Author Topic: This is very strange ???  (Read 35142 times)

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Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2013, 03:13:44 PM »
hits right at the heart of the matter ,if I was NGC or even just as a lowly NGC customer who has spent considerable dollars and put a great deal of faith in NGC to fairly and accurately essentially determine the value of a coin (grading)  in an unbiased professional manner with a high degree of accuracy then they need to vigorously  police there reputation for their sake and their customer,s well being also.


Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #91 on: June 23, 2013, 03:15:19 PM »
Of course not everyone should become tech detective in order to safely buy on ebay or have anti-shilling procedures in place to foil shill bidding. If the seller is too busy to take pictures of every coin they should watermark the words "stock photo" on every pictures and include text in the description that pictured coin is similar in quality to the coin you will receive.  If they don't want their coins to sell to cheap use reserves, high starting prices or buy it now.
Arif

Nice ! Well said Arif ...

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #92 on: June 23, 2013, 03:28:01 PM »
 
I do have an issue with modern coin mart using stock photos or photoshopping.  Their listing specifically says the coin pictured is the coin you will receive.  This isn't junk silver or gold they are selling.  I assume they are making enough money to employ some cheap labor to take pictures and input the actual photos of the coins.
Another … 

Yea so that is the main issue here … Large dealers use “stock” photos for speed and efficiency.

When we look at “photoshopping” of coin images, this takes much longer than using a stock photo, this technique is not done for speed or efficiency, its primary reason is to make a specific coin more marketable, plain and simple.   

Both of these techniques are against Ebay policy and should not be allowed.       

Offline poconopenn

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #93 on: June 23, 2013, 04:46:17 PM »
The buyer (bigvivian1111) of 1984 1 oz gold panda had left a negative feedback (Seller deceptively shaded photo of the coin to hide a black stain on the coin) on 5/6/13.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=mcm&iid=130886997856&de=off&items=25&which=negative&interval=365&_trkparms=negative_365

IMO, the questionable item is related to three-picture listing, as mentioned by birdman (1982 1 oz gold panda genuine 3695648-001). The picture of different NGC slabbed 1982 coin was used and label was photoshopped. The 1990 1/20 oz gold panda mentioned in this thread was not the same; the wrong coin was photoshpped, not the label. IMO, these two examples as well as shill bidding are enough to ask eBay to take action to suspend this seller and to stop this type of deceptive acts.

Reported.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #94 on: June 23, 2013, 04:53:46 PM »
Comeaux,

After reading the Florida law, it would seem that resealing coins to look like OMP would also fall under the definition of a violation.
In my opinion, a Photoshopped image is just a modern-day, software enabled cousin to a resealed coin.

-David

“Buy the coin, not the holder, package or COA.”

They may be cousin, but have different personality.

Resealed package: The coin pictured is the coin you will receive.

Photoshopped NGC encapsulated coin: The coin pictured is NOT the coin you will receive.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #95 on: June 23, 2013, 07:12:05 PM »
Quote from: poconopenn
Resealed package: The coin pictured is the coin you will receive.

Hello poconopenn I think I may only disagree with you only 1 in every 10,000 comments and this is one of those times .

The majority of reputable dealers (excluding MCM), certainly those I have purchased from here on CCF and Ebay as well can always provide the exact NGC cert number of the coin that I am purchasing so that I can see pictures of that coin on NGC website or pictures directly from seller.   

With OMP a person can never really be sure that the OMP coin they have received is exactly the coin that they saw a picture of because OMP is really just a cheap plastic with no traceability numbers on the plastic. It is quite possible that an OMP coin a person purchased may have already been graded, received bad grade so the seller can break coin out of holder and reseal it. I’m not saying this is the case but it’s a possibility. The main thing is you just don’t know any more with all of the counterfeiting and resealing that is going on.     

Offline poconopenn

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2013, 11:16:47 PM »
Hello poconopenn I think I may only disagree with you only 1 in every 10,000 comments and this is one of those times .

The majority of reputable dealers (excluding MCM), certainly those I have purchased from here on CCF and Ebay as well can always provide the exact NGC cert number of the coin that I am purchasing so that I can see pictures of that coin on NGC website or pictures directly from seller.   

With OMP a person can never really be sure that the OMP coin they have received is exactly the coin that they saw a picture of because OMP is really just a cheap plastic with no traceability numbers on the plastic. It is quite possible that an OMP coin a person purchased may have already been graded, received bad grade so the seller can break coin out of holder and reseal it. I’m not saying this is the case but it’s a possibility. The main thing is you just don’t know any more with all of the counterfeiting and resealing that is going on.     


