Author Topic: This is very strange ???  (Read 40156 times)

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Offline BChung

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2013, 09:49:26 AM »
At some point of time, small collectors are going to lose confidence with NGC and the intergrity of its grading service and the alleged preferential treatment given to MCM in grading.

I already am..... First PCGS grades fake coins, now NGC having a crony relationship a sizable dealer....

Confidence in grading????

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2013, 09:54:22 AM »
Vote your displeasure with your wallet IMHO ,let the alleged bid re tractors and shills have those auctions all to themselves:)

Offline Yandy1990

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2013, 12:55:45 PM »
Peter,

We are not talking about exclusive label here. We are talking a coin with exclusive label being sold on eBay but with an image that is not in "exclusive label" in NGC's database. Is it re-labeled?

If someone translate and post the threat to some Chinese forum, NGC's reputation will be in serious trouble. I can see that Chinese collectors may go back to favor OMPs.

Andy

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2013, 01:23:45 PM »
Peter,

We are not talking about exclusive label here. We are talking a coin with exclusive label being sold on eBay but with an image that is not in "exclusive label" in NGC's database. Is it re-labeled?

If someone translate and post the threat to some Chinese forum, NGC's reputation will be in serious trouble. I can see that Chinese collectors may go back to favor OMPs.

Andy

Anyone can get a coin re-labeled. Just send it in (NGC or PCGS) and pay the fee to have it re-holdered. A new label should be included. Someone with a scratched holder might use that service, or an old one. I don't think it can be done with 70 coins, however. I'm not saying that is what happened here but it easily could have.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline wg

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Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2013, 02:01:06 PM »
  :001_tongue:

btw.

anyone can do what they like to do

for ex ... he likes shanghai omp

http://www.ebay.de/itm/CHINA-1-oz-Chinesische-Bronze-Funde-2013-Silber-2-Ausgabe-/171063143907?pt=M%C3%BCnzen_Medaillen&hash=item27d4286de3

Good point wg ... OMP is even less reliable than graded. Anyone with a cheap heat sealer can put whatever they want into "OMP"

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2013, 02:03:21 PM »
Hi Peter,
First off I want to say that I’m sure you are aware that I have tremendous respect for you and great appreciation for the work you have done. The articles you write and the Panda Book have been very beneficial to stimulate interest for Chinese Panda’s around the world. I say all of this because I want you to know this before I say that I disagree with your responses in this thread.

I understand that you are a consultant for NGC and in no way did I even expect you even make a comment to these MCM/NGC shenanigans as I would not want you to jeopardize your position with NGC and this MCM chicanery and NGC’s position regarding it goes way above your head. I would honestly be interested to know what the “top brass” at NGC think but then again … the NGC response to Birdman pretty much sums up the NGC position which is absolutely abhorrent.

Quote from: PandaCollector
I think the issues of mislabeled coins and Photoshop fantasy slabs are two separate concerns that shouldn’t be combined into one single discussion
In your response here, I think that you may have misinterpreted my reasoning in posting the communication between I and NGC, the point I was making had nothing to do with my mislabeled coin but rather the harsh position NGC had taken against me for such a minor issue compared their lackadaisical response to the MCM “doctored” coin/holder. I posted the NGC email just so others could see what was told to me but I did block the name of the NGC representative as he has always been very helpful, I have a lot of respect for him and he was just basically doing what he was told to do. 

On a side note just to make it very clear … the mislabeled gold coin I was selling for $400 was only one of two 70 grade coins of that type in the NGC census and the only other was being listed on Ebay for $950 by another seller so I was clearly not trying to profit from the mislabeled coin, I even sold it for the same price once the label was corrected. My listing also made no insinuations that this coin was of any higher value for the mislabeled coin, I simply stated that this coin is an “MS” coin and not a “PF” coin as indicated on the NGC holder.

So the primary reason for my posting the NGC communication is not that I was threatened with my NGC membership, it’s that actions of a much more serious and nefarious behavior by MCM were simply ignored lackadaisically by NGC.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2013, 02:13:56 PM »
Advice :If you have any dispute with MCM do not open a case against them in Ebay because there was no such record of your disputes recorded in Paypal. Your disputes will be handle by Ebay staffs and you will not get a fair judgement from them.

I suggest to you to open a dispute case in PAYPAL directly eventhough you bought the items listed in MCM Ebay store. In this case you will get a fairer judgements from Paypal staffs.

Heed my advice seriously.

