Topic: Ebay sellers´sales method?

[AllSong]

Hi everyone.

I have bought 6 different Panda coins, all MS69, from a dealer on ebay within the last 30 days. First 3 were as I hoped: Tip top! In the second batch, one of the 3 had a milk spot. Not major but visible without magnifying glass. 

The seller writes in the listing that "You might receive a different Cert Number than shown as we have more than one in stock which has been Certified Slabbed and Graded by PCGS as MS69". So of course, the picture in the listing is not the coin I will receive. I contacted the seller, wanting to hear if I could get one without the spot. The answer was "...the coin was taken from stock and is quite normal as over time Pandas get white spots or toning and we only mention when there are quite a few and are very visible."

My question is: should I accept it eventhough there is this spot? Or is it bad sales method and send back the coin and not buy from there again? Did I ask for it, by buying without seeing the actual coin?
Let me know what you think about it. It might help me get over my minor frustration 

[1668Chris]

You should return the coin.  A coin that develops a milk spot after grading is no longer a 69 grade.  The value of your coin is less than you paid for it.

[AllSong]

You should return the coin.  A coin that develops a milk spot after grading is no longer a 69 grade.  The value of your coin is less than you paid for it.

Thanks for your reply Chris.

I know it wouldn´t get the same grade today. Just feel stupid having to pay so much shipping fee... and I´m actually on the look out on some of his upcoming auctions,but not sure I dare risk it anymore.
I just wish I could trust getting what I pay for, but if seller is too lazy taking pictures for each coin, I guess it´s my own fault when  I take the shot...

Modify: Any idea how low a grade 1 small (yet visible with the eye) milk spot would lead to from a 69? 65 or even lower???

[Mirkkanen]

I would open a complaint against the seller for not disclosing that the coin he sold you had problems. Then, I would politely inform him that if he wants your continued business, that he should eat the shipping fees. It might not work, but you have very little to lose at this point. If the dealer is honest, he will at least consider it if you can convince him losing your business would be bad for HIS business.

[AllSong]

I would open a complaint against the seller for not disclosing that the coin he sold you had problems. Then, I would politely inform him that if he wants your continued business, that he should eat the shipping fees. It might not work, but you have very little to lose at this point. If the dealer is honest, he will at least consider it if you can convince him losing your business would be bad for HIS business.

He might just see me as a small fish (10 000 + sales)... but at least I will show, that I don´t stand by, watching my money being wasted. You have both helped me and given me courage to go for it haha Thanks guys!

[bekiz]

return the coin
leave negative feedback
everything is there for you

P.S. small fish - leave negative feedback for all coins you bought from him

[AllSong]

A little too harsh to leave negative feedback for all the coins, no? Or do you mean, if I leave negative feedback on the last 3 coins, it might still affect him/his business?

[bekiz]

A little too harsh to leave negative feedback for all the coins, no? Or do you mean, if I leave negative feedback on the last 3 coins, it might still affect him/his business?

potential buyers would know that when the guy says "you will receive similar coin" one might get coin with milk spots
this kind of attitude must be punished

if he doesn't pay for return shipping leave negative feedback for sure. This is totally his fault.

[Dr650rob]

I bought a pcgs ms70 2010sy5 off amazon and the coin was loaded with milk spots, is it possible that they all developed while slabbed? He exchanged it for me
I'd send the coin back thats bs when they don't use actual pics of the coins of take shitty pics hoping ppl won't notice imperfections
eBay needs to put some rules in place
Can you even leave neg feedback anymore? They deff made it more difficult, I'm guessing you gotta open a claim and all that bs to leave neg feedback

[Mirkkanen]

1) IMO, you must give the seller a chance to make the right choice and avoid escalation. You may threaten him with appropriate courses of action like leaving neg feedback, opening a case, openly discussion your unhappiness on this MCC forum, etc in order to help get what you want.

