Author Topic: This is very strange ???  (Read 40154 times)

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Offline Yandy1990

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2013, 07:20:17 PM »
Hi Jc888 ... yes a reholdered coin does come back with same cert number

Thanks for pointing that out.

Wouldn't NGC takes picture before they send the graded coins back. If that is true, the fact that the image in NGC database is different than that being auctioned can only indicate 1) MCM changed the holder; or 2) NGC reholdered it but did not update its database.

Offline Yandy1990

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2013, 07:24:00 PM »

So the primary reason for my posting the NGC communication is not that I was threatened with my NGC membership, it’s that actions of a much more serious and nefarious behavior by MCM were simply ignored lackadaisically by NGC.


It's very clear to me that Comeaux was complaining about being traded harshly, instad, he's talking about more serious problem here.

In fact, if NGC were to apologize to Comeaux for being too harsh, and were to tell us that their response to MCM's issue is a norm, THIS IS MUCH WORSE! As a collector, I'd rather NGC has a higher standard (or shall I say has a standard).

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2013, 08:47:34 PM »
Speaking as a Forum member and not on behalf of anyone else there are a couple of things here that I think we should be clear on. One is that as I understand the law anybody can alter, or Photoshop, an image of their own coins and nobody else can do much about it. Altering an image is not against the law, per se. The question is what is that image used for? If someone buys something based on an altered image then they may well have grounds to claim they were defrauded. So far there is only speculation and no evidence that has occurred. AFAIK no one has claimed they received a different coin from MCM than the one they paid for. So what statement are we looking for and from who? I'm sure that NGC can provide clarity on its own policies but I've never seen any company issue a statement about what another company does.

Second, no one here knows if NGC and MCM have ever discussed, or ever will discuss, the issues raised in this topic. If they ever do I imagine that what is said would be private as is normal in business negotiations. But if the issue is Photoshopped images used on *Bay that is between the party doing the listing and *Bay. NGC would not be part of that conversation and I can't imagine why they would make any sort of public statement about it.

The main problem here as I see it is that many people feel that *Bay doesn't respond adequately to complaints about shill bidding and other problems in their auctions. Nonetheless it is *Bay that has the rules about Photoshopped or stock images and shill bidding on its site. It is the one that needs to take action, not make statements. MCM issues are MCM issues and they should address those if they care to.

Anyway, I am checking out of this conversation as I have a Pricepedia to finish and send out. There's a lot going on behind the scenes in the Chinese coin world to report on. Best wishes to everyone here and thanks for hearing me out.

Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline exchange

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2013, 10:14:13 PM »
I don't know much about either NGC or MCM. Never ever dealt with them and never contacted them.

One major reason why I chose OMP and will always choose OMP over grading is what I wrote almost two years ago.
Yes, as Comeau said, the differences belong on another thread and with the OMP reseal shenanigans, you need to be extra careful and extra homework is required and it is by no means any safer, but I will always know that if I get the OMP right, the battle is pretty much won and that is all I needed to worry about.

The below were my concerns two years ago.

Badon: "Do you realize that your coin is in direct contact with PVC, also known as polyvinylCHLORIDE. That last part is the chlorine. It will eventually ruin your coins. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of its life. NCS might be able to help at first, but eventually the coin will seem to have a permanent stain, even after conservation"

exchange: "Maybe so, but I rather that then getting back another coin from our trusted friends at the grading facility".


"I'm not betting on plastic, I'm betting on the tarnished reputation of the grading companies down the road.
All sectors of the collectible world have had their own experts, experts that swore items they signed and touched were genuine to only be proven wrong because of greed. This will be no different. These coins are dipped in solutions and who knows what else is done to them before they are slabbed. No thanks, I'll take my chances the honest way.
The thing is as long as the game works everybody is happy. As long as everyone is making money of each other based on a third party, everyone is happy. Every grading company swears they are doing the right thing, I hope they are but history has shown us otherwise".

Interesting old thread for those who have recently joined.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3634.msg17287#msg17287



exchange

Offline Dragon88

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2013, 11:24:27 PM »

One major reason why I chose OMP and will always choose OMP over grading is what I wrote almost two years ago.
but I will always know that if I get the OMP right, the battle is pretty much won and that is all I needed to worry about.

exchange

What took you so long? Was waiting for your wise words :)

Offline davidt3251

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2013, 11:33:18 PM »
I have been looking at my MCM coins. Will all MCM coins now be discounted by (a) a risk factor related to authenticity and (b) the cost of relabeling the coin in a non-MCM label to attempt to remove the discount (although realizing with modern databases the NGC# may now be permanently tainted)?

