Author Topic: What's wrong with this picture?  (Read 95628 times)

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Offline Hippanda

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What's wrong with this picture?
« on: September 12, 2013, 11:47:14 AM »
What's wrong with this picture?

"2001 1 oz Gold Chinese Panda Coin - Sealed in Plastic
Buy with confidence from APMEX on eBay!"
                             
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline trozau

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2013, 12:11:20 PM »
Soft plastic pouch looks to be 80s circa seal. Tight and close to the coin. Re-seal?
trozau (troy ounce gold)
honi soit qui mal y pense

gold - the barbarous relic!

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2013, 01:01:46 PM »
Yes, wrong plastic for 2001.
It's either a reseal, or a photoshop (which Apmex has oddly, been known do to in the past)


("Buy with confidence from APMEX on eBay!")  

Foot: meet self-shot bullet
                              
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2013, 01:17:34 PM »

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2013, 01:55:19 PM »
So the lack of obvious "ironed" sealed edge means someone now has replicated the old seal patterns in a sealing machine?

If so, buyers of OMP now need to be on the alert and now confirm other subtle clues confirming the integrity of OMP coins.

Implications are that a coin may have been once submitted for grading, received a lower than desired grade, and now seller is trying to "recycle" and pass off as pristine / (not yet graded) a coin in an intentionally misleading / fraudulent plastic mint wrap

.http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-1-oz-Gold-Chinese-Panda-Coin-Sealed-in-Plastic-/111168216927?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item19e2245f5f


From WG : " fake folie"


« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 02:24:29 PM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2013, 08:14:13 PM »
So the lack of obvious "ironed" sealed edge means someone now has replicated the old seal patterns in a sealing machine?

If so, buyers of OMP now need to be on the alert and now confirm other subtle clues confirming the integrity of OMP coins.

Implications are that a coin may have been once submitted for grading, received a lower than desired grade, and now seller is trying to "recycle" and pass off as pristine / (not yet graded) a coin in an intentionally misleading / fraudulent plastic mint wrap

.http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-1-oz-Gold-Chinese-Panda-Coin-Sealed-in-Plastic-/111168216927?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item19e2245f5f


From WG : " fake folie"




Wrong mint for the coins and/or the pouch pattern isn't quite right. Even so, it's been dangerous to buy "OMP" coins based on their pouches for awhile due to resealing - unless you are certain the coins have been in storage for many years. Even so it was never a sure thing as there are many reports that mint employees resealed coins for favored people.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 11:55:28 AM »
..





Offline wg

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Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2013, 08:49:35 AM »
Wrong mint for the coins and/or the pouch pattern isn't quite right. Even so, it's been dangerous to buy "OMP" coins based on their pouches for awhile due to resealing - unless you are certain the coins have been in storage for many years. Even so it was never a sure thing as there are many reports that mint employees resealed coins for favored people.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

hello peter,

btw. favored people ... do you think the other p.a. know more/can help us
 above/with this re-sealing story?

thanks

Offline eurokrem

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2013, 11:28:28 AM »
@wg

well, there are more of those fake pouch coins, all of them are from USA big Coin dealer ( not ebay shop ! ) , i have bills and customs protocol for those coins, its clear, those fake pouches are coming from USA  N32

1/20oz Panda

2004 179$
2001 175$
1990 135$
1989 149$

those Prices are OK for OMP Pandas but for those fake sealed coins is this no go, colleague collector has buyed those coins, for me it is clear, i dont buy any coins from USA dealers ever again, Ebay is better, its a scandal  N26

Those people they are running this business should be ashamed.


У добру је лако добар бити, на муци се познају јунаци,
 Владика Петар II Петровић Његош 1813—1851

It is easy to be good while it is good, the trouble reveals the heroes.
Vladika Petar II Petrović Njegoš 1813-1851

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2013, 11:50:08 AM »
In three years buying pandas in my local market, I've never bought a single "fake" OMP panda. The couple I did buy were on eBay, and the sellers were not domestic. And that was first 6 months, at the time I didn't know which are real or fake.

Offline Birdman

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2013, 12:00:53 PM »
I read this thread right before I opened up a recent purchase from a major US dealer.  It looks like I received another reseal where they slide the coin into an "OMP" that they've saved.  I've bought from this dealer many times before, so I don't think they did it, but I think somebody resealed it and sold it to them.  This is annoying and it is the second time it has happened to me (different dealer).  N1

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8521.0

The 1992 g1/4 "OMP" that I received today was probably an MS67 or MS68 that was cracked out of the holder, resealed, and sold as "OMP."

Is the "OMP" even correct for this 1992?

Offline GDG's

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2013, 12:16:06 PM »
@wg

well, there are more of those fake pouch coins, all of them are from USA big Coin dealer ( not ebay shop ! ) , i have bills and customs protocol for those coins, its clear, those fake pouches are coming from USA  N32

1/20oz Panda

2004 179$
2001 175$
1990 135$
1989 149$

those Prices are OK for OMP Pandas but for those fake sealed coins is this no go, colleague collector has buyed those coins, for me it is clear, i dont buy any coins from USA dealers ever again, Ebay is better, its a scandal  N26

Those people they are running this business should be ashamed.



While I certainly understand your frustration not all U.S. dealers are alike. There are many excellent U.S. dealers selling MCC. The unscrupulous dealers unfortunately do exist. The forum has discussed one particular major U.S. dealer recently who I'm sure many (including myself) would NEVER deal with again. The only way to send a message to those who were never taught that "honesty is the best policy" is to shut them out 100% even if it's a coin you really need or want. BTW, who is this dealer? PM me if you don't wish to put on forum. I think I know who though.

Offline eurokrem

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2013, 12:24:22 PM »
@Birdman

Pouch is right for 1992, i have 1/20oz in same pouch but mines is not opened, somebody has messed with this pouch.
У добру је лако добар бити, на муци се познају јунаци,
 Владика Петар II Петровић Његош 1813—1851

It is easy to be good while it is good, the trouble reveals the heroes.
Vladika Petar II Petrović Njegoš 1813-1851

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2013, 03:24:52 AM »
@wg

well, there are more of those fake pouch coins, all of them are from USA big Coin dealer ( not ebay shop ! ) , i have bills and customs protocol for those coins, its clear, those fake pouches are coming from USA  N32

1/20oz Panda

2004 179$
2001 175$
1990 135$
1989 149$

those Prices are OK for OMP Pandas but for those fake sealed coins is this no go, colleague collector has buyed those coins, for me it is clear, i dont buy any coins from USA dealers ever again, Ebay is better, its a scandal  N26

Those people they are running this business should be ashamed.




we approach the source .. i am sure it will not be long. ;)

regards

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2013, 03:48:43 AM »
Is this OMP legit or?

I have only seen 2001-d in Shenzen (photo 1). Legit

2001 regular (no D, for export) in Shanghai. (Photo 2 and 3) Legit

But its this last photo, of "D" type - of "sheet" "looks" like Shanghai? Or is it made-up? Number of plastic nubs does not seem equal- off by a few. Does that matter?
Is paper real?  (Photo 4)
Were 2001-D made minted or wrapped in Shanghai wrap?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-10-pcs-China-1-20oz-G20Y-gold-panda-coin-with-D-mark-/271268894824?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item3f28e2d868
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 04:23:47 AM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2013, 04:39:36 AM »
This information shows 2001-D only made at Shenzhen Guobao Mint (GB), not Shanghai Mint (SH)
Maybe this information is incorrect?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2013, 07:32:11 AM »
Looks like a case of FMP to me....
*FauxMP™

 :001_tt2:

Offline eurokrem

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2013, 10:47:20 AM »
hmm, this discussion is very interesting,

 in past there was issue about resealed coins and seller was a Chinese business man from china, now it is an USA Firm and nobody gives any attention about it, instead there are Pictures of allegedly fake pouches from ( again ) Chinese seller in attempt to camouflage those fake OMP from USA.

very interesting indeed   N67

У добру је лако добар бити, на муци се познају јунаци,
 Владика Петар II Петровић Његош 1813—1851

It is easy to be good while it is good, the trouble reveals the heroes.
Vladika Petar II Petrović Njegoš 1813-1851

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2013, 12:47:46 PM »

eurokrem

+1

indeed .. very interesting

xu hong

sorry ...  -1 :cursing:
i thought those times are over. :(

Offline GDG's

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2013, 01:05:53 PM »
At the very least any seller should post that coin is in a "RESEALED" pouch. If that isn't stated I believe it is deceitful. Everyone should contact ebay about this practice.

In an email chat with a very reputable dealer everyone here knows I had mentioned how I had little luck getting a 69 with certain coins.
His reply "Many of the OMP that are left are lesser quality as well." I think he is dead on. I think we may be seeing lower grade coins cracked out, resealed and sold as OMP. JMHO.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2013, 01:21:00 PM »
Yes.  For that reason I am very hesitant these days to buy
coins in OMP from dealers who also send in coins for grading.
One has to ask why didn't they have that one graded ?

It used to be better odds getting good coins in OMP from older
Private collections.  Now sadly the quality is deteriorating
from private collectors too, as poorer coins in OMP are getting
passed around.
Still, the outright deception of sellers going through the cost
and trouble of Fabricating fake OMP goes beyond
even resealing a coin in its original OMP.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wittu

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2013, 02:37:03 PM »
eurokrem

+1

indeed .. very interesting

xu hong

sorry ...  -1 :cursing:
i thought those times are over. :(

...but we finally will come to the truth!  :001_tt2:
And YES: i thought these times were over, too! Especially in this mentioned  case  N10 i really am disappointed!!!

But there seem to be even more cases we have to be afraid of :cursing:

wittu  N48

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2013, 02:44:25 PM »

 in past there was issue about resealed coins and seller was a Chinese business man from china, now it is an USA Firm and nobody gives any attention about it, instead there are Pictures of allegedly fake pouches from ( again ) Chinese seller in attempt to camouflage those fake OMP from USA.


You're kidding, right?

If not, you are just 100% wrong in that statement. Who are you saying is trying to camoflage anything?  Nobody I see, including me since I posted both, is trying to "camouflage" fake OMP from USA. Recall it was my original posting questioning apparent Fake OMP listed by APMEX that started this whole thread? Then WG contributed many more photos of obvious fake OMP being sold, and we dont know if the sellers are the fake sealers, or if they just pass them on unknowingly, right?  And I questioned the 2001-D, asking if the Shanghai Wrap is legitimate since all info I have seen questions that.  So if 2001-D came in Shanghai Mint wrap, fine, that is what I am trying to learn.  Maybe someone with knowledge will confirm that. All information I have researched so far says no, but hey, thats why its interesting.  I would Like to know it came in Shanghai wrap as it would suggest the possibility of new valuable varieties. I was ready to buy, until closer scrutiny brought up unsettling similarities with the obvious fake plastic wrap and / or seals.
Otherwise it is open to question, if this wrap is legit or fake.
 I don't care WHO is doing it.  American dealer, European dealer, Chinese dealer, or no dealers, just shady small timer who give to dealers.  Fake, manufactured OMP rises to a whole higher level of deception in my opinion, over just re-sealing original mint plastic.  That was justified by the argument of opening the OMP, heat- treating the coins to remove red spots, then re-sealing in original plastic to give customers a nicer coin.
What is the justification for having a fake plastic sealer made to try to duplicate the original plastic seal pattern, if not to deceive buyers into thinking they are getting OMP?
Thsi is not a matter of WHO is doing it, American seller, Chinese seller, or European seller.
This is a matter of principle. If it is deceipt or ends up in a buyer being deceived, it is fraud and wrong.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wittu

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2013, 02:50:15 PM »
Hippanda,

i`m not sure...but i think eurokrem didn`t refer it on YOU.

We really try to find out the truth, about these awful things. Especially wg is trying this FOR YEARS (us german collectors do profit from his work, knowledge and honesty very much).

Best wishes,
wittu  N48

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2013, 02:59:56 PM »
Since eurokrem posted this:


 .. instead there are Pictures of allegedly fake pouches from ( again ) Chinese seller in attempt to camouflage those fake OMP from USA.


and I posted the pictures, yes, wittu, there is no doubt he was "referring it on" me, but incorrectly.

Again, the issue is Integrity. Is it ok for any seller or every seller to not have it?
I believe WG thinks not.  I think not.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline GDG's

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2013, 03:14:50 PM »
Hippanda

>>>I don't care WHO is doing it.  American dealer, European dealer, Chinese dealer, or no dealers, just shady small timer who give to dealers.  Fake, manufactured OMP rises to a whole higher level of deception in my opinion, over just re-sealing original mint plastic.  That was justified by the argument of opening the OMP, heat- treating the coins to remove red spots, then re-sealing in original plastic to give customers a nicer coin.
What is the justification for having a fake plastic sealer made to try to duplicate the original plastic seal pattern, if not to deceive buyers into thinking they are getting OMP?
Thsi is not a matter of WHO is doing it, American seller, Chinese seller, or European seller.
This is a matter of principle. If it is deceipt or ends up in a buyer being deceived, it is fraud and wrong.<<<


That is it in a nutshell. I think almost everyone agrees with you. BTW great digging out those pics of pseudo OMP. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2013, 03:34:06 PM »
Thanks GDG-

I still want to believe in my heart of hearts the 2001-D in the Shanghai wrap is somehow legit.

Do any of the top level collectors of OMP here know?  WG?  Poconopenn?  PA?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline eurokrem

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2013, 03:39:14 PM »
 @Hippanda

you are near Heart-attack by viewing Pouch of 2001D in good looking condition and without any Evidence that those coins were not in Shanghai minted but about 4 ( four ) coins in absolutely and without any doubt fake OMPs selling from big USA dealer you don't loose a word  N4

are you kidding ?

that's why i think this thread is very interesting, you could easily recognise peoples real purposes in such matters.

this kind of detour is not very sophisticated, sorry, but your posts says one and your doings something else.

with your long and heartbreaking post where you are attacking me you don't achieve anything and who is selling those coins in Fake OMP is no secret more in Germany, but due to big influence of this dealer nobody in USA dares to speech about.