2) Maybe you should post the name of the eBay seller here to protect us from possible poor transactions from this same seller. I, for one, know I would not want to deal with this eBay member after reading your comments.

[AllSong]

1) IMO, you must give the seller a chance to make the right choice and avoid escalation. You may threaten him with appropriate courses of action like leaving neg feedback, opening a case, openly discussion your unhappiness on this MCC forum, etc in order to help get what you want.

2) Maybe you should post the name of the eBay seller here to protect us from possible poor transactions from this same seller. I, for one, know I would not want to deal with this eBay member after reading your comments.

I am digesting the tips you guys gave me and want to formulate a good answer, so he hopefully agrees on my termes. It is fortunately not too late for me to leave negative feedback.

I don´t like hanging out sellers without being sure they deserve it, but the more I think of it, he might just be one of those... his terms for returns are really not cool at will cost me $, so it´s really not worth it for me. Will however get back here as soon as I hear what he replys. Crossing fingers

[Gilmore]

I agree with what's been said. Return the coin and ask for a refund for the return shipping fees.


"Pandas get white spots or toning and we only mention when there are quite a few and are very visible."

Sellers should provide clear photos of the actual coins they sell and let the buyer decide what in his eyes is acceptable. To me, stock photos are unacceptable. I understand your frustration, AllSong.

[PandaOrLunar]

AllSong, so you passed the hazing initiation rituals.  Now you are truly part of the MCC club 

[jc888888888]

tough crowd:)   i would certainly give the seller an opportunity to fix it ,most seller,s do in my experience ..... before you crucify him:)

[AllSong]

Hmm, I don´t think I´ll be very happy with his/their way of fixing it 

Hi

I'm afraid the coin is certified slabbed and Graded by PCGS as MS69 which is what it has been graded as we do not grade coins as this is left up to the grading company that has certified the coin.
As already mentioned eventhough it clearly says in all our descriptions we do not accept returns for PCGS or NGC coins as the grading companies guarantee the coins themselves and we do not accept returns for Auction items we have said that if your unhappy with the coin feel free to return the coin as an act of good faith but I'm afraid we do not cover rerurn shipping also as mentioned in the description as we have sent an PCGS MS69 which is what you have received.
If helps the only other option we can offer is next time you purchase something from us we are willing to give a credit for £5 as an act of good faith but be aware spotting is a common problem with graded silver coins.
Obviously we are sorry you are unhappy and are doing our best to try and resolve the situation and feel free to let us know what you prefer.

With best wishes

That is only 1/3 of his shipping cost and his terms and explanation is a bunch of 

[Gilmore]

Sorry to hear that.

[jc888888888]

sorry to hear that also , gaining a customer would probably be more important than worrying about a few bucks lost on shipping charges for a prudent seller .............

[1668Chris]

Hmm, I don´t think I´ll be very happy with his/their way of fixing it 

That is only 1/3 of his shipping cost and his terms and explanation is a bunch of 

The response from the seller is unacceptable and you should open a case in ebay.  I also encourage you to post the sellers name here so we all can be aware of their sales practices.

If the seller posted a pic of a stock photo, you should have every right under ebay to ask for a full refund.  As this practice IMO is not acceptable.  Also, the seller is mistaken about the PCGS and/or NGC guarantee. They do not cover spotting that occurs after grading.  This is considered environmental damage. 

The coin you received is not a 69 grade with the spot and depending on how large the spot is, it could probably be a 67 at best.  To be honest, you will have a very difficult time reselling this coin in the future, and will probably be only worth half what you paid for it.  A picture would be helpful.

Please do not accept the sellers response.  This should not be your problem.

[AllSong]

A pic is in its place, correct. Should have uploaded in the first post, but now it´s weekend (=more time for a salary slave as myself)and I will try to upload some of my new MCCs 

Here is the coin

 

[digbird]

Allsong, send the seller a link to this thread. Maybe he will make the proper adjustment for you. He has no legs to stand on if he didn't warn you of milk/white spots of death at the time of the listing.

