Author Topic: What's wrong with this picture?  (Read 97973 times)

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Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #150 on: September 27, 2013, 10:14:57 AM »

( .. )

hc 10394 i send back ... he will look closer


One of them is missing an edge that I had cut to
free the coin in capsule--4365. The seal marks are of two
lengths it appears.
All three of these coins came in airtight capsules as well.
I will keep in mind who sold them to me when they
come back from grading and conservation.
If they come back grading poorly, then they may have been
picked over.
 
Thank you.

Offline GDG's

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #151 on: September 27, 2013, 10:40:49 AM »
silver proof medal w/OMP in description body then claims did not say medals were sealed.

Then it is NOT in original mint package. Simple as that. Deceptive or Fraudulent practice. Every buyer can judge for themselves. I have also bought from this seller. Maybe I won't anymore. I begin to understand why novice collectors are shy to buy China Modern Coins.

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #152 on: September 27, 2013, 11:32:26 AM »
btw.

eurokrem

+1

indeed .. very interesting

( .. )

hippanda

please excuse me :001_rolleyes:

i was wrong :blushing:

Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #153 on: September 27, 2013, 05:31:47 PM »
Quote
the last answer from the dealer

"Proof Medal w/OMP" and picture shows sealed medal.

OH: "Pleading ignorance is the last refuge of the craven and corrupt."

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #154 on: September 27, 2013, 06:16:03 PM »
...if u do not like, we can exchange for u...
I'm only sorry that I got caught.


...BTW, other distributors just cut the seal and sell the medals in capsule only...
Two wrongs don't make a right.


Hands up for full disclosure.

Offline comeaux

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #155 on: September 27, 2013, 08:04:17 PM »
This resealing BS is one reason that I don’t buy “OMP” and never will again.

The resealing issue has been debated many times before here on CCF and my stance has always been that it’s revolting regardless of who is doing it. It’s just another blackeye on our hobby.

High accolades to all of the members who have contributed to this thread with posted examples of chicanery. I’ve learned a lot and I’m sure many others have as well. 

Sadly in almost any collectibles hobby there will be those who attempt to deceive others for profit.   

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #156 on: October 01, 2013, 05:54:09 AM »
Yet ANOTHER example - this is an accelerating plague of deception and fraud. Who is doing this?  
This auction from Coinnext shows a 1990 Small Date and Large Date, the Small Date on the left is apparently resealed in the same "Faux" mint wrap as in so many coins now popping up including the one that started this thread the 2001.
(Note : the seal in the 1990 besides being the wrong pattern doesn't even match up on the side.)

So who here is connected well enough to ask Coinnext, Panda America and Apmex what their source is for these coins?
Why is Panda Will of Panda America silent? Seems some representative of these dealers should post here their answers and if this is going to be a continued or discontinued practice in light of the fact its now been exposed? Continued silence from them is just bad business.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-1990-5-Yuan-1-20-999-Gold-Pandas-both-in-Mint-Seal-Large-Small-Date-/321216490456?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item4ac9feabd8



988 Singapore 5 Singold 1/20 oz Year of the Dragon Gold Coin in Mint Seal as pictured.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-Singapore-5-Singold-1-20-oz-Year-of-the-Dragon-Gold-Coin-in-Mint-Seal-/321192711131?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item4ac893d3db&nma=true&si=lyVzbxWJwJpWtoSj3CVDEu9QIX4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557



Offline KMJ.Michael

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #158 on: October 01, 2013, 08:54:27 PM »
Dear CCF Members,

It's a bit surprising to me that I would make my first introduction to you all in response to such an odd topic, but it seems like I might be able to address some of the concerns regarding the Shanghai Ghetto program, but before getting to that, I'll offer a quick introduction.

My name is Michael Lertchitvikul, and along with Ken Park, a 20 year veteran of PCGS, and Justin Park, one of the leading young numismatists in US and Modern Chinese Coins, I am a co-founder of the KMJ Group.  We are a Christian, faith-centered firm that specializes primarily in investment quality coins, specifically, ultra-high grade and highest graded specimens in Vintage US, Chinese, and World Coins, as well as key MCC Rarities.  As someone who is ethnically Chinese, has Jewish Godparents, and has studied Jewish culture and Hebrew (I know my Shema!), I am particularly honored that my firm is one of the primary distributors of the Shanghai Ghetto Program.

