Author Topic: This is very strange ???  (Read 40149 times)

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Offline comeaux

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This is very strange ???
« on: June 20, 2013, 12:34:00 AM »
Here is a 1990 G5Y Small Date from the NGC database … cert #3589252-029



Now here is a coin in the link below with the identical cert #3589252-029 but look at the coin in the holder and then look at the label … hmmmm is there some photoshop going on here?  :sneaky2: 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Chinese-1-20-oz-Gold-Panda-Small-Date-5Y-NGC-MS69-Mint-State-69-SKU27619-/141000397400?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item20d4475258

Offline Lightsview

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2013, 12:59:15 AM »
 :thumbup: :thumbup:

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2013, 01:00:13 AM »
Looks like MCM has some more explaining to do   :scared:

Offline Hippanda

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2013, 02:05:52 AM »
Indeed.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline GDG's

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2013, 03:23:13 AM »
comeaux
>>>hmmmm is there some photoshop going on here?  <<<

First let me say comeaux Great Pick Up!

The more CMC is looked at the more shenanigans seem to be turning up.

CMC/ebay/NGC ties preclude any of them from looking into this matter.

Florida's Office of the Attorney General is the one to look into CMC's practices.

This would fall under Florida's Deceptive and Unfair Trade Practices Act(see link)

http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/Main/7003247af328dc9e85256cc6006fba91

Perhaps it is time we protect ourselves from sellers such as CMC?

Offline Birdman

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2013, 08:08:42 AM »
Here is a 1990 G5Y Small Date from the NGC database … cert #3589252-029



Now here is a coin in the link below with the identical cert #3589252-029 but look at the coin in the holder and then look at the label … hmmmm is there some photoshop going on here?  :sneaky2:  

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Chinese-1-20-oz-Gold-Panda-Small-Date-5Y-NGC-MS69-Mint-State-69-SKU27619-/141000397400?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item20d4475258


Oh, dear.   :ohmy:

I saw this listing yesterday, but I assumed that NGC just made a typographical error on the label and put a 1990 label with a 2001 coin.  The fact that there is a photo on file at NGC with the correct 1990 coin in that 1990 labeled holder makes it more troubling.  From my point of view, it better be a photoshop marketing mix-up at MCM (but what is an honest reason to photoshop a label in this way, instead of just using the photo of the whole slab?), because the only other apparent explanation, that they are opening up holders and switching around coins after they come back from NGC  :confused1:, is deeply troubling  N12.  

MCM, please respond with a plausible explanation for this situation promptly; and while you are at it, please respond to the repeated use of stock photos for certified coins against eBay policy, and the high prevalence of suspicious bidders  (high rate of bid retractions and high rate of bidding only on MCM auctions) on your auctions.  

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8986.msg52528#msg52528

With each passing day and new discovery, I am having more trouble giving you the benefit of the doubt.

If rules or laws have indeed been broken, there should be negative consequences to deter similar behavior in the future.
---
Update, I took a screen shot of the photo of the slab in question that MCM is using for this eBay listing, because surely that listing and photo will be removed any minute now.  I thought about posting the troubling photo here as a record, but I decided not to because MCM has clearly marked the photo as "Image Copyright of Modern Coin Mart," and I don't want to get the forum in legal trouble.  If someone knows copyright law better than I do and thinks that it would be permissible to use that image in this situation, it would be useful to have the photo posted as part of the permanent record.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 08:42:17 AM by Birdman »

Offline Honus

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2013, 09:48:45 AM »
Wow, nice catch Comeaux!

This is really weird, and as others have pointed out it casts further doubt on the eBay operations over at MCM.   I haven't bid on one of their auctions in...I can't even remember how long, and it's all because of the funky bidding.   

To Birdman, regarding posting of their photograph, I am not an attorney and I certainly can't speak for the forum...but I would venture to guess that MCM is not going through the registration process (with the Copyright office) for every one of their eBay photos, and this website (as far I know) does not generate revenues from advertising so could not be considered a for-profit venture hence there are no direct "damages" via diversion of revenues from posting the photo here...not to mention that the photo may be evidence of deceptive marketing practices...by my own legal compass, posting that photo here is sorta like...stealing a blade of grass from your neighbor's yard if you suspect he's using an illegal pesticide :-)       I think there's great value in posting it here, value to the "public good".   But then I watch too much Law & Order and I occasionally exceed the speed limit too, so you're a good egg for not posting it. 
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline Birdman

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2013, 10:10:35 AM »
I just reported this listing and slab issue to both NGC and to eBay for their investigation.

Offline Lightsview

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2013, 10:21:46 AM »
Just received email from ebay on bid cancellation notice.

Anyway I've also taken a screen shot of the listing. Never know when it might proof to be useful in future.

Offline wg

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2013, 10:26:00 AM »
 N39


Ended:
Jun 20, 2013 07:04:31 PDT

Offline Honus

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2013, 10:27:35 AM »
When Comeaux and Birdman walk in a room, that whistling refrain from "The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly" should play in the background  :biggrin:
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2013, 11:27:23 AM »
Last night I saved the original Ebay MCM webpage on this listing for posterity.

Guys … this is very serious.

This MCM chicanery could involve Federal violations including (but not limited to) mail fraud and RICO violations. GDG is right … this fraudulent practice is something that the Attorney General needs to look into.   

There is DEFINITELY something nefarious going on here. Without question or doubt the 2001 panda coin in the MCM listing was photoshopped into the NGC 1990 holder, there is simply no other explanation.

Now the real question is how often is this MCM photoshopping being done and for what reasons is this being done?

The only reason that it was caught this time is that the buffoon doing the photo editing forgot what holder/coin he was manipulating. This is obviously a common practice …

I remember about a year ago I had a coin selling on ebay that was mislabeled by NGC, even though my ebay listing specifically stated that the coin was mislabeled as a “PF” and that is was actually an “MS” … I was contacted by NGC and told if I did not remove the coin that I could lose my NGC membership. Of course I removed the coin and had it re-holdered but the point is … how will NGC view this MCM listed coin? This is a direct and intentional alteration of an NGC graded coin by a company operating right here in the USA. This is no different than counterfeiting. The action from NGC should be swift and just … there is NO EXCUSE to allow this deception to occur even one time.

This altered coin listing is shameful on so many levels for Ebay, MCM and even to a degree NGC (I’m a very strong supporter of NGC) if they do not take action.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2013, 11:31:53 AM »

Offline Birdman

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 12:13:36 PM »
I just reported this listing and slab issue to both NGC and to eBay for their investigation.

… how will NGC view this MCM listed coin?

NGC responded to my note by saying,

 "Thank you for your email.  This is a photo shopped image that they are using to sell these coins.  If you were to purchase a coin, it would have a different certification number that would match the label..  Dealers will do this when they have a large quantity to sell."

So they don't seem to be worried about it.

I guess I still don't understand how taking a photo of a label on a slab, and then using photoshop to cut it out and paste that label on a different slab, is easier than simply taking a photo of the slabbed coin you want to sell?  Is making such composite photos of different slabs, labels, & coins consistent with eBay policies?  I just want transparency, so I don't feel like I always need to be looking over my shoulder for some scam.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2013, 12:20:09 PM »
Great catch, comeaux.  
+1

My brother is a copyright attorney and I've talked to him specifically about posting copyrighted material on CCF.  He felt we are on safe ground if the materials were used to support specific discussion directly connect to the information in question on a non-profit forum.  This falls well within the "fair use" clause of the copyright law.