I have saw this kind of game many times in my life.


so, you are free to give me a bad karma point  :lol: N27 N25


 
У добру је лако добар бити, на муци се познају јунаци,
 Владика Петар II Петровић Његош 1813—1851

It is easy to be good while it is good, the trouble reveals the heroes.
Vladika Petar II Petrović Njegoš 1813-1851

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2013, 03:48:40 PM »
@Hippanda

you are near Heart-attack by viewing Pouch of 2001D in good looking condition and without any Evidence that those coins were not in Shanghai minted but about 4 ( four ) coins in absolutely and without any doubt fake OMPs selling from big USA dealer you don't loose a word  N4

are you kidding ?

that's why i think this thread is very interesting, you could easily recognise peoples real purposes in such matters.

this kind of detour is not very sophisticated, sorry, but your posts says one and your doings something else.

with your long and heartbreaking post where you are attacking me you don't achieve anything and who is selling those coins in Fake OMP is no secret more in Germany, but due to big influence of this dealer nobody in USA dares to speech about.

I have saw this kind of game many times in my life.


so, you are free to give me a bad karma point  :lol: N27 N25


  

I am gathering there is a language barrier here.  Otherwise you are not making sense.
I AM the one who originated this thread and pointed out the near-certain fake wrap on the APMEX listing, no?  Then HOW can you suggest I am trying to ignore it? That doesn't make sense and is just plain silly.

AND I pointed out the irony of the APMEX ad tag: ("Buy with confidence from APMEX on eBay!")  
And pointed out they have been caught photoshopping images.
So there is no game, nobody is attacking you other than to try to clear up that you are not understanding clear English writing, which is fine and happens from time to time.

No heart attack, no heartbreak either, and no karma points affected.  No drama.
Just asking for the truth. That is the real purpose.

Now do you have additional, maybe documented information that 2001-D was definitely minted or wrapped in Shanghai ?
If so I would like to see it.  Otherwise, all info I have seen so far says "not".  Please feel free to add concrete evidence and not guesses based on how it "appears" as we know that is losing credibility daily. By the way look closely at the wrap- there are small differences and that is what is bringing up the issue.  The first pics of fake OMP posted by myself and supplied by WG and eurokrem are obvious and poorly done efforts ( not even square).  Are the fakers getting better?  You can bet they are or will be.
I would invite the European collectors here especially from Germany to share what they know and not hold back.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 04:09:37 PM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2013, 03:56:36 PM »
Nothing personal, but quit beating around the bu
@Hippanda

you are near Heart-attack by viewing Pouch of 2001D in good looking condition and without any Evidence that those coins were not in Shanghai minted but about 4 ( four ) coins in absolutely and without any doubt fake OMPs selling from big USA dealer you don't loose a word  N4

are you kidding ?

that's why i think this thread is very interesting, you could easily recognise peoples real purposes in such matters.

this kind of detour is not very sophisticated, sorry, but your posts says one and your doings something else.

with your long and heartbreaking post where you are attacking me you don't achieve anything and who is selling those coins in Fake OMP is no secret more in Germany, but due to big influence of this dealer nobody in USA dares to speech about.

I have saw this kind of game many times in my life.


so, you are free to give me a bad karma point  :lol: N27 N25


  
@Hippanda

you are near Heart-attack by viewing Pouch of 2001D in good looking condition and without any Evidence that those coins were not in Shanghai minted but about 4 ( four ) coins in absolutely and without any doubt fake OMPs selling from big USA dealer you don't loose a word  N4

are you kidding ?

that's why i think this thread is very interesting, you could easily recognise peoples real purposes in such matters.

this kind of detour is not very sophisticated, sorry, but your posts says one and your doings something else.

with your long and heartbreaking post where you are attacking me you don't achieve anything and who is selling those coins in Fake OMP is no secret more in Germany, but due to big influence of this dealer nobody in USA dares to speech about.

I have saw this kind of game many times in my life.


so, you are free to give me a bad karma point  :lol: N27 N25


  
@Hippanda

you are near Heart-attack by viewing Pouch of 2001D in good looking condition and without any Evidence that those coins were not in Shanghai minted but about 4 ( four ) coins in absolutely and without any doubt fake OMPs selling from big USA dealer you don't loose a word  N4

are you kidding ?

that's why i think this thread is very interesting, you could easily recognise peoples real purposes in such matters.

this kind of detour is not very sophisticated, sorry, but your posts says one and your doings something else.

with your long and heartbreaking post where you are attacking me you don't achieve anything and who is selling those coins in Fake OMP is no secret more in Germany, but due to big influence of this dealer nobody in USA dares to speech about.

I have saw this kind of game many times in my life.


so, you are free to give me a bad karma point  :lol: N27 N25


  

Nothing personal, but quit beating around the bush. Say what you need to say, what you say is confusing. IMHO hipanda is not covering anything up, infact he's bringing further evidence that something is going on world wide.  In fact thanks hipanda for your contribution . Disclosure- I don't know hipanda and have never met him or had personal conversation outside of the forum.

Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2013, 04:07:47 PM »
So the implication is that A respected NGC anthorized eBay dealer! is in bed with the snakes at APMEX?
FWIW, it is no secret that APMEX plays games with grading and exploits their customers.

Offline wittu

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2013, 04:26:54 PM »
So the implication is that A respected NGC anthorized eBay dealer! is in bed with the snakes at APMEX?
FWIW, it is no secret that APMEX plays games with grading and exploits their customers.

Who is talking about Apmex right now? N66
I am out...is getting too hot right now... N21


Cheers,
wittu  N48

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2013, 04:32:31 PM »
Who is talking about Apmex right now? N66
I am out...is getting too hot right now... N21


Cheers,
wittu  N48

Too bad, we need collectors who know something to stand up and speak out.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wittu

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2013, 04:34:49 PM »
 :001_tt2:
yep...what did you expect? Half german half swedish...i am searching for harmony  :001_tt1:
but did my Senior year in the U.S. (Exchange Student)

wittu  N48

Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2013, 04:35:17 PM »
Who is talking about Apmex right now? N66
I am out...is getting too hot right now... N21


Cheers,
wittu  N48

I believe that was the thrust of the thread?

What's wrong with this picture?

"2001 1 oz Gold Chinese Panda Coin - Sealed in Plastic
Buy with confidence from APMEX on eBay!"
                              


Offline wittu

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2013, 04:38:29 PM »
...

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2013, 04:44:55 PM »



.. who is selling those coins in Fake OMP is no secret more in Germany, but due to big influence of this dealer nobody in USA dares to speech about.


Evidently also none of our German brothers "dares to speech about" it, but prefer instead to lob vague innuendos and beat around the bush?

Come on, where is that Teutonic pride and fortitude?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wittu

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2013, 04:53:54 PM »
Hippanda,

hey...i am not having ANY bad vibrations with you. "I" just don`t feel comfortable enough, making clear statements in this case. I`m not feeling safe enough doing this (juristical consequences). SORRY!  YES ...not a sign of strength...so what. It is just my Hobby and i got Family. N16

If you read these 3 pages (not more), you will be able to imagine, whom the "Brothers" were talking about  N14 (at least i think i know...you should be able, too)

wittu N48

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2013, 04:59:06 PM »

"I" just don`t feel comfortable enough, making clear statements in this case. I`m not feeling safe enough doing this (juristical consequences). SORRY!  YES ...not a sign of strength...so what. It is just my Hobby and i got Family.

wittu N48

Odd- I know I recall hearing this same line in a movie about "The Mob"
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2013, 05:03:00 PM »
I'm beginning to think the older Panda market is at least half casino with the large players pushing the prices around and dealing from another deck to suit their hands.
I feel like the guy at the poker table who is wondering who the sucker is.

Offline eurokrem

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2013, 05:04:18 PM »
i think nobody from Germany buy again from this Big USA Dealer, or at least less people are going to buy there, thats good and rest is problem for USA Collectors, this is going to bee a funny thing, and i am also not in mood to fight other peoples fight, everybody should clean for his own Doorstep, i earn my money in honest way and i sleep very well, i want this to stay so, buy buy, i am out from this useless discussion   N18

Edit:

and this big dealer is NOT APMEX !!!
У добру је лако добар бити, на муци се познају јунаци,
 Владика Петар II Петровић Његош 1813—1851

It is easy to be good while it is good, the trouble reveals the heroes.
Vladika Petar II Petrović Njegoš 1813-1851

Offline wittu

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2013, 05:07:42 PM »
Odd- I know I recall hearing this same line in a movie about "The Mob"

ooohh...so you got bad vibrations with me? (if i get you right...)

Well...have fun!  :001_tt2:
Hmmmm...i am kind of disappointed... I AM SORRY for this, because i think, us collectors should stick together fighting such "movements".


wittu N48

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2013, 05:12:21 PM »
"Bad vibrations" ?  Now I know this has to be a language problem / failure to communicate.

No "bad vibrations" if you mean hard feelings?  I am just surprised at how some Germany collector brothers are apparently indignant about fraud but only to a point short of spelling it out and naming names and won't stand up out of fear of reprisal, then run away saying they've said enough.  Must be a cultural thing?

If you think  "collectors should stick together", why be afraid and clam up?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2013, 05:15:55 PM »
i think nobody from Germany buy again from this Big USA Dealer...

Edit:

and this big dealer is NOT APMEX !!!

So, who is it?  Who is the source for these fake OMPs? Why not say?

i am out from this useless discussion  

Well then at least Thank You for your contribution to make it useless
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline eurokrem

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2013, 05:21:38 PM »

@Hippanda

he he, other members asked same thing but per PM and i answered, you instead like me to give light target for law suit, no no my dear, is this also a cultural thing ?  N27

Luke 8:17

17  Nothing is hidden that won’t be exposed. Nor is anything concealed that won’t be made known and brought to the light.


У добру је лако добар бити, на муци се познају јунаци,
 Владика Петар II Петровић Његош 1813—1851

It is easy to be good while it is good, the trouble reveals the heroes.
Vladika Petar II Petrović Njegoš 1813-1851

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2013, 05:22:09 PM »
How can "us collectors stick together" if know one know who this mysterious dealer is. Why leave people assuming who this US dealer is. This gives USDealers in general a bad name and that is wrong, there are some excellent dealers that do not deserve this bad wrap.

Offline wittu

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2013, 05:22:32 PM »
Hippanda,

i know what you mean, ... but i surely not stand for "the german People"...but i got the right to step back, once i don`t feel comfortable enough and you will not get me to change that way  N27

it`s different when you live in the USA, having school lessons of "AMERICAN" history, "American" Geography, "American" policy and so on  N4 excuse me for making this joke...but did you experience my country like i did yours? (and i liked much of ist...). So pleeeeaaaase don´t make it as a regular german Habit, just because the Little wittu acts that way...
Hey...in college prep they were explainig a fridge to me (it makes things cold!) and asked me, if Hit...was still alive.  (1988)  
 
wittu N48

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2013, 05:25:27 PM »
Funny! LOL!  "if Hit... was still alive"

At least I think so if I understand correctly.

This language barrier thing is real.

Nothing directed at you alone, wittu, its just there are three European / German members in this thread
and none of them will name names, out of fear.  Sad.

Cheers!
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2013, 05:36:10 PM »
Thanks for your point of view
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2013, 06:01:13 PM »
I believe that was the thrust of the thread?

@NBM

So the implication is that A respected NGC anthorized eBay dealer! is in bed with the snakes at APMEX?
FWIW, it is no secret that APMEX plays games with grading and exploits their customers.

Actually I gather from the red highlighted "who is talking about Apmex "right now"" that wittu's hint is : its not Apmex who is the Large US Dealer "who is in Bed"
(And confirmed by eurokrem : "EDIT:  and this big dealer is NOT APMEX !!")

A different LARGE US Distributor is being pointed at, or, actually, winked or nodded at (since its apparently dangerous to give names, initials, or even their street name?)
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2013, 06:31:39 PM »
@wg

well, there are more of those fake pouch coins, all of them are from USA big Coin dealer ( not ebay shop ! ) , i have bills and customs protocol for those coins, its clear, those fake pouches are coming from USA  N32

1/20oz Panda

2004 179$
2001 175$
1990 135$
1989 149$

those Prices are OK for OMP Pandas but for those fake sealed coins is this no go, colleague collector has buyed those coins, for me it is clear, i dont buy any coins from USA dealers ever again, Ebay is better, its a scandal  N26

Those people they are running this business should be ashamed.




Can you give us any more information to help make it clearer?
These prices may be common, for example:

"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2013, 07:17:56 PM »
We are talking Panda America?  :scared:  :cursing:
Now I must go pull my PA purchases to see...
Notice how they label these... generic pictures and all.  >:(




Offline PandaQuest

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2013, 07:28:47 PM »
And the plot thickens..  Yikes!

Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2013, 07:30:41 PM »
after market

97, 2000, 2001

http://www.goldseiten-forum.de/index.php?page=Thread&postID=870859#post870859

regards

I failed to read the 2nd page of this, thank you wg for the link!

Offline GDG's

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2013, 07:47:35 PM »
We are talking Panda America?  :scared:  :cursing:
Now I must go pull my PA purchases to see...
Notice how they label these... generic pictures and all.  >:(
 

Generic/stock photos I will never bid on nor buy from. I think it is bad practice for any dealer to do this. Just to say they are too big is not a valid reason.
I want clear pics of the coin I buy and I want a return guarantee. I don't think that is too much to ask of someone who is supposed to be running a reputable business.
PA got big off the sale of CMC and then branched out. If they lose respect of the collector they will eventually lose their business. I will not buy from certain dealer just because of this reason.




Offline Birdman

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2013, 07:56:00 PM »
Is this truly Original Mint Packaging?

