Author Topic: Jay's New Article!  (Read 4412 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PandaQuest

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
  • Karma: 13

Offline GoldMedal

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 139
  • Karma: 3
Re: Jay's New Article!
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2013, 09:24:00 PM »
Thank you!

Offline NBM

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 732
  • Karma: 31
Re: Jay's New Article!
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2013, 09:07:40 PM »
Always look forward to new posts by Jay, thanks!

Offline GoldMedal

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 139
  • Karma: 3
Re: Jay's New Article!
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2013, 10:13:20 PM »
how about those PF/MS 70 MCC?

Offline Jay

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
  • Karma: 19
    • Rare Panda Coins Inc
Re: Jay's New Article!
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2013, 02:06:14 AM »
I am not a big fan of the ms70 grade for 2 reasons:

1) MS70 grades are more about coin marketing than any measurable quality level. Most ms70s will not regrade as 70s if cracked out and resubmitted (I have tried it), so it is arbitrary and dependent on the whims of the grading services.

2) Chinese collectors are a big force in the market, but they usually do not pay much extra for better grades.  When chinese buying heats upup as it did last spring, relative premiums collapse as the prices of raw and 69 coins catches up to ms70s.  This is in part because NGC destroyed chinese confidence in the ms70 grade by overgeading many coins during their 2010 China launch. (See #1)

Offline GDG's

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 658
  • Karma: 45
Re: Jay's New Article!
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2013, 07:01:18 AM »
Re: CMC's I agree with Jay 100%. Slabs still protect the coins but even a slab does not guarantee 100% authenticity anymore. As long as proper OMP can protect the coin and you are happy with it why pay a fee to have it graded along with the risk of losing the coin in shipping.

Offline GDG's

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 658
  • Karma: 45
Re: Jay's New Article!
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2013, 07:03:57 AM »
7/29/2013 - Burglary   
At approximately 10:45pm on July 29th John Maben Rare Coins was the victim of a smash and grab. The suspects possibly used a shotgun to break a glass window and entered the office.

They grabbed inventory from a cart that was in the office. It happened very quickly. The whole thing took less than 2 minutes. There were two or three people involved. One male approximately 6 foot 200 pounds wore a ski mask, long sleeved shirt, rubber gloves, and possibly one smaller subject aprox. 5 foot 110-120 pounds.

If you have any information about this crime, please Give a Tip

Offline GoldMedal

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 139
  • Karma: 3
Re: Jay's New Article!
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2013, 10:55:08 AM »
I am not a big fan of the ms70 grade for 2 reasons:

1) MS70 grades are more about coin marketing than any measurable quality level. Most ms70s will not regrade as 70s if cracked out and resubmitted (I have tried it), so it is arbitrary and dependent on the whims of the grading services.

2) Chinese collectors are a big force in the market, but they usually do not pay much extra for better grades.  When chinese buying heats upup as it did last spring, relative premiums collapse as the prices of raw and 69 coins catches up to ms70s.  This is in part because NGC destroyed chinese confidence in the ms70 grade by overgeading many coins during their 2010 China launch. (See #1)
Thank you!


Offline BobW

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
  • Karma: 15
Re: Jay's New Article!
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2013, 02:46:13 PM »
I believe there are a few modern Chinese coins which have characteristics which make it possible to readily distinguish between a "70" and a "69". These coins will have few graded as "70" when compared to the population of coins graded "69" or less. The distinguishing grading factor is typically strike due to an intricate design. Comparing a "69" with a "70" side-by-side should make the difference apparent.

One such example is the silver 10 yuan Two Peacocks coin of 1997.

NGC has graded 260 Peacocks of which 4 have received a grade of 70; PCGS has graded 105 Peacocks of which 2 have received a grade of 70. Also about half of the populations are graded less than 69.

Another factor that I consider important. The percentage of 70s given by NGC compared to PCGS should be fairly close. To me this implies that both grading services recognize the grade difference and there is indeed one.

I do not believe the grades given to coins such as these are arbitrary or dependent on the whims of the grading services but readily admit these coins are exceptions.
 


Offline GDG's

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 658
  • Karma: 45
Re: Jay's New Article!
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2013, 03:05:30 PM »
I believe there are a few modern Chinese coins which have characteristics which make it possible to readily distinguish between a "70" and a "69". These coins will have few graded as "70" when compared to the population of coins graded "69" or less. The distinguishing grading factor is typically strike due to an intricate design. Comparing a "69" with a "70" side-by-side should make the difference apparent.


Do you think the graders have a 70 coin there that they use to compare to the submitted coin?

I agree with Jay that the grading on CMC's have been all over the place. Would I as a long time collector of CMC's place a tremendous premium on a 70 grade vs. a 69 grade? No I would not. I believe MANY serious collectors who do spend a lot of money on their collections feel the same way.




 



Offline Jay

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
  • Karma: 19
    • Rare Panda Coins Inc
Re: Jay's New Article!
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2013, 03:09:45 PM »
BobW,  I agree with you.  I can accept MS70 as a very rare and special grade given to unusually perfect coins.  

My problem is with the mass production of MS70s from many modern coins.  I dont think these coin get enough scrutiny to make the claim.  PCGS and NGC have so far have awarded MS70 to over 60% of the 2013 500Y gold pandas submitted.  I have personally seen crappy coins in MS70 holders.  

As long as NGC/PCGS dont decide to apply such lax standards to your peacocks, you are ok.

Offline BobW

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
  • Karma: 15
Re: Jay's New Article!
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2013, 04:33:20 PM »
Do you think the graders have a 70 coin there that they use to compare to the submitted coin?

No this would be impractical.

I believe there are coins which are notorious for having less than full strikes. In the case of the 1997 peacocks, the reverse of the coin has numerous fine lines. Rarely are they all fully struck. So it is pretty easy to determine if a peacock is deserving of the highest grade. The finish on these coins can also be a problem.

I do think an experienced grader of modern coins knows the quirks of most of the coins he grades and can quickly assign a grade without much effort. There are some coins which everyone can do the same once someone points out what to look for. Often times the differences are subtle and very subjective. Most coins I could look at for hours and not tell the difference between a 69 and a 70. I try to limit my purchases of 70 coins to those which I can tell the difference and so could anyone else if they were told what to look for.

I have submitted multiples of the same coin and received a 70 on one of the coins. I have looked at the 70 coin numerous times and have not been able to find any difference between it and the other coins. I have asked others to see if they could find a difference and they could not. I have also looked at numerous 69 coins and thought they were nicer coins than "identical" coins graded 70. I am sure my experiences are the same for just about everyone else.