As a small plug for Stacks Bowers, my father, Nirat Lertchitvikul, is their Director of Asian Operations and responsible for all things Asia-Pacific, including their Hong Kong Auction.  If you are ever looking to consign coins to an auction house, feel free to let me know and I'll be happy to refer you to him directly.

As many of you know, the Chinese mints have stopped sealing via the capsule/plastic pouch method for quite some time now.  As many MCC collectors have a strong preference for the former sealing procedure, I advised the co-designer of this program, Danny Spungen, to ask the mint to go back to the former sealing method.  Frankly, the method of sealing really had zero significance to my company, as we are almost exclusively concentrating on the distribution of certified SGMs, but the suggestion was made to try to cater to the preferences of the MCC community.

Unfortunately, the sealing job done by the Shanghai Mint was a completely inadequate one, with many of the plastic sheets left improperly or partially sealed.  There were sheets of SGMs that that had extremely poor internal sealing such that several SGMs would slide out of their slot into one pouch.  When delivered, Danny saw the issue and  took it upon himself to personally purchase a sealing machine (I think he spent upwards of $7,000) so that he could properly secure the SGMs in place and protect them from bouncing against each other when transported.  There were several opportunities to reseal the sheets using more deceptive methods that would have made it appear as if they were perfectly sealed, but as there was no intent to deceive, they were sealed in a way that the differences to the original sealing were abundantly apparent.

I understand that some customers may be upset that they are buying a product that was not perfectly packaged according to their standards, and I also realize that full disclosure about all the headaches Danny had to put up with would have been appreciated earlier rather than later, but I hope the MCC community understands that there were no malicious attempts to deceptively reseal the product.  Going forward, I think I will suggest to Danny that it would probably be best to just have the mint ship out the coins in the tray-style packaging that they have been using over the past few years and completely avoid the drama surrounding sealed and resealed pouches!

If any of you would like to contact Danny himself to verify this account of our product, he is available for contact directly at Danny@whynotcollectibles.com.  Additionally, if there are ever any concerns with any project that my company is associated with, I would be more than happy to field any questions or concerns regarding that program directly.  You are welcome to contact me at Michael@theKMJGroup.com -  with any luck, I'll be able to spare you from all the rampant speculations on what kind of foul play may be taking place.  I trust that with transparency, we can reintroduce some of the joy back into collecting!

Best regards,

Michael Lertchitvikul
Chief Operations Officer
The KMJ Group

Offline Birdman

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #159 on: October 01, 2013, 09:07:58 PM »
Dear CCF Members,

It's a bit surprising to me that I would make my first introduction to you all in response to such an odd topic, but it seems like I might be able to address some of the concerns regarding the Shanghai Ghetto program, but before getting to that, I'll offer a quick introduction.

My name is Michael Lertchitvikul, and along with Ken Park, a 20 year veteran of PCGS, and Justin Park, one of the leading young numismatists in US and Modern Chinese Coins, I am a co-founder of the KMJ Group.  We are a Christian, faith-centered firm that specializes primarily in investment quality coins, specifically, ultra-high grade and highest graded specimens in Vintage US, Chinese, and World Coins, as well as key MCC Rarities.  As someone who is ethnically Chinese, has Jewish Godparents, and has studied Jewish culture and Hebrew (I know my Shema!), I am particularly honored that my firm is one of the primary distributors of the Shanghai Ghetto Program.

As a small plug for Stacks Bowers, my father, Nirat Lertchitvikul, is their Director of Asian Operations and responsible for all things Asia-Pacific, including their Hong Kong Auction.  If you are ever looking to consign coins to an auction house, feel free to let me know and I'll be happy to refer you to him directly.

As many of you know, the Chinese mints have stopped sealing via the capsule/plastic pouch method for quite some time now.  As many MCC collectors have a strong preference for the former sealing procedure, I advised the co-designer of this program, Danny Spungen, to ask the mint to go back to the former sealing method.  Frankly, the method of sealing really had zero significance to my company, as we are almost exclusively concentrating on the distribution of certified SGMs, but the suggestion was made to try to cater to the preferences of the MCC community.