Offline davidt3251

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2013, 11:39:12 PM »
I don't know much about either NGC or MCM. Never ever dealt with them and never contacted them.

One major reason why I chose OMP and will always choose OMP over grading is what I wrote almost two years ago.
Yes, as Comeau said, the differences belong on another thread and with the OMP reseal shenanigans, you need to be extra careful and extra homework is required and it is by no means any safer, but I will always know that if I get the OMP right, the battle is pretty much won and that is all I needed to worry about.

The below were my concerns two years ago.

Badon: "Do you realize that your coin is in direct contact with PVC, also known as polyvinylCHLORIDE. That last part is the chlorine. It will eventually ruin your coins. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of its life. NCS might be able to help at first, but eventually the coin will seem to have a permanent stain, even after conservation"

exchange: "Maybe so, but I rather that then getting back another coin from our trusted friends at the grading facility".


"I'm not betting on plastic, I'm betting on the tarnished reputation of the grading companies down the road.
All sectors of the collectible world have had their own experts, experts that swore items they signed and touched were genuine to only be proven wrong because of greed. This will be no different. These coins are dipped in solutions and who knows what else is done to them before they are slabbed. No thanks, I'll take my chances the honest way.
The thing is as long as the game works everybody is happy. As long as everyone is making money of each other based on a third party, everyone is happy. Every grading company swears they are doing the right thing, I hope they are but history has shown us otherwise".

Interesting old thread for those who have recently joined.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3634.msg17287#msg17287



exchange

Exchange,

My dragon boat coin has a 10 Yuan mint mark, like this one Xuhong is selling:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2002-1oz-dragon-boat-festival-silver-coin-with-COA-original-box-/370839388089?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item5657bfffb9




But yours is missing the 10 Yuan mintmark.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1115.msg34315#msg34315

Your coin without the 10 Yuan mintmark (even if it is OMP) kind of concerns me.

-D

Offline Dragon88

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2013, 11:43:00 PM »
Exchange,

My dragon boat coin has a 10 Yuan mint mark, like this one Xuhong is selling:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2002-1oz-dragon-boat-festival-silver-coin-with-COA-original-box-/370839388089?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item5657bfffb9




But yours is missing the 10 Yuan mintmark.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1115.msg34315#msg34315

Your coin without the 10 Yuan mintmark (even if it is OMP) kind of concerns me.

-D

But the 10 Yuan mintmark can be clearly seen in Exchange's picture?!?!

Offline exchange

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2013, 11:49:15 PM »
Exchange,

My dragon boat coin has a 10 Yuan mint mark, like this one Xuhong is selling:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2002-1oz-dragon-boat-festival-silver-coin-with-COA-original-box-/370839388089?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item5657bfffb9




But yours is missing the 10 Yuan mintmark.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1115.msg34315#msg34315

Your coin without the 10 Yuan mintmark (even if it is OMP) kind of concerns me.

-D

Thank you for the heads up. It's just a bad picture. Below is a better picture.

exchange

Offline davidt3251

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2013, 11:54:32 PM »
Exchange,
I understand your point about OMP, and I have some coins in OMP, but your first picture underscores the importance of grading companies to some collectors. That image dragon_front.jpg it looks like it has no 10 yuan mintmark. When you go to sell that coin, with that image, you might not realize full value. In an NGC or PCGS holder, I would argue realized value would be higher, and the coin would be more liquid overall.
Maybe its the angle, but it actually looks like a fake, which is another point. In OMP, the collector has to photograph their own coin, and possibly an inferior photo makes a good coin look bad.
So I think grading companies will always have some sort of role.
-D

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2013, 12:02:26 AM »
Are we looking at different picture?