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2013, 08:25:34 PM »
Hard to tell from the photos- do the ends look right in person?
Also not sure on the small pattern for Shanghai for that year. vs last 50 yuan I saw in OMP yours may have more nubs- 1 or two each dimension- or they may be smaller. Don't know if its material or not. Something tells
me I saw two different patterns for Shanghai on 1990-1992, but I didn't know if smaller pattern one like this was legit or not, so I passed, although the coins appeared nice. They were being sold from China. Seller was confused too, they saw difference in pattern and was told both Shanghai and Shenyang.  Not Shenyang though.
I hope Poconopenn or WG can add their thoughts.

Is your coin perfect?  or does it have minor rim nicks or other imperfections which might knock it down a grade?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 08:51:48 PM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2013, 08:48:53 PM »
We know which mint's seal should be on them from Peter's post:
       Small Date       Large Date
1990   Shenyang   Shanghai   
1991   Shenyang   Shanghai   
1992   Shenyang   Shanghai   
1993   Shenyang   Shanghai   
1994   Shenyang   Shanghai   
1995   Shenyang   Shanghai   
1996   Shanghai   Shenyang   
1997   Shanghai   Shenyang   
1998   Shanghai   Shenyang   
1999   Shanghai   Shenyang    LD with Serif: Shenzhen   
2000   frosted - Shenzhen & Shanghai?   Mirror-Shanghai

The seal patterns changed over the years?

My '97 G5Y LD from PA has the seal that seems to be "mint correct" from Shenyang and from what I was able to find on eBay at the time of purchase it seemed year correct as well. ?



Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2013, 08:55:00 PM »
Yes, seal pattens have changed over the years. And sometimes even within the same year.
But usually Shanghai (bolder) and Shenyang (finer) were easy to tell apart. Peter's first book had examples
of each Mint wraps near the back of the book I recall.

Yours appears Shenyang wrap (fine), proper for Large Date for that year.

And this following link shows a Shanghai wrap (bolder), proper for Small Date for that year:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/1-20-oz-5-Yuan-Gold-China-Panda-1997-in-Originalfolie-/261250317851?nma=true&si=f294M1Ne9KuK8O0rghnhgJavuSE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_1518wt_956

Here is a troubling one:  Large Date 1997 which should be in a Shenyang wrap, but appears to be in
a pattern which was found on early-mid 1980 Shanghai, and is the same as the obvious wrong match of the coin in the First post which started this thread:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/1-20-oz-5-Yuan-Gold-China-Panda-1997-in-Originalfolie-/261250317851
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #60 on: September 15, 2013, 09:06:32 PM »
That 1992 1/2 is a 68 at best due to forehead rub.
It is obvious enough through the package.
Several coins from this year appear to have been mishandled.
That discoloration on the forehead is likely shelf wear inside the OMP.
OMP isn't made for long term storage and there are many mishandled 1980's and 1990's pieces that have slid around in drawers and across display cases for years.

Offline Birdman

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #61 on: September 15, 2013, 09:25:24 PM »
That 1992 1/2 is a 68 at best due to forehead rub.
It is obvious enough through the package.
Several coins from this year appear to have been mishandled.
That discoloration on the forehead is likely shelf wear inside the OMP.
OMP isn't made for long term storage and there are many mishandled 1980's and 1990's pieces that have slid around in drawers and across display cases for years.

It is definitely not an ms70 candidate.  I bought it sight-unseen Omp from a big dealer at a price that made it worth taking a risk.  As long as it is truly OMP and I wasn't deceived, I'm ok with the purchase.  You win some, you lose some. 

I

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #62 on: September 15, 2013, 09:37:44 PM »
I am not sure if the 1992 panda is OMP or not, however, the pouch looks to be in pristine condition from the pics.  The pouch is over 20 years old and I would have expected to see some discoloring or deterioration.  Forehead rubbing is common on pandas in capsules. To achieve the rubbing in your coin, it would have to have been tossed around an awful lot in OMP to achieve that level.  This would lead to the pouch showing signs of this.

As a side topic, I believe all post 2005 gold bu pandas have SG mint pouches. It is impossible to find a pouch other than SG.   However I believe it is documented somewhere that both Shanghai and SG produce gold pandas.  Which is odd why only SG pouches.

Here is a pic of a sheet I bought of 2008 pandas in Shanghai pouch.  Is the sheet resealed or not, I do not know, but I bought it anyway.  I thought is would be odd for someone to go to the trouble of resealing an entire sheet as opposed to individual pandas. 

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2013, 10:23:28 PM »
@NBM

Here is what 1997 Large Date OMP from Shenyang should look like: (yours does appear to match this, yes?)
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2013, 11:02:11 PM »
I'm afraid your picture is too small for me to tell.

Offline tongo888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2013, 11:21:58 PM »
someone should do a Peter Anthony's Panda Book style on .... (about pouches) .

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2013, 12:08:00 AM »
Lest anyone complain of favoritism, here is a seller in Germany selling quite a few fake OMPs.
Same type as in the original photo of this thread.

Do our German collector brothers simply tolerate this from this seller? Or ?

And fraudulently discribed as "Originalfolie" too. Is it known for certain the origin of these is not Germany?

( photos previously provided by WG):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-20-oz-5-Yuan-Gold-China-Panda-1997-in-Originalfolie-/261268758510?pt=Münzen_Medaillen&hash=item3cd4d4dfee&nma=true&si=5QljDSEvL2bbAH73JhoTgn3LlMY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-10-oz-50-Yuan-Gold-China-Panda-2001-in-Originalfolie-/261268757488?pt=Münzen_Medaillen&hash=item3cd4d4dbf0&nma=true&si=5QljDSEvL2bbAH73JhoTgn3LlMY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline mook

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2013, 12:21:59 AM »
OMP Shenyang 1997

Offline mook

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2013, 12:24:35 AM »
OMP Shenyang 1996

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2013, 12:54:43 AM »
Now That is interesting- thanks

I couldnt recall when Shenyang changed to the triangles - I do know the very fine pattern shown was much older.
So, is the fine wrap pattern in 1997 Shenyang a leftover ? It seems thst fine pattern is too
fine to fake later. Maybevthe mint had leftover older wraps for some sizes?

I am certain I have some earlier (1980's ) pandas with two types of Shenyang pattern fron same yesr.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2013, 12:59:30 AM »
@NBM

Here is what 1997 Large Date OMP from Shenyang should look like: (yours does appear to match this, yes?)

I cropped, resized (X4), and adjusted the gamma and contrast a little.
Yes, this looks like mine,

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2013, 02:14:34 AM »
chris

only 2001 there is a mint slip with every single coin.

2008 sheet is resealed




Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2013, 02:18:57 AM »
2009

:001_rolleyes:

Dear Debbie, dear JR,

I am very sorry, but on Friday I will visit my bank and cancel my
mastercard-payment.
You leave no other choice for me to save my money.

After speaking to JR on Wednesday last week, he promised me to find a
solution
for my problems with this order.

But absolutely nothing happened! No email, no fedex-mail, no phonecall.
I tell you something, I've lost my faith into the company Pandaamerica!

Eventhough I cancel my offer to buy the misdelivery, after I found out, that
the coin you have send me is not original sealed. ( See picture-appendix )
As I do not collect quarter ounces, I did not knew in what kind of way
they are
originally sealed. Collectors in my forum all said the same: this is
private made sealing!
The coin can be picked up at my house by an agent of fedex or whatsoever,
or I will send it to you by parcel, but only if you carry the costs. I
didn't order this coin and
I don't want it.!

I am very disgusted with this delivery, the lack of communication and
the missing
halfounce, of course. Further I am afraid, that all the halfounces I
bought before
are even sealed at your company, and not by the chinese mint. It's a shame!

Regards,




Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2013, 03:09:14 AM »
chris

only 2001 there is a mint slip with every single coin.

2008 sheet is resealed


THAT is amazing.  Thanks wg.  I had thought that 2001 was the only year with those barcodes too.

Now wg can you comment if 2001-D was ever packed in same Shanghai wrap too?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline mook

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2013, 03:17:23 AM »
????

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2013, 03:29:38 AM »
hippanda

 if 2001-D was ever packed in same Shanghai wrap too?

« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 12:47:46 PM »

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2013, 03:56:18 AM »

xu hong

sorry ...  -1 :cursing:
i thought those times are over. :(

Got it. The 2001-D never came in Shanghai wrap, and the photo shows a seller selling a resealed sheet of a mint wrap which was never done.  Suspected the same. Thanks wg.

Disappointing.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Pandapaule

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2013, 01:36:32 PM »
HI

I bought 2001 D with Naomi. Figure Ebay was Shenzhen. Was delivered.


Is there really only one slide? There's also at AU Big D and small D?

Was ist mit 2004 ?


Thanks
PP who knows nothing more soon  :confused1:

Offline comeaux

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2013, 10:40:23 PM »
Quote
hmm, this discussion is very interesting,

in past there was issue about resealed coins and seller was a Chinese business man from china, now it is an USA Firm and nobody gives any attention about it, instead there are Pictures of allegedly fake pouches from ( again ) Chinese seller in attempt to camouflage those fake OMP from USA.

very interesting indeed   ...  
 
I’ll only make one post in this thread regarding the insinuation of USA favoritism.  

For a person to come to CCF and assert that other members here are turning a blind eye to chicanery because the deception is perpetrated by an American company is borderline retarded. This claim is so outlandish and nearly racist that it barely requires a response but to the extent that it does … I’ll make these few points.

First and foremost … this is a global coin forum with members participating from countries all around the world. Disparaging comments towards any country or nationality should not be tolerated as we are a community of people with various nationalities congregating here at CCF to discuss our enjoyment and fascination of Chinese Coins. Condescending remarks about nationalities only serves to draw lines where there should be no division … let’s leave that to governments who seem to be pretty good at it regardless of what their people think.

I’ve been here at CCF for a few years and those who have seen my posts and those posts of other members such as hippanda can conclude that we have always railed against any and all unethical nonsense committed that has affected our hobby regardless of the wrongdoer. It doesn’t matter if the offender is an American, Chinese, German, Japanese or if it’s a single person or large company … trickery has never been accepted, has always been exposed & denigrated.

Initially I did not bother to make a comment on this thread because I have made countless comments in the past on other posts regarding my feelings towards the practice of “resealing” coins. There have been endless and heated debates about this issue. There are some who apparently don’t care and then there are others such as me who absolutely detests this practice of resealing coins … I have the same aversion to this practice regardless of what nationality the perpetrator or company is but I’m not going to waste my time or breath every time someone posts a picture of a resealed coin … everyone knows my position and I don’t feel like beating a dead horse. My lack of comments had nothing to do with a “USA Company”.  

Also there are 100’s (possibly 1,000’s) of CCF threads that have been initiated over the years to alert other CCF members of fake coins, questionable dealers and deceptive practices. I’ve never seen any particular nationality targeted in these “fake coin” alert posts … all dishonest persons/entities were fair game and equally exposed.  

There was a thread I started a few months ago where I vehemently challenged the deceptive practices of a very large American coin dealer/company and many other members here on CCF who are American also did the same. If I or any other members here were showing favoritism towards American companies then surely this would have been the perfect opportunity but we expressed our view that what was occurring was abhorrent and unacceptable. We absolutely “held no punches” because the company was an American company.  

Hippanda started this thread exposing deceitful tactics of a “USA Company” so I am really having trouble understanding the logic regarding the nonsensical statement “in past there was issue about resealed coins and seller was a Chinese business man from china now it is an USA Firm and nobody gives any attention” … ummmm HELLO !!! He is EXPOSING a company from the USA, what are you not comprehending ????  

In closing I want to say that I am an American and damn proud of it, I love my country, the freedom I have, the luxuries I’m afforded and the wonderful life I live with my family. I also respect all other races, cultures, nationalities and wish the same for them as well. With this being said I can also say that I will always expose dishonesty and unethical behavior regardless if it’s a Chinese, American, German, Canadian or whether it’s an individual, company or corporation. I believe that hippanda and most others here at CCF have this sentiment as well.

 :001_smile:

Offline Bearcat

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2013, 11:22:40 PM »
Well said comeaux! Always refreshing when you serve up a "straight shot"!

Offline wittu

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2013, 02:10:07 AM »
@comeaux

i am very sure, this was not a question of race or nationality ...

at least i can say that from my point of view (i know, you didn`t refer to my postings...) and i am sure not from eurokrems view either, but i do not like being characterized "as a german"  or whatever...especially BECAUSE of these things, that you pointed out.

Why i stepped back and why i want my decision to be understood and accepted:
i am new on this Forum...i don`t know anybody personally...i do not know, who is a dealer or not, who sticks together with some Company and so on...
please believe us: in our Forum we point out the german dealers, too  (for example the german dealer, Hippanda pointed out...SHE was mentioned in different Forums several times within the last weeks, after we found out her selling "FMP" as OMP).
Collecting chinese coins is my Hobby and i have no interest in getting too hot discussions....but i react emotional and pi...off, once i get to know, big Dealers (or small private sellers) make it harder to enjoy it or play around with collectors money. And the more i get to know, the more it makes me sick!


Like i mentioned before: i enjoyed my senior year very much. The ONLY thing i really didn`t like was the american news on TV and newspapers at that time, pointing out ONE view of the world (i am sure, things changed since 1988)  :001_rolleyes: but that`s a totally different discussion... so many nice friends i met and made...but when it came on subjects such as worldwide politics and "understanding", ...from my point of view, many of my friends failed, cause of missing knowledge...not even able to show where the big evil enimy Russia (Rocky movies were "in" at that time :001_smile: ) was on the map, neither countries like England, France or Germany, Australia, China or even a continent like Africa or whatever.  And after showing me a fridge and microwave  N16, they would drive home with a BMW  N23  :thumbup1:.  Of course not EVERYBODY!!!  N25



wittu N48

edit
by the way- HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY STATEMENT ABOVE  :biggrin:: is someone able to tell me, why many Dealers wouldn`t sell to Germany (but no Problem to asia for example)? Is there a special difficulty with shipping or something?

edit 2
Hippanda  N40 most of the times, i am emotional for about 2 minutes, if nobody REALLY attacks me. But as long as i cannot trust somebody, i am rather at the sideline, reacting emotional if someone doesn`t accept that.