You may misunderstand my posting. Actually, we are in totally agreement. Similar to many of my postings, I wrote “Buy the coin, not the holder, package or COA” at the beginning of this posting. Most knowledgeable collectors in this forum can determine the condition of the coin, as long as the picture is clear and shows the details of the coin. The coin may be in an inferior condition in a resealed package as you suggested, but market will decide the final value of the coin. Most likely, the winner will receive the coin in the picture. However, in the case of photoshopped NGC encapsulated coin, the picture will be clear and detailed, but the coin received is definitely not the same coin in the picture.

As stated in eBay selling policy for coin, the pictures have to show the exact coin received later. The selling of a resealed coin does not violate eBay policy if the picture is clear and the coin is genuine, but selling a graded coin using a photoshopped image is definitely in violating eBay policy.

Offline mazinger7000

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2013, 11:25:30 PM »
the MCM auction for the 1998 gold panda 1 oz coin was won by a guy who has bid on 49 items in the last month and guess what? 100% of them were MCM auctions. guess we'll see that coin for sale again soon.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2013, 11:25:41 PM »
Yes you are correct poconopenn ... I did misunderstand your post but now that I read again I'm in complete agreement

Offline GDG's

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #99 on: June 24, 2013, 06:46:38 AM »
the MCM auction for the 1998 gold panda 1 oz coin was won by a guy who has bid on 49 items in the last month and guess what? 100% of them were MCM auctions. guess we'll see that coin for sale again soon.


MCM auction

The 94 1/4 bi-metallic unicorn was "sold".

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130919120547?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

"winner" h***8( 3 )

30-Day Summary
Total bids:   12
Items bid on:   8
Bid activity (%) with this seller:   75%   
Bid retractions:   2
Bid retractions (6 months):   5

As I said in another post this is a nice coin to own. In fact I do own one in 69. Sure I would have love to seen this go for a huge sum, but I'd hate to see anyone bid against shills. Of course no one can be 100% sure that is the case but the preponderance of evidence is quite strong.




Offline lunar

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #100 on: June 24, 2013, 08:44:54 AM »
This is very strange .
As a big company such as MCM , they rather spend money and the effort to photo-shop the coins and not spending the same money and time to take a photograph of the actual thing.
Interesting company...

Offline panda88

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #101 on: June 24, 2013, 11:30:45 AM »
No one interesting in MCM auction?
The 1987Y  100 yuan was sold $997.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140988411201&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:US:3160

Offline Max Spiegel

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #102 on: June 24, 2013, 12:15:30 PM »
Peter Anthony brought this thread to my attention and I wanted to offer some clarification. NGC does not consider this type of photoshopped or edited image to be acceptable, and we will inform Modern Coin Mart of this. I do not believe that our customer service representative fully understood what had been done, and we will make sure that issues like this are appropriately addressed by our staff in the future.

Many internet sellers use stock photos and in some limited situations it might be necessary to edit a photo of an NGC holder, such as when a new release is being pre-sold. Under no circumstances should this image misrepresent or mislead. Clearly, we need to have a policy in place that defines when a stock photo or edited photo is acceptable, and I welcome all feedback. Anyone is welcome to email me directly at max@ngccoin.com.

I would also like to address the questions about special treatment. No dealer, including Modern Coin Mart, receives preferential grades from NGC. Our graders never know the identify of a submitter. Modern Coin Mart is located near NGC because it allows them to drop off and pick up coins, which reduces the shipping time and expense. In fact, many dealers have relocated to Sarasota because their proximity to NGC results in faster shipping times. (Just type in "Sarasota" into the Dealer Locator on the NGC website to see how many other member dealers are in the area.)

If anyone has any additional questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me.

Regards,
Max Spiegel

 

Max Spiegel
Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC)

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #103 on: June 24, 2013, 12:37:45 PM »
Max,
First: Welcome to the forum.
Second: Thank you for taking the time to address this issue and for soliciting solutions from the community to prevent further problems like this. It is great to see NGC taking action.
As an NGC member, I greatly appreciate the response.
+1

PH

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #104 on: June 24, 2013, 02:02:35 PM »
Hello Max,

I would like to reiterate the message from panda halves as well. I greatly appreciate that you have come to this forum to address the concerns discussed here. 

Also some of the comments made by me in this thread regarding a “perceived” association between NGC and MCM are possibly disproportionate to the reality of relationship.

Since I have always been a very loyal supporter of NGC as well as the Certified Collectibles Group, I was just really disappointed with the initial NGC response. My first thoughts on the initial NGC response influenced me to make some disparaging comments and I apologize for that.

I can say that I have always gotten great service from NGC, NCS, CGC and more recently PMG. In the past you have been extremely beneficial with Modern Chinese Coin variety recognition and personally very helpful to me.

Thanks for looking into the issues with MCM because as I previously stated in this thread … I don’t think it is something positive for NGC as NGC would/should not want to approve of another company modifying “Certified NGC Coins” for the benefit of making them more marketable and at the same time tarnishing the reputation of NGC or The Certified Collectibles Group.

Take Care !

comeaux