Sounds like he is just pawning off an inferior coin. A good dealer would just give you full refund or substitute for a better spot free coin with no extra shipping charges.   

 

[AllSong]

I am learning more & more.

Anyway, FYI the seller is thelondoncoincompany, PCGS Authorised Dealer and Members of the BNTA and ANA & specialists in buying, selling and grading coins from the UK and around the World

[bekiz]

I am learning more & more.

Anyway, FYI the seller is thelondoncoincompany, PCGS Authorised Dealer and Members of the BNTA and ANA & specialists in buying, selling and grading coins from the UK and around the World

bought coins from them but only graded ones
for raw coins I'd better buy from companies that do not do business by grading and selling the coins. They tend to grade the best and the rest go to ebay ungraded thus the condition of those ungraded ones are not that good.

[jc888888888]

It is ridiculous that this seller who otherwise has a good reputation is creating bad will over a 2009 ungraded panda I have bought from this seller and not had a problem HMMMMMMMMM  we are not talking about a astronomical sum of money here.

[AllSong]

It is/was  a graded MS69 2009...

[AllSong]

Here we´ve got a quite deceiving seller. What is "very rare" about silver plated replicas?

eb item 131091397784

Fortunately they have obvious differences to the real set, but still don´t like the listing.

[Canadiancoinguy]

Allsong, I'm sorry to say, but any seller who is lazy enough to post one picture for multiple items is a seller to avoid. When I buy on the bay, I am buying the coin that I see in the picture, plain and simple. You should have heeded the warning that he gave you right in the description, about "you might not get the coin pictured" but hey, live and learn.

The price of shipping this coin back to him is not a waste of money in my opinion. Rather it will serve to remind you to be dilligent when you are buying. Hope you settled the matter after all.

[BobW]

There are unfortunately more than a few sellers who do not reveal problems that are on the coins they sell. The problem has gotten worse the last few years. If the seller is unknown to you and maybe even if known to you, before bidding on an item, contact the seller and ask if the coin has any spots, scratches or other distractions/problems. Reputable sellers will respond to your question.

I have noticed lately that some sellers have stated in their listings that if the buyer is unhappy with their purchase, the buyer should return the item and the seller will refund the purchase price and the return shipping cost as well. May this trend have wings.

[PandaOrLunar]

Unfortunately, not all sellers are that good in taking full responsibility.  In some BIN situation, waiting for a response is not an option.

These sellers are short sighted and letting return shipping costing destroys a relationship that could benefit them in the long run.  Greed struck again.

[Contrapunctus]

You should return the coin.  A coin that develops a milk spot after grading is no longer a 69 grade.  The value of your coin is less than you paid for it.

That is not true, I had a NGC PR69 silver proof medal (dated 1988) that developed milk spots only AFTER grading and it is a PR69. Before I sent it to NGC, it doesn't have milk spots at all.

That means:
- For over 20 years, the proof medal was WITHOUT milk spots while in its original plastic capsule
- Milk spots only developed after I sent it to NGC for grading
- It returned to me with PR69 grade and with lots of milk spots all over
- That was the last time I ever send anything to NGC

[Mirkkanen]

Thread drift . . .

[KeyDate1/2ozPandas]

That means:
- For over 20 years, the proof medal was WITHOUT milk spots while in its original plastic capsule
- Milk spots only developed after I sent it to NGC for grading
- It returned to me with PR69 grade and with lots of milk spots all over
- That was the last time I ever send anything to NGC

It is common to have white spots develop on silver coins after an OMP coin is removed from air tight capsule.  For the coin you discussed above, if you had removed the silver coin yourself and let it sit in your house for 2 weeks exposed to the air, it too would have developed white spots.  Same goes for sending it to PCGS and letting them open it and exposing it for 2 weeks to air.  That is risk one takes when removing silver from an air tight capsule and exposing it to air, which reacts with the impurities on the surface of the coin and causes these milk spots.  For expensive large silver coins, I always pay for expedite service at NCS, which will remove the coin from the capsule and hopefully conserve it immediately thereby neutralizing the impurities before they have a chance to irreversibly react with the air.  