Offline Pandaguy

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2013, 02:12:58 AM »
 
In closing I want to say that I am an American and damn proud of it, I love my country, the freedom I have, the luxuries I’m afforded and the wonderful life I live with my family. I also respect all other races, cultures, nationalities and wish the same for them as well. With this being said I can also say that I will always expose dishonesty and unethical behavior regardless if it’s a Chinese, American, German, Canadian or whether it’s an individual, company or corporation. I believe that hippanda and most others here at CCF have this sentiment as well.

 :001_smile:



AMEN to that!!!  I wholeheartedly agree.  And to those AMERICANS who do not agree, just go to any foreign country, and your eyes will be opened. Trust me!  I LOVE AMERICA!!!!

Offline wittu

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2013, 03:22:08 AM »

AMEN to that!!!  I wholeheartedly agree.  And to those AMERICANS who do not agree, just go to any foreign country, and your eyes will be opened. Trust me!  I LOVE AMERICA!!!!


good example! Thank you  :001_rolleyes:

BTT: These things, that were mentioned before (wrong sealed coins from a big dealer)...did many of you know that before? I didn`t know that before and i am really shocked. And i think, IT IS strange, that there are not more people responding?!

wittu N48

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2013, 04:23:51 AM »
sometimes i wish they are resealed  :001_rolleyes:

for ex .. before i get pandas like this. :(

regards






Offline wittu

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2013, 04:26:23 AM »
 :w00t:

 :lol: what a GREAT Picture  N27
thanks for sharing!

wittu  N48

Offline wittu

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2013, 06:55:52 AM »
@wg

you should "make the day" for the NGC employes and send it to them exactly like THIS.  :blink:

I really do hope, that the deal "ended" o.k. for you?! This looks like "a lot" :001_unsure:


wittu N48

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2013, 01:07:46 PM »

wittu

one bad (rim)
one with a scratch on the backside
but the rest looks not bad. ;)

regards

Offline comeaux

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2013, 01:15:33 PM »
wittu

one bad (rim)
one with a scratch on the backside
but the rest looks not bad. ;)

regards

Very nice wg !!!

I think you have the finest collections of Chinese Panda in the world, I’ve never seen anyone else close.  :thumbup:

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2013, 05:27:01 PM »
Attached are pictures of Shenyang and Shanghai mint pouches. First five pictures are example of 1/10 oz from 1991 to 2004. The last picture show 1998 ½ oz. It appears that two different seal patterns from Shenyang mint for 1998 ½ oz, since I bought these coins more than 10 years ago, long before mint started to seal coin for a fee. In addition, up to now, I have not seen resealed pouch from Shenyang mint. The paper insert of these two different Shenyang Mint patterns are identical.

Notes:

1.   2001 D was issued by Shenzhen mint and 2001 was issued by Shanghai mint.

2.   2000 mirror issued by Shanghai mint and 2000 frosty was issued by Shenzhen mint.

3.   Shenzhen Mint was not in operation until 1997. Any coin prior to 1997 sealed with Shenzhen pouch was resealed.

4.   Shenyang mint issued small date from 1990 to 1995 and large date from 1996 to 1999.

5.   According to China Gold Coins Inc website, as well as red book and Mr. Ge, starting 2005, gold pandas were issued by three Mints (Shanghai, Shenyang and Shenzhen). However, I have not seen any gold panda in Shanghai, and Shenyang mint pouch for any size after 2005, except the 2008 1/20 oz sheet found by 1668Chris. Two large dealers inside China also had never seen any post-2005 gold pandas in Shanghai and Shenyang mint pouch either. IMO, the 2008 sheet may not be sealed by Shanghai mint, but by somebody else, since the paper inset does not fit the pouch and seal pattern is slightly difference from other dates as show in the attached picture for post 2001.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2013, 05:33:41 PM »
Poconopenn-

Fantastic, as always.  Thanks!

In your first photo, coin on right, is that 1993? (Hard to read).  Shows triangle edge pattern? First year for it?

Also another photo shows 1997 with tiny pattern, to answer question earlier in thread that 1997 came in both triangle and tiny pattern. So both NBM and Mook have different but genuine.

Seems triangle pattern then goes back to maybe 1993?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #90 on: September 17, 2013, 05:45:50 PM »
I agree too about Shanghai type pattern slightly different than genuine on 2008 1/20 and 2001-D 1/20 shown before.
Hard to tell for certain, but seems a tiny bit off in nub size and shape.
Might well be "somebody else" aka "aftermarket".

The question is, just who is "somebody else"?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #91 on: September 17, 2013, 05:55:52 PM »
Isn't there a 1oz silver 1996 Shenzhen panda.
I have seen a few and they looked legitimate.
Other than this I know of no pre-97 Shenzhen.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2013, 06:01:08 PM »
Poconopenn-

Fantastic, as always.  Thanks!

In your first photo, coin on right, is that 1993? (Hard to read).  Shows triangle edge pattern? First year for it?

Also another photo shows 1997 with tiny pattern, to answer question earlier in thread that 1997 came in both triangle and tiny pattern. So both NBM and Mook have different but genuine.

Seems triangle pattern then goes back to maybe 1993?


The triangle pattern usually for large size gold coin, but not always. It may start in 1993. Silver pandas from Shenyang are in triangle pattern. IMO, triangle is more secure, therefore for large size coins. This is another reason the 1998 1/2 oz gold panda had two different patterns, one is similar to earlier Shenyang gold panda and one similar to later Shenyang pattern.    

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2013, 06:03:48 PM »
Isn't there a 1oz silver 1996 Shenzhen panda.
I have seen a few and they looked legitimate.
Other than this I know of no pre-97 Shenzhen.

Yes, this may be from a trial run, but coin is identical to Shanghai.

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2013, 07:47:35 PM »
I've also noticed that 03 has both Shenyang patterns too. Is seems to be the same as the 98's, only the large coins have triangle pattern, and small pattern I've seen on all 5 sizes. Here's one example, and I added some background eye candy.  :biggrin:

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2013, 08:21:41 PM »
Nice Eye Candy- gotta love esp the 2000 Mirrors and 2001-D  N31


To that 2003 two styles of Shenyang packaging, add the mysterious "500 Y in a Capsule in the Triangle Pattern Wrap"
 
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2013, 08:27:44 PM »
Yes that's right. I think I've read a thread on this forum in the past, that it belonged in a colored lunar set or something like that.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #97 on: September 17, 2013, 09:06:10 PM »
Yes that's right. I think I've read a thread on this forum in the past, that it belonged in a colored lunar set or something like that.

Not sure about that now. Two reasons:

- first, only the 500 yuan of the 2003 has turned up in the double wrap capsule plus plastic wrap. No other sizes.
- second, the capsule may be slightly larger than the one in the lunar set.  I will check mine later and compare them but I recall it perhaps seemed slightly different.

One thing is for certain about this mysterious packaging for the 2003 Shenyang: it is unique along with the 2001 Shenyang Frosty version, which packaged all size coins in the capsule and plastic wrap though.

It was intentional for some reason, and begs the question why?  Were they especially well-struck, early die states, for some specially planned purpose?  
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 09:36:00 PM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #98 on: September 17, 2013, 10:01:05 PM »
This is the thread I was referring to.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7547.0

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2013, 10:31:26 PM »
Yes, I recall that thread well since in my mind the mystery was never really solved.  I am quite certain they are not reseals. I am hesitant to agree that the capsule is the same as in the lunar sets for 2003. It will take me some time to check for sure, but it is on my list. I recall there is some room for coin movement in these double wrapped ones, but that I think I recall the Lunar Set capsules having a tight tolerance. I did check and my Lunar set ones are all Mirror Bamboo = Shanghai. As I said though, I will double check.
I still have seen zero of the smaller denominations in the capsule and wrap for 2003 gold, so I still have to believe these 500Y may have a different story behind them.


*Edit: made typo in earlier post: 2000 Frosty was Shenzhen Mint.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2013, 11:19:38 PM »
Isn't there a 1oz silver 1996 Shenzhen panda.
I have seen a few and they looked legitimate.
Other than this I know of no pre-97 Shenzhen.

According to Company Record of China Gold Coin Inc.(1987-2007), Page 140 as attached, the construction of Shenzhen plant was completed in Nov. 1996 and formerly transferred to China Gold Coin Inc in July 1998. IMO, any coin made between 11/96 and 7/98 would be considered as trial or pilot run.

Offline wg

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Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #102 on: September 20, 2013, 09:10:52 AM »
one mint more  :001_rolleyes:

Double Sealed

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-CHINA-100-Yuan-Golden-Monkey-Gold-Coin-Double-Sealed-w-Box-COA-/221285154602?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item33859f7f2a

If this seller knows the seal is too old for the coin would it be considered fraud for them to imply it is OMP with their "double sealed" advertising?

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #103 on: September 21, 2013, 06:15:22 AM »

at least borderline :001_rolleyes:
.

If this seller knows

for me ... fraud
double sealed ( but not orig. mint packing )

soviel zeit muss sein  :biggrin:


Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #104 on: September 21, 2013, 07:14:50 AM »
They have been informed, several days ago.  :001_rolleyes:

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #105 on: September 21, 2013, 01:27:18 PM »
The triangle pattern usually for large size gold coin, but not always. It may start in 1993. Silver pandas from Shenyang are in triangle pattern. IMO, triangle is more secure, therefore for large size coins. This is another reason the 1998 1/2 oz gold panda had two different patterns, one is similar to earlier Shenyang gold panda and one similar to later Shenyang pattern.    

do you think this one is resealed?
Taiwan 1992 Taiwan Scenery

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Landschaftsbilder-Taiwan-1992-Taiwan-Scenery-Commemorative-silver-Coins-5-yuan-/321207938172?pt=M%C3%BCnzen_Medaillen&hash=item4ac97c2c7c&nma=true&si=n%252FNIOWwQ%252BvU%252BUGTqxeCD8HttFYE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

thank you

.

nbm

but they don't give a fxxxdon't care - i know :(

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #106 on: September 21, 2013, 01:54:12 PM »
 Edges of seal look odd.

And appearances of coins seem off: possible scratches on coin or capsule?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #107 on: September 21, 2013, 02:16:17 PM »
Edges of seal look odd.

And appearances of coins seem off: possible scratches on coin or capsule?

means what? :(
resealing (for money?) also in sy mint?
incredible for me ... but we came here to learn.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #108 on: September 21, 2013, 02:18:28 PM »
Yes,

Deception seems to be a cottage industry now.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #109 on: September 21, 2013, 02:25:49 PM »
Yes,

Deception seems to be a cottage industry now.

 :scared:
 N36
.

 N48thanks

 N35

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #110 on: September 21, 2013, 04:46:29 PM »
do you think this one is resealed?
Taiwan 1992 Taiwan Scenery

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Landschaftsbilder-Taiwan-1992-Taiwan-Scenery-Commemorative-silver-Coins-5-yuan-/321207938172?pt=M%C3%BCnzen_Medaillen&hash=item4ac97c2c7c&nma=true&si=n%252FNIOWwQ%252BvU%252BUGTqxeCD8HttFYE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

thank you

.

nbm

but they don't give a fxxxdon't care - i know :(


IMO, they are OMP from Shenyang. All silver 1 oz from Shenyang Mint have this triangle pattern in three sides. The pouch appears to be deteriorated and some oily plasticize was released to cover and adhere to the capsule surface. This may be caused by storage in warm enivronment for a prolong period of time. However, the coins will be OK as long as the capsule is sealed properly.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #111 on: September 21, 2013, 09:21:25 PM »

One edge of each coin seems either cut off from photos, or if shown maybe looks flattened as if re-sealed?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #112 on: September 22, 2013, 12:49:30 AM »
Shenyang Mint pouch

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #113 on: September 22, 2013, 01:18:27 AM »
Poconopenn your photo shows the usual three triangle sides, and then the one fine pattern side.
The pbotos in the ad seem to my eyes to have only two sides triangle, one fine pattern, and the last side should be triangle pattern but seems plain?

If you say it looks ok, then I trust it.

Admittedly my eyes are tired.

Beautiful coins.  I have passed on this set a few times, but always lust after them
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #114 on: September 22, 2013, 02:39:26 AM »
Poconopenn

if this coins are orig. mint sealed, it would be the oldest triangle pattern i have ever seen.

Poconopenn your photo shows the usual three triangle sides, and then the one fine pattern side.
The pbotos in the ad seem to my eyes to have only two sides triangle, one fine pattern, and the last side should be triangle pattern but seems plain?
( .. )

 ... also only 3 sides very well

http://www.silber.de/forum/chinesische-gold--und-silbermuenzen---teil-3-t15977-s405.html


Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #115 on: September 22, 2013, 03:03:07 AM »
Poconopenn

if this coins are orig. mint sealed, it would be the oldest triangle pattern i have ever seen.


Poconopenn knows wraps   N31

Here is the 1992 Shenyang Panda again in Triangle pattern, then 1991 in earlier Wire pattern.
So 1992 likely start first Shenyang Triangle pattern?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #116 on: September 22, 2013, 03:24:35 AM »
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 04:05:36 AM by wg »

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #117 on: September 23, 2013, 12:29:56 AM »
Here is another example, 1992 15 gm lunar (monkey) silver.

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #118 on: September 23, 2013, 02:55:32 AM »
poconopenn

the 1991 panda picture ...
have you ever seen this pattern?

best regards

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #119 on: September 23, 2013, 03:11:05 AM »
poconopenn

the 1991 panda picture ...
have you ever seen this pattern?

best regards

Wg
This one is like your photo.
Two pattern on edge together

O----O----O----O----O----O----O
00------00------00------00-----00
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #120 on: September 23, 2013, 04:21:56 AM »
hp

 N48

do it not so exciting  :tongue_smilie: aftermarket? :bored:


Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #121 on: September 23, 2013, 04:44:21 AM »
Got it... I promise to try to avoid posting anything so exciting now that I know...  ;)

Crazy to think somebody is aftermarket sealing all these coins, huh?

