Sell & Trade.........

yikes! one man's 'trash' is another man's treasure. :-)  You got some good treasure.  Me too. LOL.

barsenault

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2015, 09:26:15 AM »
Oh, and here are my recent videos posted on my youtube video.  I'll be adding more and more as the days approach. All kinds. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRxEF4GR8AyEA3arzH9549w

Offline pandamonium

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2015, 09:34:39 AM »
Ebay 350893685579  box/coa from a top dealer/member.   The articles i read say this is the year the Yuan rises in power so buying MCC is one of the best choices.   MCC collectors are way ahead of the curve.   When the sheeple understand the Yuan will be a top currency due to China's gold accumulation and US gold depletion, then the flood will begin into Chinese money.   Hopefully this year but maybe not, we will soon find out.......

barsenault

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2015, 10:07:00 AM »
I couldn't agree more with you pandemonium.  I think a lot of folks were expecting it to happen sooner, but they seem to be doing a good job at delaying the inevitable.  It may be a few more years out...who knows...but one thing smart money knows...it will happen eventually...and better to be 3 years early than 2 minutes too late. :-) 

Yep, that is the box and the COA I have.  I wish it had a medal inside for 900.00...I'd buy it. LOL.

barsenault

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2015, 10:12:44 AM »
By the way, I'm not sure that collectibles will be the main medal to be in when this transition happens, as much as say, a pure bullion coin like a panda or an perth lunar or kook or even eagles???

Offline pandamonium

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2015, 10:41:55 AM »
When the transition happens all bullion will see a parabolic rise in value.    MCC will be bullion on sterioids.   When the Yuan had little value no one wanted rare Chinese coins or MCC.  That will reverse.   When the USD goes down in value will the US rare coin market go down in value?   Unknown, as the Pricepedia states most all of the World's rare coins are seeing demand.   I do not see the Canadian or Australian dollar becoming the next World reserve currency.   I would rather own new issue, high mintage such as the 2015 common silver pandas then any other bullion.  So a mix of rare MCC and common silver pandas is a good choice.   I am no expert but a strong Yuan means a very strong Chinese coin market.    Wish i owned a 1987 Gold God of Longevity, WOW factor...........

barsenault

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2015, 11:16:13 AM »
Hey sounds good to me, as I have lots of pandas and lots of MCC. :-)  I will buy more of the 2015 bullion...will be my main staple in 2015.  Maybe that's why they left off weight and dollar amount (???).  The Chinese govt ain't dumb...I'm sure there is a purpose behind it...we may not know today, but we will in time. :-)  By the way, what do you think of the 1985 ANA Great Wall error medal?  Thanks.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2015, 12:00:09 PM »
I know very little about the Great Wall medals.   Do not own any.  They are the top choice on Huong Ruiyong's medal star list.    The Error medal is the 1 oz?   The 3.3 oz is more rare.   I do not know why they removed the weight or purity.   Maybe the 2013 or 14 is better than the 2015 silver panda?  You are right the Chinese are not stupid.  Did you know that there are more Christians in China today then Communists?   Look at France, that will soon be coming to the USA.   Putin w/ Snowden is going to release information that 911 was a inside job.   He has absolute proof.   The World is getting more interesting by the day so maybe the transition is close........

barsenault

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2015, 12:31:51 PM »
Interesting info...well, not about the 9/11 part. I've always known that it was an inside job.  Only those who have their head in the sand and up their arses believe that a few terrorists hijacked those planes.  Those buildings came down thru controlled demolition.  All of them!!  Anyway, I hope Snowden comes out with it...it's about time he confirms what many already knew, except the dumb, stupid sheeple.  I like the 2015 panda, and I think there is a reason they got rid of the weight and purity.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2015, 02:47:17 PM »
Good you know the obvious truth.   Beyond sad to see the upcoming collapse of the West.   All we can do to survive and thrive is to prepare ourselves and what better way then become a MCC addict?   (The wise man will prepare while the fools will pay a heavy price.)  This little market will roar.........