Unfortunately, the sealing job done by the Shanghai Mint was a completely inadequate one, with many of the plastic sheets left improperly or partially sealed.  There were sheets of SGMs that that had extremely poor internal sealing such that several SGMs would slide out of their slot into one pouch.  When delivered, Danny saw the issue and  took it upon himself to personally purchase a sealing machine (I think he spent upwards of $7,000) so that he could properly secure the SGMs in place and protect them from bouncing against each other when transported.  There were several opportunities to reseal the sheets using more deceptive methods that would have made it appear as if they were perfectly sealed, but as there was no intent to deceive, they were sealed in a way that the differences to the original sealing were abundantly apparent.

I understand that some customers may be upset that they are buying a product that was not perfectly packaged according to their standards, and I also realize that full disclosure about all the headaches Danny had to put up with would have been appreciated earlier rather than later, but I hope the MCC community understands that there were no malicious attempts to deceptively reseal the product.  Going forward, I think I will suggest to Danny that it would probably be best to just have the mint ship out the coins in the tray-style packaging that they have been using over the past few years and completely avoid the drama surrounding sealed and resealed pouches!

If any of you would like to contact Danny himself to verify this account of our product, he is available for contact directly at Danny@whynotcollectibles.com.  Additionally, if there are ever any concerns with any project that my company is associated with, I would be more than happy to field any questions or concerns regarding that program directly.  You are welcome to contact me at Michael@theKMJGroup.com -  with any luck, I'll be able to spare you from all the rampant speculations on what kind of foul play may be taking place.  I trust that with transparency, we can reintroduce some of the joy back into collecting!

Best regards,

Michael Lertchitvikul
Chief Operations Officer
The KMJ Group

Welcome to the forum.  I've purchased several raw, old Asian coins from your father over the years.  They all graded authentic with problem-free surfaces.

Thank you for sharing this piece of the story regarding the sealing.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #160 on: October 01, 2013, 09:36:11 PM »
KMJ.Michael,
Thank you for your post and welcome to CCF!
 
I first read about the Shanghai Ghetto story in Peter's PricePedia.  It is both poignant and heart warming story.  I thank you and Danny Spungen for shine a bright light on this little-known but very significant history.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #161 on: October 01, 2013, 11:33:46 PM »
Michael,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for the clarification.

Please verify if the matching numbered gold and silver medal sets were sealed at Shanghai Mint and the resealed package is only for “some” individual 1 oz silver medal. The seal pattern of the gold  and silver set appears to be identical to the 2001 silver 1 oz panda, the last year that silver panda produced at Shanghai Mint.


Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #162 on: October 01, 2013, 11:58:40 PM »
Michael,
Thank you for giving us the history behind the Shanghai Ghetto program coin seals.
It is understandable and not surprising this occurred.
It is sad that the timing of the release would coincide with the information about fraudulent resealing of earlier MCC and possibly bring confusion between reputable members of the numismatic community and those who are less so.
As you have possibly been victimized so too are all legitimate dealers, collectors and investors of MCC.
I suspect the damage being done has only began to show it's ugly head... how far the rot goes depends on how fast the offenders can be stopped.
I don't understand the deafening silence from those who would be leaders in the industry... I can only assume they have been compromised and this cancer may be fatal.

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #163 on: October 02, 2013, 01:55:13 AM »
michael

thanks

btw

(I think he spent upwards of $7,000)

 :(

you'd have to ask mr xu hong
he would probably. can deliver better work and cheaper also determined.  :001_rolleyes:
.
we love double-backed new issues ...
only to protect us ... you call it "cherry picking".

best regards, wg

p.s.:everything was perfect :cursing:
encapsulate accurate and pvc free plastic

Offline KMJ.Michael

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #164 on: October 02, 2013, 02:49:28 AM »
Welcome to the forum.  I've purchased several raw, old Asian coins from your father over the years.  They all graded authentic with problem-free surfaces.

Thank you for sharing this piece of the story regarding the sealing.