That seal, if not legit, perhaps an effort to pass as this Shenyang style:
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #122 on: September 23, 2013, 09:08:34 AM »
Has this 1987 proof been re-sealed? 

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #123 on: September 23, 2013, 09:10:45 AM »
Whether the resealing is being done by dealers in the US, China and/or Germany does not matter.  What matters is they are hurting themselves since this enhances the lack of trust amongst coin collectors, and obviously negatively influences buying decisions.  It is not enough that fakes are rampant but now to pass off something as OMP when its not just hurts the overall community.

I was at the Philly expo this weekend and I cannot tell you how many people asked if the coins were fakes, etc.  Even though all my coins displayed were in NGC holders.  Also, many dealers stopped by and their biggest concern with China moderns was fakes.  Even one person referredd to China moderns as "junk".

This is truly unfortunate and if the mint is responsible for letting this happen then it should be stopped.



Offline PandaQuest

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #124 on: September 23, 2013, 11:33:04 AM »
1993 gold panda 1/4 Shenzhen mint! Okay this resealing is getting out of hand!
eBay Item #:   221286875396

I guess the old saying really is wise, buy the coin and not the package!

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #125 on: September 23, 2013, 12:46:13 PM »
Wow that is pretty blatant- it wins the award so far.
Seller is also selling a fake 2000, and several other assorted pandas.  Seller sells rounds and art bars.
Eventually this does give pandas and Chinese coins a bad reputation and can hurt values, as new would-be collectors shun them rather than face the learning curve needed to determine real from fraud.
The sooner sources can be found and sellers put on notice and this eliminated, the better.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #126 on: September 23, 2013, 01:15:02 PM »
More examples of Shenyang Mint seal pattern for silver coins..

Offline Birdman

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #127 on: September 23, 2013, 06:28:26 PM »
Is this truly Original Mint Packaging?

For the record, I finally found my magnifying glass and looked at the features on the temple side.  All four of the 1992 G1/2 in the identical OMP that I had purchased from this dealer were LD, as they had the rounded "porthole" feature.

See http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7931.msg46663#msg46663

Hopefully the OMP design is also for LD?

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #128 on: September 24, 2013, 03:04:23 AM »

Hopefully the OMP design is also for LD?

 N31 N66

regards


Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #129 on: September 25, 2013, 02:19:44 AM »

supplied by panda america



Offline Panda Halves

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #130 on: September 25, 2013, 02:42:38 AM »
wg,
Is the 2000 coin on the bottom left a mirrored ring?

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #131 on: September 25, 2013, 02:44:53 AM »
1993 gold panda 1/4 Shenzhen mint! Okay this resealing is getting out of hand!
eBay Item #:   221286875396

I guess the old saying really is wise, buy the coin and not the package!

Nice catch on that one... genious.
Yet another case of (FMP) Faux-MP!

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #132 on: September 25, 2013, 02:58:32 AM »

one more

 N18


Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #133 on: September 25, 2013, 11:12:23 AM »
2 brand new coins ....

 :scared:
 resealed

NGC & PMG Authorized Dealer

 N36

4375 one side
4370 two sides

 N17 N17 N17

We are one of the official distributors of this medal.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/2013-China-Shanghai-GHETTO-Memory-PANDA-Jewish-1-Oz-Silver-Proof-Medal-w-BOX-COA-/121176039576?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c36a7a098

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #134 on: September 25, 2013, 12:57:32 PM »
2 brand new coins ....

 :scared:
 resealed

NGC & PMG Authorized Dealer

 N36

4375 one side
4370 two sides

 N17 N17 N17

We are one of the official distributors of this medal.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/2013-China-Shanghai-GHETTO-Memory-PANDA-Jewish-1-Oz-Silver-Proof-Medal-w-BOX-COA-/121176039576?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c36a7a098

The Shanghai Memory medal was numbered individually on obverse. This is one of the reason I have recommended this medal highly in other thread, since each medal was made with different die. The pouch is genuine Shanghai mint.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #135 on: September 25, 2013, 01:06:04 PM »
supplied by panda america




It is very troublsome to see official distributor in US to reseal MCC by a third party without make any disclaimer.

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #136 on: September 25, 2013, 01:12:17 PM »
The Shanghai Memory medal was numbered individually on obverse. This is one of the reason I have recommended this medal highly in other thread, since each medal was made with different die. The pouch is genuine Shanghai mint.

thanks for reply ;)

the answer ...

Hi,
Long story in short, some seals got open when shipped from Shanghai to US.
So the Spungen family fundation (the co-issuer of this medal) re-sealed some of them.

we are one of the official distributors for this medal and we tried to give u the consecutive numbers. Maybe that is why u had a couple of re-sealed ones.

if u do not like, we can exchange for u. But all the medals are in GEM proof condition. we did not cherry pick any.

BTW, other distributors just cut the seal and sell the medals in capsule only.

Thanks for your business.

Min

- qianscoins
   
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 01:46:24 PM by wg »

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #137 on: September 25, 2013, 01:58:46 PM »
More examples of Shenyang Mint seal pattern for silver coins..

can you tell me which year shenyang mint started with this pattern?

thank you


Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #138 on: September 25, 2013, 02:41:27 PM »
I was looking.
1985 earliest I have seen.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #139 on: September 25, 2013, 03:03:41 PM »
Yet ANOTHER example - this is an accelerating plague of deception and fraud. Who is doing this?  
This auction from Coinnext shows a 1990 Small Date and Large Date, the Small Date on the left is apparently resealed in the same "Faux" mint wrap as in so many coins now popping up including the one that started this thread the 2001.
(Note : the seal in the 1990 besides being the wrong pattern doesn't even match up on the side.)

So who here is connected well enough to ask Coinnext, Panda America and Apmex what their source is for these coins?
Why is Panda Will of Panda America silent? Seems some representative of these dealers should post here their answers and if this is going to be a continued or discontinued practice in light of the fact its now been exposed? Continued silence from them is just bad business.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-1990-5-Yuan-1-20-999-Gold-Pandas-both-in-Mint-Seal-Large-Small-Date-/321216490456?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item4ac9feabd8
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 03:42:57 PM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #140 on: September 25, 2013, 09:18:25 PM »
I'm beginning to think the older Panda market is at least half a casino with the large players pushing the prices around and dealing from another deck to suit their hands.
I feel like the guy at the poker table who is wondering who the sucker is.
Fixed my post.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #141 on: September 26, 2013, 12:01:20 AM »
Well put. N31
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #142 on: September 26, 2013, 12:52:01 AM »
can you tell me which year shenyang mint started with this pattern?

thank you



1985 was the first year that BU gold panda made at Shenyang Mint. 1982-1984 were made at Shanghai only.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #143 on: September 26, 2013, 12:58:22 AM »
Buy the coin, not the package or holder. Buy PA's book first, before buy the coins. PA's book has the best pictures of panda coins anywhere in the world.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #144 on: September 26, 2013, 01:04:58 AM »
Buy the coin, not the package or holder. Buy PA's book first, before buy the coins. PA's book has the best pictures of panda coins anywhere in the world.

Of course. Its just sad that rule needs to be heeded to be avoid taken advantage of by large dealers who should be honest.  And aren't.  See NBM's comment. Its ok for experienced buyers, knowing the inside secrets of reseals and cheats.  But to just leave it at that, and have new collectors be taken advantage of while they learn, just isn't right. Thanks Poconopenn for always stepping forward and helping id fakes.  And wg and other European collectors. And of course Panda Collector who has a site dedicated to it.
But the silence of the other long term members and leaders is strange and dissappointing.

Hey- how about this for an idea?  All the member dealers here, can log in and say "I reject the idea of reseals, and never sell them".  That way members can decide who is trustworthy and steer their business accordingly.
Those who are conspicuous by their silence, can be assumed to sell reseals or want the option to sell reseals.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 01:39:16 AM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline GDG's

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #145 on: September 26, 2013, 02:22:19 AM »
>>>Hey- how about this for an idea?  All the member dealers here, can log in and say "I reject the idea of reseals, and never sell them".  That way members can decide who is trustworthy and steer their business accordingly.
Those who are conspicuous by their silence, can be assumed to sell reseals or want the option to sell reseals.<<<

Good idea but fat chance. Since many doing this are the larger dealers I liken it to shooting oneself in their own foot. I appreciate all your fine posts in uncovering these cheats.

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #146 on: September 26, 2013, 03:44:19 AM »
 N48
hp&poconopenn

.

 :001_tt1:

today i get the first time pics (ebay) :001_wub:

hc 10394 i send back ... he will look closer :001_rolleyes:

best regards




Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #147 on: September 26, 2013, 11:48:35 AM »
wg, Hippanda etc.,
When you post these pictures could you label them or comment as to what you are seeing?
Others, like myself, may be having trouble understanding or seeing what you are pointing out.

In this post: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=9459.msg55395#msg55395
wg says "supplied by panda america".
I see what looks to be 1/2 oz coins, (1983, 1991, 1992, 1993 & 2000 all in the same seal?
Which mint's seal is this and when was it used?

The one that really confuses me is the Shanghai Ghetto medal.
I have no idea what I am looking at with this one.
I thought China Mint had done away with seals on their official products.
This is not true for medals?
These are all the same or different seals?



Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #148 on: September 26, 2013, 06:03:28 PM »
In this post: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=9459.msg55395#msg55395
wg says "supplied by panda america".
I see what looks to be 1/2 oz coins, (1983, 1991, 1992, 1993 & 2000 all in the same seal?
Which mint's seal is this and when was it used?

The ones wg posted are apparently not of any real mint.  They apparently try to imitate Shanghai Mint with its small slanted rectangles/. Similar to the fake posted on the first post of this thread with the 2001 coin.

For the ones eurokrem posted, those are VERY sloppily done, none of them appear to have even been cut square.

It would be embarrasing to think a big distributor could have done them in-house with those poor results. But they certainly know better, what real mint seals are, and would know they are "aftermarket" fakes even if they didnt seal them in-house. Why doesn't the alleged seller come on here and tell the story and clear the air?  Silence appears damning.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #149 on: September 27, 2013, 10:02:40 AM »
( .. )

The one that really confuses me is the Shanghai Ghetto medal.
I have no idea what I am looking at with this one.
I thought China Mint had done away with seals on their official products.
This is not true for medals?
These are all the same or different seals?

 ordered this one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121171964039&ssPageName=ADME:X:eRTM:US:1123
Silver Proof Medal w/OMP
i get two medals ...
the shanghai mint packing was opened and closed again ... only burned, no pattern.
.
the last answer from the dealer

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #150 on: September 27, 2013, 10:14:57 AM »

( .. )

hc 10394 i send back ... he will look closer


One of them is missing an edge that I had cut to
free the coin in capsule--4365. The seal marks are of two
lengths it appears.
All three of these coins came in airtight capsules as well.
I will keep in mind who sold them to me when they
come back from grading and conservation.
If they come back grading poorly, then they may have been
picked over.
 
Thank you.

Offline GDG's

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #151 on: September 27, 2013, 10:40:49 AM »
silver proof medal w/OMP in description body then claims did not say medals were sealed.

Then it is NOT in original mint package. Simple as that. Deceptive or Fraudulent practice. Every buyer can judge for themselves. I have also bought from this seller. Maybe I won't anymore. I begin to understand why novice collectors are shy to buy China Modern Coins.

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #152 on: September 27, 2013, 11:32:26 AM »
btw.

eurokrem

+1

indeed .. very interesting

( .. )

hippanda

please excuse me :001_rolleyes:

i was wrong :blushing:

Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #153 on: September 27, 2013, 05:31:47 PM »
Quote
the last answer from the dealer

"Proof Medal w/OMP" and picture shows sealed medal.

OH: "Pleading ignorance is the last refuge of the craven and corrupt."

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #154 on: September 27, 2013, 06:16:03 PM »
...if u do not like, we can exchange for u...
I'm only sorry that I got caught.


...BTW, other distributors just cut the seal and sell the medals in capsule only...
Two wrongs don't make a right.


Hands up for full disclosure.

Offline comeaux

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #155 on: September 27, 2013, 08:04:17 PM »
This resealing BS is one reason that I don’t buy “OMP” and never will again.

The resealing issue has been debated many times before here on CCF and my stance has always been that it’s revolting regardless of who is doing it. It’s just another blackeye on our hobby.

High accolades to all of the members who have contributed to this thread with posted examples of chicanery. I’ve learned a lot and I’m sure many others have as well. 

Sadly in almost any collectibles hobby there will be those who attempt to deceive others for profit.   

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #156 on: October 01, 2013, 05:54:09 AM »
Yet ANOTHER example - this is an accelerating plague of deception and fraud. Who is doing this?  
This auction from Coinnext shows a 1990 Small Date and Large Date, the Small Date on the left is apparently resealed in the same "Faux" mint wrap as in so many coins now popping up including the one that started this thread the 2001.
(Note : the seal in the 1990 besides being the wrong pattern doesn't even match up on the side.)

So who here is connected well enough to ask Coinnext, Panda America and Apmex what their source is for these coins?
Why is Panda Will of Panda America silent? Seems some representative of these dealers should post here their answers and if this is going to be a continued or discontinued practice in light of the fact its now been exposed? Continued silence from them is just bad business.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-1990-5-Yuan-1-20-999-Gold-Pandas-both-in-Mint-Seal-Large-Small-Date-/321216490456?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item4ac9feabd8



988 Singapore 5 Singold 1/20 oz Year of the Dragon Gold Coin in Mint Seal as pictured.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-Singapore-5-Singold-1-20-oz-Year-of-the-Dragon-Gold-Coin-in-Mint-Seal-/321192711131?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item4ac893d3db&nma=true&si=lyVzbxWJwJpWtoSj3CVDEu9QIX4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557



Offline KMJ.Michael

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #158 on: October 01, 2013, 08:54:27 PM »
Dear CCF Members,

It's a bit surprising to me that I would make my first introduction to you all in response to such an odd topic, but it seems like I might be able to address some of the concerns regarding the Shanghai Ghetto program, but before getting to that, I'll offer a quick introduction.

