Author Topic: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.  (Read 4536 times)

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Offline remetalk

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Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« on: August 09, 2013, 09:37:45 AM »
Left coin: The August 2012 Hong Kong Auction, Lot #50149,  NGC graded  AU-55.
Two other coins were sold as a lot on Five Stars auction, Toronto, Canada in June 2012

Offline KONDi

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2013, 09:56:00 AM »
It seems that NGC graded except this silver-made fake Fengtien dragon dollar also silver-made fake fatman dollar 1919.
The other 2 YSK 1919 in raw also look for me like silver-made fakes.

Such of action of putting into slab silver-made fake reduces trust to NGC. It shows that we should always judge the coin, no matter it is graded or in raw.

Good job remetalk!
KONDi
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Offline happycoins II

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2013, 09:24:02 AM »
It seems that NGC graded except this silver-made fake Fengtien dragon dollar also silver-made fake fatman dollar 1919.
The other 2 YSK 1919 in raw also look for me like silver-made fakes.

Such of action of putting into slab silver-made fake reduces trust to NGC. It shows that we should always judge the coin, no matter it is graded or in raw.

Good job remetalk!

Dear KONDi, I still don't get how you could decide that these coins are fake. Did you see the coins' edge?

To me, a machine-made coin with a same die would have the same marks and details so they should look identical, unlike a hand-made coins, i.e. ancient coins or sycees that should not look the same.

Can you explain me a bit?

Thanks,

Happycoins II

Offline remetalk

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2013, 11:37:04 AM »
Weight of 2 and 3 coins: 26.8g
Rim - picture below.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2013, 02:14:51 PM »
Happycoins, your reasonning is sound but you have to look at the highlighted marks. They are incuse and deep, like circulation marks would be. For the die to leave this kind of marks, it would need to have something really hard protruding from it. Some debris or dirt stuck on the die could leave marks, but such marks would not be so deep and identical from one coin to another like those.

Offline remetalk

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2013, 02:33:08 PM »
On  Russian forum was a  discussion regarding these coins. As one of the hypotheses it has been suggested that these coins were minted by provincial mint, which did not have access to  original dies and as a "mother's"  cliche (positive) for working  dies (negative)  a coin taken from circulation  had been used. What do you think?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 02:56:05 PM by remetalk »

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2013, 03:03:25 PM »
This seems very unlikely, as far as I know the 1919 dollar was minted only in Tianjin, Anqing and Hangzhou with official dies from Tianjin. If this was 1914 or 1920 dollars, it may be another story. Anyway, if a third party mint could make such nice dies from circulated coins, without doubling/die rotation or anything, they would also likely have polished their dies, eliminating such obvious defects.

Offline remetalk

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2013, 03:27:56 PM »
On the other hand, look at the portrait - it is very rough  (shape of the nose, for example). If it is a product of a modern forger, it looks a little strange. Actually, just imperfect portrait   has pushed me to the detailed investigation of these coins. It looks like  manufacturer  absolutely do not  care about the exterier  of the coin but only metrology and weight.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2013, 04:02:09 PM »

Dear KONDi, I still don't get how you could decide that these coins are fake. Did you see the coins' edge?

To me, a machine-made coin with a same die would have the same marks and details so they should look identical, unlike a hand-made coins, i.e. ancient coins or sycees that should not look the same.

Can you explain me a bit?

Thanks,

Happycoins II

Counterfeiters can not afford to purchase high grade (MS64 or better) genuine coin to make production die for high quality fake coins, since the original genuine coin will be damaged during the die making process. Usually, counterfeiter purchase AU condition coin which always has some defects and scratch marks on the surface. The reproduction die will retain those defects and scratch marks. Therefore, all copies the counterfeiter makes will have the same defect or scratch marks. Odds are against to have two or more coins having several identical marks in the exact same spots for circulated coin. The counterfeiter knows the problem of those identical marks. The fake coins in the market place are usually in AU or lower condition and heavily polished and re-toned to mask those marks, but not completely and are still detectable.