Ebay owns Paypal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2013, 02:26:34 PM »
a coin can certainly be reholdered but correct me if I am wrong I never have seen 1 come back with the same cert#??? please jump in and correct me if i am wrong

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2013, 02:31:05 PM »
a coin can certainly be reholdered but correct me if I am wrong I never have seen 1 come back with the same cert#??? please jump in and correct me if i am wrong
Hi Jc888 ... yes a reholdered coin does come back with same cert number

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2013, 02:32:29 PM »
To get back to the most important issue at hand here is the fact that MCM manipulated an NGC holder for a 1990 G5Y Gold Panda in order to either do one of the following:

1. Remove the original coin along with the internal white gasket and replaced it with another gasket and coin but failed to realize it was not the correct year/size/denomination coin for the intended NGC holder.

2. Utilized Photoshop or some other photo editing software to cut/crop the original image of the 1990 G5Y Gold Panda and replace it with the image of a 2001 G50Y Gold Panda


These two scenarios above are clearly the facts of what occurred and either one of these two situations are definitely what occurred … there is simply no other explanation. If so I would like to hear it.

Another thing to consider is that it’s obviously not the first time MCM has modified an NGC holder, if it would have been the very first time MCM had performed this “trick” then very close scrutiny would have been extended to this operation on its “maiden voyage” to ensure the modified NGC holder would fly under the radar of the most astute collector. MCM has apparently done this “trick” on so many occasions that they got just a little too comfortable performing it so frequently that they inevitably let their little secret accidentally slip out … Now the “cat is out of the bag”

I think now that we can all irrefutably establish the fact that these of these two scenarios listed above did occur … we now must question WHY MCM decided to perform  these reprehensible shenanigans and WHY it is condoned by NGC. Before we look at possible reasons why MCM altered the NGC coin/holder in question, I do think it’s also important to note what has already been mentioned in this thread that the CEO of MCM (John Maben) does previously have eight years at NGC as the NGC Executive Vice President and a Grading Finalizer. Although John’s previous “high level” corporate position at NGC and MCM’s close proximity to NGC (1,500 feet away) may not be the “smoking gun” … I do believe these facts about John/MCM along with “doctored coin/holder” debacle coupled with NGC’s cavalier response to the “doctored coin/holder” lead us all to believe that the preponderance of evidence before us establishes that there is gross misconduct at MCM/NGC/Ebay and that it has been sanctioned at the highest levels within these companies.
 
Some people are delusional who cannot see the relevance of the relationship between John Maben, his 35 MCM “numismatic professionals” (how many are former NGC?), the current “cronyism” between MCM/NGC/ Ebay … all of this suspicion now has merit considering the recent revelation of “Frankencoin” and the lack of admonishment for the trickery and intentions behind it. Remember folks … “Frankencoin” was not a “stock” photo as NGC alleged … it was a “doctored/manipulated” holder/coin which is substantially more conducive to deceptive behavior. In the past I disregarded the history between MCM and NGC as irrelevant but this recent incident and how it is being handled by NGC has modified my perception of NGC.       

So now that we have established without doubt that MCM did in fact execute either one of the two maneuvers listed above (or both) … it is imperative for the welfare of the entire numismatic community that we discover exactly what the reasoning is behind this type of dishonest behavior. Also it is very important that we must all consider the fact that this ominous behavior is occurring with one of the largest (maybe the largest) dealer of NGC graded coins in the USA and possibly the world.

There are several possible reasons that MCM would create “Frankencoin” but a few motives that come to mind are the following:

1. It’s possible that MCM has discovered a technique in which to compromise the NGC holder without detection (John has 8 years of NGC experience) therefore they can remove 69 or 70 grade coins and replace these high grade coins with less desirable coins. Now they have a low quality coin with an instant high grade in an NGC holder. Then MCM can just resubmit the original high grade coins to NGC to get another 69/70 grade and sell the lower grade coins which are now in high grade NGC holders.

2. It’s possible that the NGC graded coin MCM is currently selling may have a high NGC grade but also has imperfections so what MCM may be doing is photoshopping perfect coin images over the image of imperfect coins so that the buyer does not see these defects upon purchase. MCM is banking that when the buyer receives the defective coin that they do not see the imperfection and that it is not the coin that was initially advertised for sale.

After being a longtime loyal NGC supporter … their response to Frankencoin is extremely unsettling and quite frankly very disturbing for me. I have to say that my confidence in NGC at this moment is quite shaken. My testament to being faithful to NGC is evident with my NGC coin collection currently sitting at #27 out of 800 World Coin Sets which does not include several coins that I was planning to send in for NGC grading.  

I’m going to hold off on grading or purchasing any other coins for now. I’m so disgusted that I may even liquidate my entire coin collection as the other collectibles I’m involved in have nowhere near the level of nonsense as numismatics.   