My name is Michael Lertchitvikul, and along with Ken Park, a 20 year veteran of PCGS, and Justin Park, one of the leading young numismatists in US and Modern Chinese Coins, I am a co-founder of the KMJ Group.  We are a Christian, faith-centered firm that specializes primarily in investment quality coins, specifically, ultra-high grade and highest graded specimens in Vintage US, Chinese, and World Coins, as well as key MCC Rarities.  As someone who is ethnically Chinese, has Jewish Godparents, and has studied Jewish culture and Hebrew (I know my Shema!), I am particularly honored that my firm is one of the primary distributors of the Shanghai Ghetto Program.

As a small plug for Stacks Bowers, my father, Nirat Lertchitvikul, is their Director of Asian Operations and responsible for all things Asia-Pacific, including their Hong Kong Auction.  If you are ever looking to consign coins to an auction house, feel free to let me know and I'll be happy to refer you to him directly.

As many of you know, the Chinese mints have stopped sealing via the capsule/plastic pouch method for quite some time now.  As many MCC collectors have a strong preference for the former sealing procedure, I advised the co-designer of this program, Danny Spungen, to ask the mint to go back to the former sealing method.  Frankly, the method of sealing really had zero significance to my company, as we are almost exclusively concentrating on the distribution of certified SGMs, but the suggestion was made to try to cater to the preferences of the MCC community.

Unfortunately, the sealing job done by the Shanghai Mint was a completely inadequate one, with many of the plastic sheets left improperly or partially sealed.  There were sheets of SGMs that that had extremely poor internal sealing such that several SGMs would slide out of their slot into one pouch.  When delivered, Danny saw the issue and  took it upon himself to personally purchase a sealing machine (I think he spent upwards of $7,000) so that he could properly secure the SGMs in place and protect them from bouncing against each other when transported.  There were several opportunities to reseal the sheets using more deceptive methods that would have made it appear as if they were perfectly sealed, but as there was no intent to deceive, they were sealed in a way that the differences to the original sealing were abundantly apparent.

I understand that some customers may be upset that they are buying a product that was not perfectly packaged according to their standards, and I also realize that full disclosure about all the headaches Danny had to put up with would have been appreciated earlier rather than later, but I hope the MCC community understands that there were no malicious attempts to deceptively reseal the product.  Going forward, I think I will suggest to Danny that it would probably be best to just have the mint ship out the coins in the tray-style packaging that they have been using over the past few years and completely avoid the drama surrounding sealed and resealed pouches!

If any of you would like to contact Danny himself to verify this account of our product, he is available for contact directly at Danny@whynotcollectibles.com.  Additionally, if there are ever any concerns with any project that my company is associated with, I would be more than happy to field any questions or concerns regarding that program directly.  You are welcome to contact me at Michael@theKMJGroup.com -  with any luck, I'll be able to spare you from all the rampant speculations on what kind of foul play may be taking place.  I trust that with transparency, we can reintroduce some of the joy back into collecting!

Best regards,

Michael Lertchitvikul
Chief Operations Officer
The KMJ Group

Offline Birdman

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #159 on: October 01, 2013, 09:07:58 PM »
Dear CCF Members,

It's a bit surprising to me that I would make my first introduction to you all in response to such an odd topic, but it seems like I might be able to address some of the concerns regarding the Shanghai Ghetto program, but before getting to that, I'll offer a quick introduction.

My name is Michael Lertchitvikul, and along with Ken Park, a 20 year veteran of PCGS, and Justin Park, one of the leading young numismatists in US and Modern Chinese Coins, I am a co-founder of the KMJ Group.  We are a Christian, faith-centered firm that specializes primarily in investment quality coins, specifically, ultra-high grade and highest graded specimens in Vintage US, Chinese, and World Coins, as well as key MCC Rarities.  As someone who is ethnically Chinese, has Jewish Godparents, and has studied Jewish culture and Hebrew (I know my Shema!), I am particularly honored that my firm is one of the primary distributors of the Shanghai Ghetto Program.

As a small plug for Stacks Bowers, my father, Nirat Lertchitvikul, is their Director of Asian Operations and responsible for all things Asia-Pacific, including their Hong Kong Auction.  If you are ever looking to consign coins to an auction house, feel free to let me know and I'll be happy to refer you to him directly.

As many of you know, the Chinese mints have stopped sealing via the capsule/plastic pouch method for quite some time now.  As many MCC collectors have a strong preference for the former sealing procedure, I advised the co-designer of this program, Danny Spungen, to ask the mint to go back to the former sealing method.  Frankly, the method of sealing really had zero significance to my company, as we are almost exclusively concentrating on the distribution of certified SGMs, but the suggestion was made to try to cater to the preferences of the MCC community.

Unfortunately, the sealing job done by the Shanghai Mint was a completely inadequate one, with many of the plastic sheets left improperly or partially sealed.  There were sheets of SGMs that that had extremely poor internal sealing such that several SGMs would slide out of their slot into one pouch.  When delivered, Danny saw the issue and  took it upon himself to personally purchase a sealing machine (I think he spent upwards of $7,000) so that he could properly secure the SGMs in place and protect them from bouncing against each other when transported.  There were several opportunities to reseal the sheets using more deceptive methods that would have made it appear as if they were perfectly sealed, but as there was no intent to deceive, they were sealed in a way that the differences to the original sealing were abundantly apparent.

I understand that some customers may be upset that they are buying a product that was not perfectly packaged according to their standards, and I also realize that full disclosure about all the headaches Danny had to put up with would have been appreciated earlier rather than later, but I hope the MCC community understands that there were no malicious attempts to deceptively reseal the product.  Going forward, I think I will suggest to Danny that it would probably be best to just have the mint ship out the coins in the tray-style packaging that they have been using over the past few years and completely avoid the drama surrounding sealed and resealed pouches!

If any of you would like to contact Danny himself to verify this account of our product, he is available for contact directly at Danny@whynotcollectibles.com.  Additionally, if there are ever any concerns with any project that my company is associated with, I would be more than happy to field any questions or concerns regarding that program directly.  You are welcome to contact me at Michael@theKMJGroup.com -  with any luck, I'll be able to spare you from all the rampant speculations on what kind of foul play may be taking place.  I trust that with transparency, we can reintroduce some of the joy back into collecting!

Best regards,

Michael Lertchitvikul
Chief Operations Officer
The KMJ Group

Welcome to the forum.  I've purchased several raw, old Asian coins from your father over the years.  They all graded authentic with problem-free surfaces.

Thank you for sharing this piece of the story regarding the sealing.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #160 on: October 01, 2013, 09:36:11 PM »
KMJ.Michael,
Thank you for your post and welcome to CCF!
 
I first read about the Shanghai Ghetto story in Peter's PricePedia.  It is both poignant and heart warming story.  I thank you and Danny Spungen for shine a bright light on this little-known but very significant history.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #161 on: October 01, 2013, 11:33:46 PM »
Michael,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for the clarification.

Please verify if the matching numbered gold and silver medal sets were sealed at Shanghai Mint and the resealed package is only for “some” individual 1 oz silver medal. The seal pattern of the gold  and silver set appears to be identical to the 2001 silver 1 oz panda, the last year that silver panda produced at Shanghai Mint.


Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #162 on: October 01, 2013, 11:58:40 PM »
Michael,
Thank you for giving us the history behind the Shanghai Ghetto program coin seals.
It is understandable and not surprising this occurred.
It is sad that the timing of the release would coincide with the information about fraudulent resealing of earlier MCC and possibly bring confusion between reputable members of the numismatic community and those who are less so.
As you have possibly been victimized so too are all legitimate dealers, collectors and investors of MCC.
I suspect the damage being done has only began to show it's ugly head... how far the rot goes depends on how fast the offenders can be stopped.
I don't understand the deafening silence from those who would be leaders in the industry... I can only assume they have been compromised and this cancer may be fatal.

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #163 on: October 02, 2013, 01:55:13 AM »
michael

thanks

btw

(I think he spent upwards of $7,000)

 :(

you'd have to ask mr xu hong
he would probably. can deliver better work and cheaper also determined.  :001_rolleyes:
.
we love double-backed new issues ...
only to protect us ... you call it "cherry picking".

best regards, wg

p.s.:everything was perfect :cursing:
encapsulate accurate and pvc free plastic

Offline KMJ.Michael

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #164 on: October 02, 2013, 02:49:28 AM »
Welcome to the forum.  I've purchased several raw, old Asian coins from your father over the years.  They all graded authentic with problem-free surfaces.

Thank you for sharing this piece of the story regarding the sealing.

Hopefully I'll be able to live up to my dad's reputation!  Also, I think you met our team back at the FUN show...  Justin specifically mentioned remembering you stopping by!

KMJ.Michael,
Thank you for your post and welcome to CCF!
 
I first read about the Shanghai Ghetto story in Peter's PricePedia.  It is both poignant and heart warming story.  I thank you and Danny Spungen for shine a bright light on this little-known but very significant history.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it is an absolute blessing and honor to be involved in the Shanghai Ghetto Memory project.  It has been really an amazing opportunity for my firm to be a part in the distribution of a product that has truly significant historical meaning, not to mention one with a rarity that we can truly stand behind as an investment firm.  I personally love telling the story to anyone and everyone who'll listen, investor, collector, customer, or simply curious child - being ethnically Chinese with such strong ties to Jewish culture, I really feel like this program is literally me on gold and silver planchets!

Michael,
Thank you for giving us the history behind the Shanghai Ghetto program coin seals.
It is understandable and not surprising this occurred.
It is sad that the timing of the release would coincide with the information about fraudulent resealing of earlier MCC and possibly bring confusion between reputable members of the numismatic community and those who are less so.
As you have possibly been victimized so too are all legitimate dealers, collectors and investors of MCC.
I suspect the damage being done has only began to show it's ugly head... how far the rot goes depends on how fast the offenders can be stopped.
I don't understand the deafening silence from those who would be leaders in the industry... I can only assume they have been compromised and this cancer may be fatal.

Unfortunately, in any market, there are always unethical ways to take abuse a commodity.  My firm is entirely against all kinds of deceptive practices, including the resealing coins that were raw to deceive customers into believing that they were untampered OMP coins.  It is our stance as a firm that we're not in the plastic business, nor are we in the label business, we're simply in the coin business.  As such, when making purchases, when purchasing material, we're not looking at the packaging or the slab it comes in, we're looking at the coin itself.  We're particularly fortunate to have an ex-PCGS grader, arguably one of the top two counterfeit detectors of Chinese Material, and 20 year grading veteran in Ken...  If you're ever at a show that we attend and ever have questions about the quality of coins, please feel free to swing by our table, we'd be more than happy to give you our opinion on what we see!


Please verify if the matching numbered gold and silver medal sets were sealed at Shanghai Mint and the resealed package is only for “some” individual 1 oz silver medal. The seal pattern of the gold  and silver set appears to be identical to the 2001 silver 1 oz panda, the last year that silver panda produced at Shanghai Mint.


Honestly, I am not certain how well the mint sealed the gold and silver medal sets, Danny sent my company's entire allotment of SGMs directly to NGC for certification.  Frankly, I would not be surprised if the gold coins had the same sealing issues as the silver ones - despite that, I can assure you that the integrity of the product was by no means compromised by any of the sealing issues.

michael

thanks

btw

(I think he spent upwards of $7,000)

 :(

you'd have to ask mr xu hong
he would probably. can deliver better work and cheaper also determined.  :001_rolleyes:
.
we love double-backed new issues ...
only to protect us ... you call it "cherry picking".

best regards, wg

p.s.:everything was perfect :cursing:
encapsulate accurate and pvc free plastic

I'm all for trying to do whatever I can to protect the collectors and investors out there - personally, I always recommend that people submit any coins worth protecting to be certified.  Ultimately, it's the best way to both protect your coin and guarantee your investment as genuine.

---


It's been quite an adventure over this past half year - there was more than a little bit of political intrigue surrounding this project.  Having a Chinese mint product officially commemorating a Jewish theme was no small task...

Interesting note:

The certificate of authenticity is written in both English and Chinese.

In the English version, it states, "I am Sara, a Jewish girl from Europe. In the 1930s my future was shadowed by the rise of the Nazis. My family and I were forced to abandon our happy lives and beautiful home to escape the Shoah..."

In the Chinese version, it reads similarly, but a key word that had to be removed.  It reads, "I am Sara, a girl from Europe..."

There's quite a few more interesting stories about all the challenges that had to be overcome in the production of the SGMs - Danny regularly says that he could write a book about all of it.  As this is the first of a five year series, I'll have to save some of the other interesting things he shared with me for when we move on to next year's series!

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #165 on: October 02, 2013, 10:02:38 AM »
Poconopenn knows wraps   N31

Here is the 1992 Shenyang Panda again in Triangle pattern, then 1991 in earlier Wire pattern.
So 1992 likely start first Shenyang Triangle pattern?

1987

http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-5-yuan-silver-proof-1987-Chinese-Cultural-Series-Poet-Du-Fu-Plastic-Pouch-/161082364187?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item258141d11b

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #166 on: October 03, 2013, 12:49:50 AM »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #167 on: October 03, 2013, 01:06:06 AM »
The historical figures should not be double sealed.  It is almost always in capsule only.  On several occasions, I ran across sheets of 10 of historical figures, but judging by the different varieties or frosting variations within each sheet of 10, I believe they are all aftermarket reseal.

