Author Topic: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies  (Read 11748 times)

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Offline Hippanda

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God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« on: January 10, 2014, 03:43:14 AM »
There appears to be discrepancies on the listed weigths of the 1987 God of Longevity / Shou Xing Gold
and Silver medals

As listed from: http://china-mint.info/1987-chinese-coins.html

The God of Longevity gold medal    156.25g   
The God of Longevity silver medal  103.12g


But
Gold medal is clearly named on COA as 5 Tael.
Silver Medal is clearly named on COA as 3 Tael.

One Tael = 37.4 grams  

Hence 5 Tael Gold  should equal 5 x 37.4 = 187 grams gold,  vs 156 as listed
And    3 Tael Silver should equal 3 x 37.4 = 112 grams silver, vs 103 as listed

These are significant differences
Why the discrepancies?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Gilmore

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2014, 03:46:53 AM »
I believe the same happens with the 1989 god of wealth silver medal. NGC labels it as 3.3Oz but if I am not mistaken it is 3.3. Tael.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2014, 03:52:44 AM »
I believe the same happens with the 1989 god of wealth silver medal. NGC labels it as 3.3Oz but if I am not mistaken it is 3.3. Tael.

Sorry for the wrong information. The COA states 103.12 grams.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 04:20:53 AM by Gilmore »

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 04:02:07 AM »
Its odd The 1989 God of War and Wealth is not listed on China-mint.info

Does anybody have an non-slabbed 1989 God of War & Wealth to weigh to confirm that 103 grams?  
Does anybody have a non-slabbed Silver 1987 God of Longevity to weigh to confirm that 103 grams?

I can furnish weight of the gold Longevity (when I can find my scale)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 04:31:47 AM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Gilmore

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2014, 04:04:11 AM »

Offline Gilmore

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2014, 04:11:50 AM »
The COA photo was taken from Zhaoonline - http://www.zhaoonline.com/zhongguodangdaijinyinbi/2204363.shtml

The description of the medal in this auction is 1989年武财神-武财神像3.3两银章

两 is Tael, gram is 克 and Oz is 盎司. The COA states 103.12克


Everybody seems to be confused  :confused1:

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2014, 04:17:12 AM »
Yes, confused,

103 grams as listed for both 1987 and 1989 Silvers are neither 3 troy ozs (93 grams) nor 3 Tael (112 grans).
It is 3.3 Troy ozs however.

And the 156 grams for the 1987 gold is 5 troy ozs, not anywhere close to 5 Tael (187 grams).

Direct measurements done now to confirm actual weights would be valuable to determine if the listed weights are off,
or if these were originally deliberately mis-named and mal-marketed.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Gilmore

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2014, 04:19:28 AM »
The Chinese character for Tael (两) is engraved on the medal, probably the source of confusion?

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2014, 04:23:46 AM »
Good work Gilmore-
But that doesn't address why the 1987 Silver and Gold Medals claim weight of 3 and 5 Tael on their COAs if they are not.
If the listing in china-mint.info is to be believed they are 3.3 troy oz and 5 troy oz, respectively, but short of 3 and 5 Tael, so the COAs would be just plain wrong..

In one's hand, the 1987 Silver medals do not appear obviously heavier than the 1989 Silver, but they should be heavier by a little bit. There should be a bigger and more noticeable difference in the gold between 5 troy oz and 5 Tael.

When we actually can measure both silver and gold. we will know.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 04:45:21 AM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Gilmore

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2014, 04:28:34 AM »
In the case of the longevity both the COA and medal state the weight in the same units - 3 Tael (my Chinese is terrible so I hope I did not get it wrong).

You are right, only a scale will save us..

1987 Longevity medal with COA on Zhaoonline - http://www.zhaoonline.com/jinianxilie-yin/2360906.shtml

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2014, 04:39:53 AM »
Gilmore-
As always, great analysis!

I am hoping the listed weights are wrong, and that the medals are actually the heavier 3 and 5 Tael as stated.

Gold Medal:
Characters state "Five Tael", (see photo) so at this point until weighing them confirms,  my bet is that listing at china-mint.info is wrong (and other websites too) on both Longevity medals and they both may be heavier - in the case of gold: 6 oz would be correct and not 5 oz as listed.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 05:20:06 AM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2014, 01:25:04 PM »
To make it even more confusing, even an expert like Fwang seems to use "5 Tael" interchangeably with "5 oz"
in his descriptions of Huang Ruiyong's ranking:

★★★★  Religion   
1987 5 tael God of Longevity, 1989 5oz Guanyin, 1989 5 tael God of Wealth, 1989 5 tael God of War and Wealth


Huang Ruiyong seems to call them all "5 oz"

★★★★  Religion    1987 5oz God of Longevity, 1989 5oz Guanyin, 1989 5oz God of Wealth, 1989 5oz God of War and Wealth

I am not sure about the 1989 Gold God of War and Wealth (Zhao Gongming) and it would be good to see a COA if anybody can find one ( the Silver COA shows ounces not Tael) but the 1989 God of Wealth (Liu Hai Playing with Toad) which Fwang lists as 5 Tael is clearly stamped only "5 oz" right on the medal itself and not 5 Tael.

So the question seems to be why are only the 1987 Longevity medals alone denominated in Tael on their COAs ?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 02:09:28 PM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2014, 06:49:34 PM »
China mint may use the old system for tael which is 31.25gm. This was used for Imperial and republic silver dollars.

3.3 tael = 103.12 gm
5 tael = 156.25 gm

Offline Hippanda

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2014, 07:54:52 PM »
That is just odd that they call the 1987 Gold Longevity 5 Tael, when it is actually the same as troy oz.

It is also not consistent because on the !987 Longevity Silver, that COA says 3 Taels, not 3.3.

Why they choose only this medal to designate this in Tael, and not the several other large medals of 1987 and 1989, and then choose to use a definition of Tael not currently used, is a strange mystery.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: God of Longevity 1987 weight discrepancies
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2014, 09:39:04 PM »
Hippanda,

Troy ounce = 31.10 gm

The COA for silver medal you posted is not the same one posted by gilmore which states the weight of the medal is 103.12 gm.

Pictures posted by you and gilmore are clearly shown  the weight of gold medal is 5 tael and silver medal is 3.3 tael