Author Topic: Interesting white stains pattern  (Read 3537 times)

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Offline Gilmore

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Interesting white stains pattern
« on: November 14, 2013, 06:56:55 AM »
What happened here...  N20   It is so unique, I almost like it

source:
http://www.zhaoonline.com/jinianxilie-yin/2406140.shtml

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Interesting white stains pattern
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2013, 08:28:52 AM »
The image on NGC's site looks fine, no staining.  Personally, I have never had older silver coins develop white spots after being opened from OMP.  Generally, they either exist prior to grading in OMP or immediately appear after opening.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Interesting white stains pattern
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2013, 07:30:02 AM »
I usually send coins for conservation before grading. Several times last year I had staining developed after grading on some silver coins that were perfectly fine in OMP. That always happened when the turn around time was relatively long, 2-3 weeks or so. In other submissions where the coins were conserved and graded within short time I had problems at all. I don't know if it is just a coincidence, my bad luck, or something related to the amount of time the coins are exposed to air after conservation is complete and until they are being placed in holders. Any idea are the coins are being stored after conservation?

That unicorn has 'special' staining that highlights the frosted areas - around the unicorn, the Chinese characters, the flowers. Very strange.


Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Interesting white stains pattern
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2013, 08:33:33 AM »
My experience with white spots and/or milk spots and OMP is the following:

They either exist in OMP (double sealed) and are visible prior to submitting for grading, or they appear very soon after opening the OMP and being exposed to air.  I cannot recall any instance for me personally where white spots appear after I receive a coin that has been conserved and graded.  However you have to keep in mind that prior to NCS changing their position on conservation, I insisted that everything be conserved. Today that is not the case.  Silver is a very reactive surface and it is unfortunate that NCS will not conserve all silver for proper long-term preservation. :thumbdown:

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: Interesting white stains pattern
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2013, 09:54:06 AM »
My experience with white spots and/or milk spots and OMP is the following:

They either exist in OMP (double sealed) and are visible prior to submitting for grading, or they appear very soon after opening the OMP and being exposed to air.  I cannot recall any instance for me personally where white spots appear after I receive a coin that has been conserved and graded.  However you have to keep in mind that prior to NCS changing their position on conservation, I insisted that everything be conserved. Today that is not the case.  Silver is a very reactive surface and it is unfortunate that NCS will not conserve all silver for proper long-term preservation. :thumbdown:

IMHO, if a customer has requested and paid for NCS (conservation service from NGC), then it should be performed, NO IFS, ANDS, OR BUTS!!!!  In other words -- When I pay for 94 octane gasoline, I expect for 94 to be dispensed from the pump, and not 92 octane because the attendant feels that my car will run fine on 92 while still charging me for 94! NGC, please take this issue seriously. However, if NCS feels that conservation will degrade a coin, it is their obligation to notify the submitter and await their decision.

Offline davidt3251

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Re: Interesting white stains pattern
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2013, 11:09:30 AM »
I have had coins develop white spots after NCS. And I have also submitted coins from Europe to NCS, where there had been some light handling of the coins, only to find the fingerprint marks still on some coins.

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: Interesting white stains pattern
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2013, 11:15:05 AM »
I have had coins develop white spots after NCS. And I have also submitted coins from Europe to NCS, where there had been some light handling of the coins, only to find the fingerprint marks still on some coins.
Regarding your coins mentioned, did you verify that they actually were conserved? If yes, that is a shame. I have seen silver coins that actually went through NCS, come back in a slab with MORE spots and rinse-stains than pre-NCS. Go figure....     Someone needs to market a safe and effective home-version of NCS!

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Interesting white stains pattern
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2013, 05:36:56 PM »
What happened here...  N20   It is so unique, I almost like it

source:
http://www.zhaoonline.com/jinianxilie-yin/2406140.shtml

This is a new NGC holder for on-site grading inside China and can be found at zhaoonline.com. It was discussed recently.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9c36df0465e24780e829e803c794c0ee&topic=9670.0

The white cloud migrated from edge toward the center of the coin is typical caused by a defective seal. The moisture can easily go through the seal to deposit on the coin surface. It takes 5-10 years for the old (1990s) NGC holder to develop the toning around the edge. Clearly, there is a quality control issue in making those new holders as well as the sealing procedure. The only holder has a perfect seal is PCGS original green holder. I have not seen any toning of Morgan dollars in original PCGS holder after more than 20 years.

NCS conservation is a total waste of money, if the holder can not be sealed properly. Extra protection, such as Intercept, will help to retard the development of white cloud and toning.


Offline Gilmore

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Re: Interesting white stains pattern
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2013, 08:30:26 PM »
Thanks poconopenn. Holder with bad seal makes perfect sense. This also makes me believe that my assumption is maybe correct, that coins after conservation that were in "waiting for grading" status for 3 weeks or more (and therefore are exposed to air) would probably develop issues. Worst case I had was is few coins that were over a month in NCS and NGC, returned to me by express mail and all had rust like toning. And all of this within 2 weeks after grading.

NGC probably needs to improve holder's design to accommodate an o-ring along the edge.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Interesting white stains pattern
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2013, 09:33:02 PM »
Bad seal or not, keep in mind that NGC or PCGS holds are not air tight.  Compounded by extremely poor air quality in china and you can get some pretty dramatic results if you don't protect the coins

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Interesting white stains pattern
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2013, 10:12:50 PM »
You are absolutely right, Chris. In Taiwan, where I live now, the air quality and humidity can really harm coins very badly in relatively short time. Proper storage is a must here. Every coin I have is sealed in intercept bag with desiccant, even graded coins and OMP coins. I have some of your Coin Armour bags and love them.