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #168 on: October 03, 2013, 01:55:11 AM »
The historical figures should not be double sealed.  It is almost always in capsule only.  On several occasions, I ran across sheets of 10 of historical figures, but judging by the different varieties or frosting variations within each sheet of 10, I believe they are all aftermarket reseal.



shenyang triangle pattern maybe resealed aftermarket?

 :bored:




Offline GDG's

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #169 on: October 03, 2013, 12:05:03 PM »


shenyang triangle pattern maybe resealed aftermarket?

 :bored:


Thank you, wg, hippanda, poconopenn, birdman, and all others for expounding on the resealing of coins sold as OMP. Xu Hongs explanation to reseal after eliminating "red spots" was one thing but it seems to have morphed into something worse among quite a few dealers/sellers.

I think a consequence of this will be to buy graded coins vs. "OMP". With a reputable dealer who deals in graded coins you can rest easy. A few years back I bought many Au graded panda's from Jay of rare panda coins. Always a perfect transaction at fair prices and always left happy. I cannot say this about all my OMP purchases. I feel any "newbie" will be buying graded coins in the future. There are many dealers of graded CMC. Perhaps a thread should be added of all these dealers to help all newcomers to our hobby.



Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #170 on: October 03, 2013, 01:47:39 PM »
Yet ANOTHER example - this is an accelerating plague of deception and fraud. Who is doing this? 
This auction from Coinnext shows a 1990 Small Date and Large Date, the Small Date on the left is apparently resealed in the same "Faux" mint wrap as in so many coins now popping up including the one that started this thread the 2001.
(Note : the seal in the 1990 besides being the wrong pattern doesn't even match up on the side.)

So who here is connected well enough to ask Coinnext, Panda America and Apmex what their source is for these coins?
Why is Panda Will of Panda America silent? Seems some representative of these dealers should post here their answers and if this is going to be a continued or discontinued practice in light of the fact its now been exposed? Continued silence from them is just bad business.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-1990-5-Yuan-1-20-999-Gold-Pandas-both-in-Mint-Seal-Large-Small-Date-/321216490456?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item4ac9feabd8

 apmex

best regards

Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #171 on: October 04, 2013, 10:30:00 AM »
I am going to reluctantly throw my 2 cents in ,I buy a fair amount of coins from a dealer in China , he is a very honorable and we have enjoyed a nice business relationship and I consider him a friend , he had a sheet coming of  what appeared to be  2003 mirrored panda,s that I agreed to buy  he sent me photo,s and everything looked legit......... in the middle of the transaction he got the coins and he sent me an e mail , here is what he said , Joe ,I am reluctant to sell you these coins,I asked why, "he said the plastic sheet smells too new I think they where re-sealed "  then he went on to say " any registered dealer can walk in to the mint(Shanghai) and they will reseal coins for you at apx 1.50 usd per coin as lond as they are not fake and where produced at that mint

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #172 on: October 04, 2013, 01:02:20 PM »
sorry - your pic is too small, can't see anything.

but if i remember right 2003 mirror is made by shenyang mint, triangle pattern.

and they will reseal coins for you at apx 1.50 usd per coin as long as they are not fake and where produced at that mint

 :scared:

 N67

they need poconopenn only he can do this job :001_tt2:

edit. got it







Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #173 on: October 04, 2013, 01:48:27 PM »
While I am not certain, these silver pandas appear to my eyes (with this blurred photo) to be Frosted, not Mirror. It is hard to tell for sure.
If so, they would be from Shenyang mint, and the mint wrap in photo matches that.
"Plastic sheet smells too new" could result either from them being stored in an airtight storage (plastic bag?) or from a reseal on one side of the sheet. Difficult to tell from photo.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #174 on: October 04, 2013, 02:06:02 PM »
I think frosted are from the SG mint and mirror or satin from Shenyang.  However, there are 2003 pandas from Shenyang that are not mirror or satin.  The pouch design looks consistent with other Shenyang pouches.

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #175 on: October 04, 2013, 02:13:10 PM »
I think frosted are from the SG mint and mirror or satin from Shenyang. 


shenyang mint produce both kinds, mirror/satin and also frosted.


Offline 1668Chris

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #176 on: October 04, 2013, 02:19:29 PM »
Agreed  :001_smile:

Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #177 on: October 04, 2013, 03:13:37 PM »
sorry about the bad pictures  , it for sure is shenyang mint triangle pattern , the coins from the pictures I had at least some in the sheet where mirror,s........... the point of my original post was the simple fact ,that an extremely experienced dealer in China ,would not sell me the coins as he was fearful of a mint reseal ,and yes the mint does reseal for a fee ,I do not know if it is official or someone running a side business ,but I have no reason to distrust what this person says we have a great business relationship ,and the simple fact that he would not sell me the coins that he had in his possession speaks volumes to his statement after all he is in the business of selling me coins ,but he knows I grade 99% of what I buy and we have developed a great relationship so he had serious doubts about the integrity of this OMP  and just said to me let,s go on to the next thing.............

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #178 on: October 04, 2013, 03:37:11 PM »
jc888888888

 N48
you are well connected  :thumbup:

btw. xu hong and shanghai mint is an old story.

but resealing of shenyang mint, specially triangle pattern ...  N17

 

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #179 on: October 04, 2013, 05:02:52 PM »
It is my understanding that Shanghai and Shenzhen Mint will seal genuine MCC for a fee, but not Shenyang Mint. The sheet posted by jc88888888 is typical from Shenyang with extra film left on one edge (the middle line in the picture in this instant). The pouch matches the coin (mirror) inside.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #180 on: October 04, 2013, 05:07:51 PM »
Thanks WG for the comments........... BTW I think you just might have one of the best MCC collection on the planet N37........ congratulations

No one know,s for sure if the sheet I pictured where resealed or not ,even my guy in China could not say for 100% that they where resealed ,but he was leery enough  not to sell them to me and he handles lots of coins, he does however stand by the mint reseal statement 100%  , and having lived in China for 6 years in the early 90,s I can so see government officials who work for the mint creating a little cottage side business for themselves, it simply a way of life in China, BTW I am not bashing China I love the place ,it is just how things are done :blush: so the statement buy the coin not the grade has a new twist: buy the coin not the OMP  .

Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #181 on: October 04, 2013, 05:11:33 PM »
It is my understanding that Shanghai and Shenzhen Mint will seal genuine MCC for a fee, but not Shenyang Mint. The sheet posted by jc88888888 is typical from Shenyang with extra film left on one edge (the middle line in the picture in this instant). The pouch matches the coin (mirror) inside.
My thoughts too I will try to post the better pictures I have thanks

Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #182 on: October 04, 2013, 05:24:36 PM »
thanks

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #183 on: October 04, 2013, 05:37:03 PM »
quote author=poconopenn link=topic=9459.msg55565#msg55565 date=1380684826]
Michael,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for the clarification.

Please verify if the matching numbered gold and silver medal sets were sealed at Shanghai Mint and the resealed package is only for “some” individual 1 oz silver medal. The seal pattern of the gold  and silver set appears to be identical to the 2001 silver 1 oz panda, the last year that silver panda produced at Shanghai Mint.


[/quote]



Honestly, I am not certain how well the mint sealed the gold and silver medal sets, Danny sent my company's entire allotment of SGMs directly to NGC for certification.  Frankly, I would not be surprised if the gold coins had the same sealing issues as the silver ones - despite that, I can assure you that the integrity of the product was by no means compromised by any of the sealing issues.



Since you really did not answer my question, I have re-examined the gold and silver set bought recently from another distributor. It is obviously to me, those pouches have an “almost” identical sealing pattern as Shanghai Mint, but with different film (thinner and stiffer) and number of knots per inch. In other words, the $7,000 sealer, which the primary US distributor of this medal set bought, may be used to seal other MCC produced by Shanghai Mint. I have no problem with the quality of the medals or resealed pouch. However, when a reputable dealer may have a sealer with a sealing pattern almost identical to Shanghai Mint, it is very troublesome, regardless as you had claimed, " they were sealed in a way that the differences to the original sealing were abundantly apparent". The average OMP collectors may not see the difference.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #184 on: October 04, 2013, 05:50:24 PM »
poconopenn,any thoughts on the better photo as to the omp and whether or not the coins themselves are all mirror,s ? thanks

Offline comeaux

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #185 on: October 04, 2013, 07:21:13 PM »
poconopenn,any thoughts on the better photo as to the omp and whether or not the coins themselves are all mirror,s ? thanks

Hi Jc ... those that you posted are not mirror variety

Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #186 on: October 04, 2013, 07:37:31 PM »
Hi Jc ... those that you posted are not mirror variety
thanks buddy!

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #187 on: October 04, 2013, 08:49:07 PM »
The picture was taken from an angle and can not really determine if all coins in the sheet are mirror. The 10 Yuan should have a mirror surface regardless the coin is mirror or frosty, but the picture does not show that. The top left coin does show some mirror surface, suggest this coin is a mirror version.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #188 on: October 04, 2013, 08:54:41 PM »
The picture was taken from an angle and can not really determine if all coins in the sheet are mirror. The 10 Yuan should have a mirror surface regardless the coin is mirror or frosty, but the picture does not show that. The top left coin does show some mirror surface, suggest this coin is a mirror version.
thank you

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #189 on: October 06, 2013, 02:10:28 AM »
The historical figures should not be double sealed.  It is almost always in capsule only. On several occasions, I ran across sheets of 10 of historical figures, but judging by the different varieties or frosting variations within each sheet of 10, I believe they are all aftermarket reseal.
excuse me - do you remember the pattern of the resealed sheets?
only shanghai mint or also triangle pattern?
It is my understanding that Shanghai and Shenzhen Mint will seal genuine MCC for a fee, but not Shenyang Mint. ( .. )

 is my underständing too.
i believe that the triangle pattern from the restrikes ( hist.fig.) is omp.
problem ... i'm not very well connected with mdm :001_rolleyes:
https://www.mdm.de/interesse_contentbanner13

best regards, wg

p.s.:  jc888888888

 N48 ;), but you are dreaming my dream :001_tt2:
it is only a small collection :blushing:








Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #190 on: October 08, 2013, 12:59:51 AM »
excuse me - do you remember the pattern of the resealed sheets?
only shanghai mint or also triangle pattern?
I'm unable to locate the pictures of the historical figures in sheet of 10.  they were 6 months old or longer.
I did find a picture of 1989 HF set double sealed in current eBay auction:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHINA-1989-SILVER-5-YUAN-HISTORICAL-LEGAL-TENDER-COIN-SET-/321127435995?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item4ac4afcedb

DiggingNorway also posted a number of HF in double seal on CCF.  see:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg26568#msg26568
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3719.msg25246#msg25246
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3719.msg25263#msg25263
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3719.msg25267#msg25267

I'm not a student of seal patterns.  Judging from the discussion on this thread, the seal patterns have been compromised and can no longer serve as the litmus test of OMP.

Offline Birdman

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #191 on: October 08, 2013, 07:39:49 AM »
I'm not a student of seal patterns.  Judging from the discussion on this thread, the seal patterns have been compromised and can no longer serve as the litmus test of OMP.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, given the sum of recent developments, but that is a significant statement.  It is amazing how quickly sentiment on OMP can swing in just a few months...

Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #192 on: October 08, 2013, 09:15:07 AM »
I think frosted are from the SG mint and mirror or satin from Shenyang. 


shenyang mint produce both kinds, mirror/satin and also frosted.

As a follow up 2 sheets of these coins where sent to NGC ,(not by me ) 9 came back as mirror,s and 11 came back as frosted.......... so I am not an expert,but it would stand to reason that these coins where resealed ?? would shenyang mint mix 2 different types as they would have to come off 2 different presses and then be put into one sheet?  I dont know i am just posing a question , I am a little perplexed as to some comments about the Shanghai mint resealing but the Shenyang mint doesn't... it would appear that if one did another most probably does??



Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #193 on: October 08, 2013, 09:24:03 AM »
Quote
As a follow up 2 sheets of these coins where sent to NGC ,(not by me ) 9 came back as mirror,s and 11 came back as frosted.

How did they grade?

Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #194 on: October 08, 2013, 09:27:11 AM »
 I dont have an exact count , no 70,s ,mostly 69,s and a few of 68,s

Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #195 on: October 08, 2013, 10:05:31 AM »
Thank you.
I wonder how this compares to other sheets of 2003's...

Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #196 on: October 08, 2013, 10:24:11 AM »
Thank you.
I wonder how this compares to other sheets of 2003's...
about average ,you can expect apx 75/80% 69,s out of a good quality  2001,2001d  ,2002 ,2003 sheet from my past experience

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #197 on: October 10, 2013, 11:46:15 AM »

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #198 on: October 14, 2013, 08:44:23 AM »


Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #200 on: October 16, 2013, 12:34:31 AM »
with mint slip

:001_tongue:

BUT I GUARANTEE THAT IT IS ORIGINAL PACKAGING ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-China-1-oz-Gold-Coin-100-Yuan-Large-Date-Serif-Panda-on-Cliff-Rare-/200975113234?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2ecb0cdc12

MINT SEALED COIN,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-China-Panda-100-Yuan-Frosted-1-00-Ounce-Gold-Coin-Mint-Sealed-Proof-Like-/200975107454?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2ecb0cc57e

I AM A MEMBER OF THE ANA AND ICTA

The pouch of 1999 serif 1 and 2000 frosty gold panda from Shenzhen Mint has a special seal pattern. The pictures of both listings by this seller show the pouch to be identical to the attached picture. IMO, they are genuine Shenzhen Mint pouch.