Offline exchange

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2013, 12:06:33 AM »
Exchange,
I understand your point about OMP, and I have some coins in OMP, but your first picture underscores the importance of grading companies to some collectors. That image dragon_front.jpg it looks like it has no 10 yuan mintmark. When you go to sell that coin, with that image, you might not realize full value. In an NGC or PCGS holder, I would argue realized value would be higher, and the coin would be more liquid overall.
Maybe its the angle, but it actually looks like a fake, which is another point. In OMP, the collector has to photograph their own coin, and possibly an inferior photo makes a good coin look bad.
So I think grading companies will always have some sort of role.
-D

I completely agree. Taking good quality pictures is key, however this picture I quickly took with a cell phone for a quick upload. Yes, the collector does indeed have to photograph their own coins and that is the way I prefer it. Each collector should take the time and effort to study their coins they buy and put that same effort when selling. Something we can't say about several numismatic professionals....

exchange

Offline exchange

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2013, 12:08:50 AM »
Better picture, again taken with a cell phone as I have no need to sell.... yet  :001_smile:

exchange

Offline Dragon88

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2013, 12:35:20 AM »
Exchange,
I understand your point about OMP, and I have some coins in OMP, but your first picture underscores the importance of grading companies to some collectors. That image dragon_front.jpg it looks like it has no 10 yuan mintmark. When you go to sell that coin, with that image, you might not realize full value. In an NGC or PCGS holder, I would argue realized value would be higher, and the coin would be more liquid overall.
Maybe its the angle, but it actually looks like a fake, which is another point. In OMP, the collector has to photograph their own coin, and possibly an inferior photo makes a good coin look bad.
So I think grading companies will always have some sort of role.
-D

I beg to differ. It took me less than 2 seconds to see the 10 yuan mint mark. Also, as Exchange quite rightly pointed out he wasn't looking to sell the coin, so its just a picture taken via a mobile phone to share with forum members here. No need to use a camera to take a high resolution picture. In any case, if a seller wanted to sell a coin and the picture looks blured, 99% of the time the buyer will ask for a better resolution picture or clarify with the seller. No genuine buyer will immediately say the coin is fake and walk away.

As to your assertion that the coin looks fake, I hope you were joking.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2013, 12:41:45 AM »
I think there is an OMP vs. Grading thread somewhere in the forum so I don’t want to get on that topic here in this thread but as David has stated and also many other highly recognized/experienced collectors with high value MCC such as Arif and the late Nick Brown, grading does have its values. Especially for higher value coins, maybe not so much for cheap less desirable coins.

It’s been substantiated on many occasions that the majority of graded coins next to their counterpart in OMP do sell for higher in auction. Look at Xu Hong ebay site now compared to a year ago … infinitely more graded coins now.    

The main issue I have had throughout this thread is the position that NGC initially has taken in its response to birdman regarding the MCM coin and the fact that MCM is being deceptive.  

I will reiterate what I said earlier … in my opinion, OMP is even less reliable today than ever before as ANYONE with a cheap heat sealer can put whatever they want in plastic. I personally do not buy OMP any longer.

For those interested … here may be a thread of interest about rewrapped/resealed OMP coins:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=886.0

To get back on topic about the MCM coin … here is Florida’s law regarding Consumer Protection in which I believe MCM is treading on shaky ground regarding “unfair or deceptive acts or practices” in section 501.204 “Unlawful acts and practices”

REGULATION OF TRADE, COMMERCE, INVESTMENTS, AND SOLICITATIONS
CONSUMER PROTECTION

501.203
(8) “Trade or commerce” means the advertising, soliciting, providing, offering, or distributing, whether by sale, rental, or otherwise, of any good or service, or any property, whether tangible or intangible, or any other article, commodity, or thing of value, wherever situated. “Trade or commerce” shall include the conduct of any trade or commerce, however denominated, including any nonprofit or not-for-profit person or activity.

501.204 Unlawful acts and practices
(1) Unfair methods of competition, unconscionable acts or practices, and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in the conduct of any trade or commerce are hereby declared unlawful.

501.2075 Civil penalty.—Except as provided in s. 501.2077, any person, firm, corporation, association, or entity, or any agent or employee of the foregoing, who is willfully using, or has willfully used, a method, act, or practice declared unlawful under s. 501.204, or who is willfully violating any of the rules of the department adopted under this part, is liable for a civil penalty of not more than $10,000 for each such violation. Willful violations occur when the person knew or should have known that his or her conduct was unfair or deceptive or prohibited by rule.