Hopefully I'll be able to live up to my dad's reputation!  Also, I think you met our team back at the FUN show...  Justin specifically mentioned remembering you stopping by!

KMJ.Michael,
Thank you for your post and welcome to CCF!
 
I first read about the Shanghai Ghetto story in Peter's PricePedia.  It is both poignant and heart warming story.  I thank you and Danny Spungen for shine a bright light on this little-known but very significant history.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it is an absolute blessing and honor to be involved in the Shanghai Ghetto Memory project.  It has been really an amazing opportunity for my firm to be a part in the distribution of a product that has truly significant historical meaning, not to mention one with a rarity that we can truly stand behind as an investment firm.  I personally love telling the story to anyone and everyone who'll listen, investor, collector, customer, or simply curious child - being ethnically Chinese with such strong ties to Jewish culture, I really feel like this program is literally me on gold and silver planchets!

Michael,
Thank you for giving us the history behind the Shanghai Ghetto program coin seals.
It is understandable and not surprising this occurred.
It is sad that the timing of the release would coincide with the information about fraudulent resealing of earlier MCC and possibly bring confusion between reputable members of the numismatic community and those who are less so.
As you have possibly been victimized so too are all legitimate dealers, collectors and investors of MCC.
I suspect the damage being done has only began to show it's ugly head... how far the rot goes depends on how fast the offenders can be stopped.
I don't understand the deafening silence from those who would be leaders in the industry... I can only assume they have been compromised and this cancer may be fatal.

Unfortunately, in any market, there are always unethical ways to take abuse a commodity.  My firm is entirely against all kinds of deceptive practices, including the resealing coins that were raw to deceive customers into believing that they were untampered OMP coins.  It is our stance as a firm that we're not in the plastic business, nor are we in the label business, we're simply in the coin business.  As such, when making purchases, when purchasing material, we're not looking at the packaging or the slab it comes in, we're looking at the coin itself.  We're particularly fortunate to have an ex-PCGS grader, arguably one of the top two counterfeit detectors of Chinese Material, and 20 year grading veteran in Ken...  If you're ever at a show that we attend and ever have questions about the quality of coins, please feel free to swing by our table, we'd be more than happy to give you our opinion on what we see!


Please verify if the matching numbered gold and silver medal sets were sealed at Shanghai Mint and the resealed package is only for “some” individual 1 oz silver medal. The seal pattern of the gold  and silver set appears to be identical to the 2001 silver 1 oz panda, the last year that silver panda produced at Shanghai Mint.


Honestly, I am not certain how well the mint sealed the gold and silver medal sets, Danny sent my company's entire allotment of SGMs directly to NGC for certification.  Frankly, I would not be surprised if the gold coins had the same sealing issues as the silver ones - despite that, I can assure you that the integrity of the product was by no means compromised by any of the sealing issues.

michael

thanks

btw

(I think he spent upwards of $7,000)

 :(

you'd have to ask mr xu hong
he would probably. can deliver better work and cheaper also determined.  :001_rolleyes:
.
we love double-backed new issues ...
only to protect us ... you call it "cherry picking".

best regards, wg

p.s.:everything was perfect :cursing:
encapsulate accurate and pvc free plastic

I'm all for trying to do whatever I can to protect the collectors and investors out there - personally, I always recommend that people submit any coins worth protecting to be certified.  Ultimately, it's the best way to both protect your coin and guarantee your investment as genuine.

---


It's been quite an adventure over this past half year - there was more than a little bit of political intrigue surrounding this project.  Having a Chinese mint product officially commemorating a Jewish theme was no small task...

Interesting note:

The certificate of authenticity is written in both English and Chinese.

In the English version, it states, "I am Sara, a Jewish girl from Europe. In the 1930s my future was shadowed by the rise of the Nazis. My family and I were forced to abandon our happy lives and beautiful home to escape the Shoah..."

In the Chinese version, it reads similarly, but a key word that had to be removed.  It reads, "I am Sara, a girl from Europe..."

There's quite a few more interesting stories about all the challenges that had to be overcome in the production of the SGMs - Danny regularly says that he could write a book about all of it.  As this is the first of a five year series, I'll have to save some of the other interesting things he shared with me for when we move on to next year's series!