The dark mirror-like surface in the second and third coins around the third Chinese character from right of the obverse suggest the area was polished with a very fine particle polish agent to remove the lumps which shown in the first coin. The small lump at the right side of the letter can still be detected.

Offline happycoins II

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2013, 09:44:51 PM »
Weight of 2 and 3 coins: 26.8g
Rim - picture below.
Happycoins, your reasonning is sound but you have to look at the highlighted marks. They are incuse and deep, like circulation marks would be. For the die to leave this kind of marks, it would need to have something really hard protruding from it. Some debris or dirt stuck on the die could leave marks, but such marks would not be so deep and identical from one coin to another like those.
Wow, this is a very topic indeed. However, by seeing the coins' edge, I would still think that these coins are genuine.
My reason is that this kind of edge (with a thin line in between) is similar to Thai coins' edge which were produced by Thai mint by an imported machine from Europe at the same period (early 1900). I was told by a fellow Thai collectors that such a machine is quite sophisticate and expensive to create, which I still have a big doubt that the counterfeiters have enough resources to create the same type of machine.



Counterfeiters can not afford to purchase high grade (MS64 or better) genuine coin to make production die for high quality fake coins, since the original genuine coin will be damaged during the die making process. Usually, counterfeiter purchase AU condition coin which always has some defects and scratch marks on the surface. The reproduction die will retain those defects and scratch marks. Therefore, all copies the counterfeiter makes will have the same defect or scratch marks. Odds are against to have two or more coins having several identical marks in the exact same spots for circulated coin. The counterfeiter knows the problem of those identical marks. The fake coins in the market place are usually in AU or lower condition and heavily polished and re-toned to mask those marks, but not completely and are still detectable.

The dark mirror-like surface in the second and third coins around the third Chinese character from right of the obverse suggest the area was polished with a very fine particle polish agent to remove the lumps which shown in the first coin. The small lump at the right side of the letter can still be detected.

On the other hand, look at the portrait - it is very rough  (shape of the nose, for example). If it is a product of a modern forger, it looks a little strange. Actually, just imperfect portrait   has pushed me to the detailed investigation of these coins. It looks like  manufacturer  absolutely do not  care about the exterier  of the coin but only metrology and weight.
This seems very unlikely, as far as I know the 1919 dollar was minted only in Tianjin, Anqing and Hangzhou with official dies from Tianjin. If this was 1914 or 1920 dollars, it may be another story. Anyway, if a third party mint could make such nice dies from circulated coins, without doubling/die rotation or anything, they would also likely have polished their dies, eliminating such obvious defects.
Have you guys ever heard about restriking by using an original imperfect die to reproduce the 1919 YSK coin? If so, I believe a record of official restriking would lead us to a conclusion.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2013, 01:43:27 AM »
Happycoins, the edges are not correct. They should look like this (8 year regular version):
http://jd.cang.com/775604.html

Edit: I posted a bit too fast, these coins are fake 左钩芒  N2 The point still stand, their edge is not comfortable compared to the real thing.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2013, 01:57:58 AM »
You can see the edges for each type here:
http://jd.cang.com/244688.html

The edge of these fake coins tries to copy the 左钩芒 version:
http://jd.cang.com/472598.html

Offline happycoins II

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2013, 06:31:20 AM »
You can see the edges for each type here:
http://jd.cang.com/244688.html
Thanks a lot to Dragondollar for the helpful information, but I can't read Chinese language.

It is apparent to me from the link that there are 7 coins numbered 0484 to 0490 with 7 different edges. Are they all good? If not, which ones are good and which ones are fake?

Best regards,

Happycoins

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2013, 07:08:27 AM »
The 7 coins are genuine.

Offline happycoins II

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Re: Yuan Shih-kai dollar 1919 - three brothers.
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2013, 11:28:07 AM »
Ok, now I got it. I like this topic and the helpful discussions from you guys indeed. :thumbup:

All the best,

Happycoins II