As for grading, it is possible to get PF69 with small white spots if everything else with the coin is perfect.  Also at the time of grading the coin may not have white spot but a 1-2 weeks later after the coins arrives at your house it may have developed a white spot.  

[1668Chris]

That is not true, I had a NGC PR69 silver proof medal (dated 1988) that developed milk spots only AFTER grading and it is a PR69. Before I sent it to NGC, it doesn't have milk spots at all.

That means:
- For over 20 years, the proof medal was WITHOUT milk spots while in its original plastic capsule
- Milk spots only developed after I sent it to NGC for grading
- It returned to me with PR69 grade and with lots of milk spots all over
- That was the last time I ever send anything to NGC

NGC did not cause the milk spots.  They existed on the coin in their omp state prior to your submission.  They only revealed themselves when the omp was opened and the impurities on the surface of the coin reacted.

Also, regardless of the grade assigned by NGC, my personal opinion is that a coin with milk spots will have less value vs. one that does not even if they are assigned the same grade.  Actually, I avoid buying any coins with milk spots like the plague.  I would just rather wait until a better example is available.

[jleary]

 

NGC did not cause the milk spots.  They existed on the coin in their omp state prior to your submission.  They only revealed themselves when the omp was opened and the impurities on the surface of the coin reacted.

Also, regardless of the grade assigned by NGC, my personal opinion is that a coin with milk spots will have less value vs. one that does not even if they are assigned the same grade.  Actually, I avoid buying any coins with milk spots like the plague.  I would just rather wait until a better example is available.

I agree with you Chris, If I had two ms69 coins sitting side by side I would pick the one without the milk spots. Even if the price was higher. I had a couple of 2011 MS69 silver pandas graded by PCGS that had milk spots, just sold them all on ebay.

[Canadiancoinguy]

I agree with Chris as well. I believe that milk spots are an existing issue from the time the coin was minted. Not all coins come sealed from the mint. In Canada some of our bullion coins are not mint wrapped/sealed and consequently the milk spots are easily detectable on our version of the panda, the Maple. I have seen hundreds if not thousands of bullion coins with milk spots. It is an oxydization for sure. In my opinion, it should only affect the grade on a proof coin as opposed to a MS grade coin simply because (and I know this is a contentious point amongst collectors) there are 150 year old coins that grade ms-65 and are as black as coal. The oxidization on the surface does not affect the quality of the coin.

My .02￠

[PandaOrLunar]

Bug the heck out of me that certain seller auction item coming near to the end and the current price is not what they wanted, cancel the item, and relist with the starting price of what they "wanted".  Why not just do it right the first time or list with a reserved price.  

All that time spend waiting for the item to end, I could be doing bid on something/someone else.

My P.O. 2 cents of the day.

[jwa1inv]

Cancelling an ongoing auction with actual bids already placed is
"bargaining in bad faith" and unacceptable practice in general.
I am bugged more often by obvious shill bidding, another form
of bargaining in bad faith. Bidders who incrementally bid up until
they get the high bid, then retract, are most likely shills for the
seller.
Buyer's protection from such things MIGHT help justify EBay's
high seller fees. for which the buyer pays up. The buyer loses
in bad faith bargains and pays up too much when he wins.
EBay is soft on these practices, however.

[bekiz]

Cancelling an ongoing auction with actual bids already placed is
"bargaining in bad faith" and unacceptable practice in general.

that is a response from some sellers that are 100% at risk when selling while buyers risk nothing

[funcoins]

I agree.  Once bids are placed the auction should be locked from the seller cancelling it.  The seller should set a minimum price if that is what they want.