In closing I’ll also add that when it comes to OMP coins, the propensity for trickery is just as probable. We have all seen the resealing of crap coins and counterfeits, it’s actually easier to accomplish with OMP than it is with graded coins. I’ve experienced it myself on a first hand basis. Anyone with a cheap heat sealer can reseal anything they want into “OMP” but this OMP topic I believe is for another thread. At the moment I would like to know what is going on with the MCM/Frankencoin and how can this be condoned by one of the most respected and reputable coin grading companies in the world. 

For now we have three-ring circus going on and the stars of the “show” are MCM, NGC & Ebay. It’s time for someone to “raise the curtain” so we can all see what’s going on behind the scene.       

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2013, 03:16:46 PM »
Hi Peter,
First off I want to say that I’m sure you are aware that I have tremendous respect for you and great appreciation for the work you have done. The articles you write and the Panda Book have been very beneficial to stimulate interest for Chinese Panda’s around the world. I say all of this because I want you to know this before I say that I disagree with your responses in this thread.

I understand that you are a consultant for NGC and in no way did I even expect you even make a comment to these MCM/NGC shenanigans as I would not want you to jeopardize your position with NGC and this MCM chicanery and NGC’s position regarding it goes way above your head. I would honestly be interested to know what the “top brass” at NGC think but then again … the NGC response to Birdman pretty much sums up the NGC position which is absolutely abhorrent.
In your response here, I think that you may have misinterpreted my reasoning in posting the communication between I and NGC, the point I was making had nothing to do with my mislabeled coin but rather the harsh position NGC had taken against me for such a minor issue compared their lackadaisical response to the MCM “doctored” coin/holder. I posted the NGC email just so others could see what was told to me but I did block the name of the NGC representative as he has always been very helpful, I have a lot of respect for him and he was just basically doing what he was told to do.  

On a side note just to make it very clear … the mislabeled gold coin I was selling for $400 was only one of two 70 grade coins of that type in the NGC census and the only other was being listed on Ebay for $950 by another seller so I was clearly not trying to profit from the mislabeled coin, I even sold it for the same price once the label was corrected. My listing also made no insinuations that this coin was of any higher value for the mislabeled coin, I simply stated that this coin is an “MS” coin and not a “PF” coin as indicated on the NGC holder.

So the primary reason for my posting the NGC communication is not that I was threatened with my NGC membership, it’s that actions of a much more serious and nefarious behavior by MCM were simply ignored lackadaisically by NGC.


Comeaux,

I asked my main contact at NGC about the message you received. I was told that whoever wrote you that message could have phrased it better, or maybe given more thought to the message itself. My contact thought it was harsh, too.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2013, 04:15:18 PM »
I hope it will be helpful for me to make a general statement about grading companies here. Over the last two years I have worked as a consultant (not employee) for both NGC and PCGS. I’ve gotten to know many people at both companies and have made friends in both places.

The two companies are highly competitive and are always trying to get ahead of each other in the market. That’s normal business. Nothing that I have ever encountered at either firm has made me question the integrity of their grading of modern Chinese coins. I’ve been to meetings, talked in private, gone out to dinner with people from both firms and no one has ever said, or hinted at, any favoritism for a particular client.

To support this consider that several graders have gone from NGC to PCGS and vice versa. Others have been fired and bear the companies no love. It’s my belief that if any grader had ever been given instructions to give special consideration to a specific client it would have become public by now.

For myself, neither company would give me a discount, or even faster service because I have a relationship with them. If you bring up the idea that grades are rigged the employees look at you like you have lost your mind.

I have had discussions with dealers and others who believe that bulk submissions get higher grades and maybe that’s true. I also know companies that have submitted huge quantities of coins and gotten lousy grades back. They weren't very happy. The most successful person, or company, I ‘ve seen at getting 70’s back is a member of this Forum and not a big submitter at all. Go figure.

As for myself, I’ve gotten many coins back that I thought were under graded and a couple that graded higher than expected. I have never, NEVER, gotten a 70 back for one of my own coins, so you can see how beneficial my relationship with NGC and PCGS has been in that regard.

What coin dealers do is a whole other topic – like the one being discussed here.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com


Offline mazinger7000

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2013, 05:39:34 PM »
i don't think that comeaux's complaint with NGC is that their email to him was worded harshly. he's bringing to light the apparent hypocrisy of their taking no action whatsoever on the issue of MCM either doctoring a real NGC coin holder, or photoshopping one to appear different than it is. either scenario should clearly be taken much more seriously by NGC. and yet they seem not to care. by the way, neither does ebay, as none of the mcm shill bid auctions have been taken down.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2013, 06:50:11 PM »
I do have to agree with Comeaux " I have to say that my confidence in NGC has been severely shaken" as person who spent in excess of 10k in fees since the beginning of this year with NGC , the term third party independent grading service has at the very least been called into question ,NGC imho has to come out and address this forcefully and MCM has a lot of questions of integrity they need to address ........