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #201 on: October 16, 2013, 02:07:38 AM »
excuse me, i think 1999 is resealed
and 2000 at least questionable.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 02:30:15 AM by wg »

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #202 on: October 16, 2013, 03:09:40 AM »

maybe you're right and the mint has only worked sloppy. ;)

best regards

p.s.: i don't send coins for grading :001_rolleyes:
3 sides most time genuine ... if you "pay for omp" you must see all 4 sides clearly.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 03:31:42 AM by wg »


Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #204 on: October 17, 2013, 05:11:34 AM »
back too the roots :001_rolleyes:

This is a beautiful coin. Coin is in the plastic case and has never been touched!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GORGEOUS-ONE-OUNCE-1986-PANDA-GOLD-COIN-999-GOLD-/151145086556?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2330f2fe5c

Offline Pandapaule

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #205 on: October 17, 2013, 02:17:10 PM »
Can you please help me? Are these pandas OMP foil or Fake?  :(





Thank you



Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #208 on: October 22, 2013, 02:33:02 AM »

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #209 on: October 22, 2013, 04:12:32 AM »
proof got 999ag 1oz words write under the dragon

 unc is without 999Ag 1oz


http://www.ebay.de/itm/1990-china-dragon-and-Phoenix-proof-silver-coin-/171147468456?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item27d92f1ea8

 :001_unsure:  :blushing: triangle pattern 1990  

1 oz 1990 d&ph proof with 3 different shenyang mint pattern :tongue_smilie: :w00t:

    

Offline wg

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Offline wg

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Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #212 on: October 25, 2013, 02:02:25 PM »
Mislabels of 1990 Dragon and Phoenix are very common.  See NGC cert numbers:
3449636-039      
3449636-040      
2755419-010      
2755419-012   
3300229-003
2755419-011      
2755419-013      
2761240-013      
2761240-014   
3449636-038
2755419-014
3539207-020      
3539207-011   

Some mislabels are more insidious: 
2754531-001      
2754531-002      
2754531-003      
2754531-004      
2754531-005   
are properly labelled, but it is incorrectly attributed as PF, so the census is contaminated with such mislabels.


Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #214 on: October 26, 2013, 08:36:01 AM »
Genuine original OMP on this listing????? thanks  181245362410

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #215 on: November 02, 2013, 04:20:21 AM »
*Mintage only 5,000 for worldwide distribution!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380760449832&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

 :blink:
but I gotta listen to NGC on this one.  :001_tt2:

bu mintage 5k

http://www.ngccoin.com/priceguide/chinese-coin-prices-detail.aspx?lang=en-US&ChineseSetID=623&subcat=unicorn-coin-prices

1996 CHINA    G5Y    UNICORN    MS    223    244    268    295    323    351    392    537    717    940    1210


Offline NBM

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #217 on: November 14, 2013, 11:32:30 AM »
wg, what does the hologrammed piece say on it?
Something about 8coins.com?

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #218 on: November 14, 2013, 12:44:28 PM »
nbm

the buyers get only hologrammed fakes. ;)

fake au 9,28 gramm with capsule and plastic + :thumbup: hologramm
fake ag 36,9 - 37,7 gramm with capsule + plastic

should be without plastic, only coin + capsule 10,28 gramm 36,63 gramm.

nice coin; thanks   Buyer:
g***0 ( 164Teal star icon for feedback score in between 100 to 499)
   Nov-07-13 19:00
    2013 China World Heritage Huangshan Mountain 1/4oz Gold , 4x1oz Silver Coin COA (#251364276299)   US $762.00   View Item

Reliable seller!   Buyer:
r***s ( 5 )
   Nov-05-13 02:10
    2013 China Sacred Buddhist Mountain Mount Putuo Gold and Silver Comm Coins UNC (#251356647046)   US $500.00   View Item


Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #219 on: November 14, 2013, 12:53:34 PM »
clearly fake coins

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #220 on: November 14, 2013, 02:17:36 PM »
clearly fake coins

All my items are 100% Original photo and Genuine.


Offline jc888888888

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #221 on: November 14, 2013, 02:24:54 PM »
my comment about fake was those hologram sealed coins

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #222 on: November 24, 2013, 11:15:29 AM »

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #223 on: November 26, 2013, 02:20:56 PM »
 rare, unfortunately, very rare

 N31

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NICE-2007-1-4-oz-999-Gold-Chinese-Panda-NOT-Sealed-in-Plastic-/350939450201?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item51b59f0b59

N66 N66 N66

NICE - 2007 - 1/4 oz .999 Gold Chinese Panda - (NOT Sealed in Plastic)

The coin was removed from mint plastic and has some minor scratching.   The pictures are of the exact coin you are bidding on.



Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #224 on: December 07, 2013, 01:52:24 AM »

Offline Birdman

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #225 on: December 14, 2013, 09:50:03 AM »

Offline trozau

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #226 on: December 14, 2013, 11:27:55 AM »
^LOL^  N17  N16
trozau (troy ounce gold)
honi soit qui mal y pense

gold - the barbarous relic!

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #227 on: January 12, 2014, 11:49:08 AM »
What's wrong with this picture?

"2001 1 oz Gold Chinese Panda Coin - Sealed in Plastic
Buy with confidence from APMEX on eBay!"
                              


Münze hat einen leichten Randschaden

Coin has a slight edge damage

http://www.ebay.de/itm/251422473095




Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #228 on: January 15, 2014, 11:57:46 AM »

Offline AllSong

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #229 on: January 15, 2014, 04:13:56 PM »
"Boards don´t hit back!"

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #230 on: January 16, 2014, 01:56:00 AM »
allsong

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=9459.165
    
Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #165 on: October 02, 2013, 10:02:38 AM »  ;)

best regards

Offline AllSong

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #231 on: January 16, 2014, 04:20:24 PM »
Thanks WG or whatever to say in such situation  :cursing:

I have had many lessons lately, but frankly, I would have prefered to pay sifus from this forum,
than those misleading (or miseducated) ebay sellers  N24
"Boards don´t hit back!"

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #232 on: January 16, 2014, 08:59:33 PM »
Could you please tell me something about the plastic pouch in this lisiting 360797705791 ? I´d really appreciate it.

The pouch is Shenyang Mint and looks original.

Offline jc888888888

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Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #234 on: February 12, 2014, 02:32:12 AM »
Is everything marketed as "Mirror" now, (even incorrectly) to try and squeeze an extra buck out of it?
Even obvious Shenyang frosted?

Or simple innocent error?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-1oz-G500Y-China-Mirrored-bamboo-gold-panda-coin-Shenyang-mint-/251449158783?hash=item3a8b89ac7f
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #235 on: February 12, 2014, 12:13:42 PM »

i think to call them "mirror/frosted" wasn't a good idea. :001_rolleyes:

1 oz shenyang bamboo looks like mirrored ... no doubt.

Offline wg

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Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #237 on: April 14, 2014, 01:29:10 PM »

Offline CPC

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #238 on: April 15, 2014, 02:40:43 AM »
I wonder if those pouches are PVC free...

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #239 on: July 07, 2014, 09:18:36 AM »

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #240 on: July 24, 2014, 10:50:41 AM »
sometimes i wish they are resealed  :001_rolleyes:

for ex .. before i get pandas like this. :(

regards


 :thumbup1:

teachable



« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 11:31:12 AM by wg »

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #241 on: July 24, 2014, 12:31:10 PM »
 :001_wub:

some more omp

Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #242 on: July 24, 2014, 12:35:11 PM »
   :001_wub:  Nothing wrong with these pictures!!   :thumbup:

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #243 on: July 24, 2014, 10:42:52 PM »
So the lack of obvious "ironed" sealed edge means someone now has replicated the old seal patterns in a sealing machine?

If so, buyers of OMP now need to be on the alert and now confirm other subtle clues confirming the integrity of OMP coins.

Implications are that a coin may have been once submitted for grading, received a lower than desired grade, and now seller is trying to "recycle" and pass off as pristine / (not yet graded) a coin in an intentionally misleading / fraudulent plastic mint wrap

.http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-1-oz-Gold-Chinese-Panda-Coin-Sealed-in-Plastic-/111168216927?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item19e2245f5f

From WG : " fake folie"

That's why I've always discourage collectors from buying OMP.

It's much harder to imitate and re-seal a PCGS slab.


:001_wub:

some more omp

I would sell all of them to PCGS for grading.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #244 on: July 24, 2014, 11:44:04 PM »
:001_wub:

some more omp.

Very nice. Extra protection with a outer bag. This is definitely better than zip bag inside the pouch.

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #245 on: July 25, 2014, 01:23:29 AM »
Giving advice to member WG about gold pandas is like bringing Santa Clause a sack of presents.  N16

Thanks for the pictures. I only wish my collection was as full as yours!

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #246 on: July 25, 2014, 01:48:56 AM »
Giving advice to member WG about gold pandas is like bringing Santa Clause a sack of presents.  N16

Thanks for the pictures. I only wish my collection was as full as yours!

Then WG, ignore my message here.

I was just sharing what I would do. What you would do is up to you and perfectly fine with me too.

Offline Ilovecoins

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #247 on: July 25, 2014, 04:56:30 AM »
Then WG, ignore my message here.

I was just sharing what I would do. What you would do is up to you and perfectly fine with me too.

Contrapunctus
I am interested in collecting Straits Coins in PCGS
Can you tell me your ebay Store?

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #248 on: August 06, 2014, 10:55:34 AM »
Very nice. Extra protection with a outer bag. This is definitely better than zip bag inside the pouch.

 :lol:

best regards

Offline omphalos008

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #249 on: January 07, 2015, 08:50:46 PM »
More examples of Shenyang Mint seal pattern for silver coins..

New to the forum and Gold Panda collecting in general so let me first say hello and thanks to anyone willing to help. I just bought this coin from eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/381108292130?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

My focus was on the coin itself, which looked genuine to me so I bought it but now that it's arrived I find the plastic seal to be odd. As you can see in the photos each edge lacks the pattern that seems characteristic of gold panda OMP. Instead 3 edges have a smooth appearance with a pattern of 3 dashes every few spaces. Also on one edge (the top edge in most of the photos) there's a flap of plastic that folds over the top of the pouch. All 4 sides are indeed sealed close. Something about it just seems off. Can anyone help shed some light on this? I've pulled up a number of other auctions for 1987-Y 10Y gold pandas and many actually have a similar plastic pouch:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-1-10-oz-Chinese-Gold-Panda-10-Yuan-Rare-Key-Date-Low-Mintage-999-Sealed-/291264690754?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item43d0ba7a42

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-China-Panda-10-Yuan-1-10-Oz-999-Gold-Coin-Lot-of-7-Sealed-Mint-Packaging-/191446141001?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2c93144849

Is this just a nuance of that particular year and mint? Or is something more sinister going on? It's package seems similar to the Shenyang packaging for silver coins posted by poconopenn. Thanks in advance for any help.

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #250 on: January 13, 2015, 02:50:41 PM »
( .. )

Crazy to think somebody is aftermarket sealing all these coins, huh?

That seal, if not legit, perhaps an effort to pass as this Shenyang style:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHINA-10-Yuan-1991-Womens-Football-PROOF-RARE-/331443625671?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item4d2b945ec7

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #251 on: July 24, 2015, 08:05:22 AM »
..


Offline wg

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Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #253 on: March 23, 2016, 02:43:04 PM »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline dynamike51

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #254 on: March 23, 2016, 02:58:40 PM »
WWWTP?


I think naomi01225 and au3000 are running head-to-head in terms of sellers you want to stay away from. (mainly because of pricing)

Offline dynamike51

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #255 on: March 23, 2016, 07:21:06 PM »
WWWTP?


hippanda,

to your question, "what's wrong with this picture?" - that's obviously a reseal, and a poor one at that.   N32

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #256 on: March 23, 2016, 09:04:19 PM »


abi-handel "omp"

http://www.ebay.de/sch/m.html?_odkw=panda+1999&_ssn=abi-handel&hash=item3d12d248a0%3Ag%3A2PYAAOSw3KFWcpb0&item=262308776096&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313.TR4.TRC1.A0.H0.Xpanda+2000.TRS0&_nkw=panda+2000&_sacat=0

  1/10  omp
1/4 oz resealed
1 oz resealed


Just for information.

Attached pictures are Shenzhen Mint pouch.

For 1999 and 2000, the pouch does not have imprint of Shenzhen Guobao Mint at one or two sides of edge.  All four sides show the same braid pattern. Sometimes, one side with straight angle at inner corners may be flat and shows very little braid pattern. Please note the pouch always shows two curved and two straight inner corners as marked in the pictures.

Based on the picture, 2000 1/10 oz. coin may be sealed recently at Shenzhen Mint, since it shows the imprint of Shenzhen Guobao Mint on two sides, similar to 2008 pouch as in the attached picture. I believe that imprint of Shenzhen Guobao Mint on the edge of the pouch started at 2002.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #257 on: March 23, 2016, 10:07:31 PM »
Buy the coin; not the holder.  As anyone with enough $ can "buy the mint" to do the reseal with the "official" seal pattern on the holder.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #258 on: March 24, 2016, 12:21:27 AM »
Buy the coin; not the holder.  As anyone with enough $ can "buy the mint" to do the reseal with the "official" seal pattern on the holder.

There are posts in the CCF archives that attest to the fact that this is already happening. Unfortunately, this gives OMP a bad name!
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline Hippanda

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #259 on: March 24, 2016, 12:37:49 AM »
... Unfortunately, this gives OMP a bad name!

Which creates a golden opportunity for those who know what to look for.  ;-)

"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #260 on: March 24, 2016, 01:23:11 AM »
Poconopenn knows wraps   N31

Here is the 1992 Shenyang Panda again in Triangle pattern, then 1991 in earlier Wire pattern.
So 1992 likely start first Shenyang Triangle pattern?

1 g 91 with triangle pattern

http://www.ebay.de/itm/China-3x-GOLD-2x-10-Yuan-Marco-Polo-1983-je-1x-PP-BU-und-1x-3-Yuan-Panda-1993-/252325673348?hash=item3abfc83984:g:w04AAOSwHxVW7YQd

Offline wg

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #261 on: March 24, 2016, 01:27:54 AM »

( .. )

 I believe that imprint of Shenzhen Guobao Mint on the edge of the pouch started at 2002.


2001d has imprint of shenzhen guobao mint on the edge of the pouch.


Offline wg

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