Author Topic: This is very strange ???  (Read 35667 times)

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Offline comeaux

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This is very strange ???
« on: June 20, 2013, 12:34:00 AM »
Here is a 1990 G5Y Small Date from the NGC database … cert #3589252-029



Now here is a coin in the link below with the identical cert #3589252-029 but look at the coin in the holder and then look at the label … hmmmm is there some photoshop going on here?  :sneaky2: 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Chinese-1-20-oz-Gold-Panda-Small-Date-5Y-NGC-MS69-Mint-State-69-SKU27619-/141000397400?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item20d4475258

Offline Lightsview

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2013, 12:59:15 AM »
 :thumbup: :thumbup:

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2013, 01:00:13 AM »
Looks like MCM has some more explaining to do   :scared:

Offline Hippanda

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2013, 02:05:52 AM »
Indeed.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline GDG's

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2013, 03:23:13 AM »
comeaux
>>>hmmmm is there some photoshop going on here?  <<<

First let me say comeaux Great Pick Up!

The more CMC is looked at the more shenanigans seem to be turning up.

CMC/ebay/NGC ties preclude any of them from looking into this matter.

Florida's Office of the Attorney General is the one to look into CMC's practices.

This would fall under Florida's Deceptive and Unfair Trade Practices Act(see link)

http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/Main/7003247af328dc9e85256cc6006fba91

Perhaps it is time we protect ourselves from sellers such as CMC?

Offline Birdman

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2013, 08:08:42 AM »
Here is a 1990 G5Y Small Date from the NGC database … cert #3589252-029



Now here is a coin in the link below with the identical cert #3589252-029 but look at the coin in the holder and then look at the label … hmmmm is there some photoshop going on here?  :sneaky2:  

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Chinese-1-20-oz-Gold-Panda-Small-Date-5Y-NGC-MS69-Mint-State-69-SKU27619-/141000397400?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item20d4475258


Oh, dear.   :ohmy:

I saw this listing yesterday, but I assumed that NGC just made a typographical error on the label and put a 1990 label with a 2001 coin.  The fact that there is a photo on file at NGC with the correct 1990 coin in that 1990 labeled holder makes it more troubling.  From my point of view, it better be a photoshop marketing mix-up at MCM (but what is an honest reason to photoshop a label in this way, instead of just using the photo of the whole slab?), because the only other apparent explanation, that they are opening up holders and switching around coins after they come back from NGC  :confused1:, is deeply troubling  N12.  

MCM, please respond with a plausible explanation for this situation promptly; and while you are at it, please respond to the repeated use of stock photos for certified coins against eBay policy, and the high prevalence of suspicious bidders  (high rate of bid retractions and high rate of bidding only on MCM auctions) on your auctions.  

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8986.msg52528#msg52528

With each passing day and new discovery, I am having more trouble giving you the benefit of the doubt.

If rules or laws have indeed been broken, there should be negative consequences to deter similar behavior in the future.
---
Update, I took a screen shot of the photo of the slab in question that MCM is using for this eBay listing, because surely that listing and photo will be removed any minute now.  I thought about posting the troubling photo here as a record, but I decided not to because MCM has clearly marked the photo as "Image Copyright of Modern Coin Mart," and I don't want to get the forum in legal trouble.  If someone knows copyright law better than I do and thinks that it would be permissible to use that image in this situation, it would be useful to have the photo posted as part of the permanent record.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 08:42:17 AM by Birdman »

Offline Honus

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2013, 09:48:45 AM »
Wow, nice catch Comeaux!

This is really weird, and as others have pointed out it casts further doubt on the eBay operations over at MCM.   I haven't bid on one of their auctions in...I can't even remember how long, and it's all because of the funky bidding.   

To Birdman, regarding posting of their photograph, I am not an attorney and I certainly can't speak for the forum...but I would venture to guess that MCM is not going through the registration process (with the Copyright office) for every one of their eBay photos, and this website (as far I know) does not generate revenues from advertising so could not be considered a for-profit venture hence there are no direct "damages" via diversion of revenues from posting the photo here...not to mention that the photo may be evidence of deceptive marketing practices...by my own legal compass, posting that photo here is sorta like...stealing a blade of grass from your neighbor's yard if you suspect he's using an illegal pesticide :-)       I think there's great value in posting it here, value to the "public good".   But then I watch too much Law & Order and I occasionally exceed the speed limit too, so you're a good egg for not posting it. 
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline Birdman

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2013, 10:10:35 AM »
I just reported this listing and slab issue to both NGC and to eBay for their investigation.

Offline Lightsview

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2013, 10:21:46 AM »
Just received email from ebay on bid cancellation notice.

Anyway I've also taken a screen shot of the listing. Never know when it might proof to be useful in future.

Offline wg

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2013, 10:26:00 AM »
 N39


Ended:
Jun 20, 2013 07:04:31 PDT

Offline Honus

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2013, 10:27:35 AM »
When Comeaux and Birdman walk in a room, that whistling refrain from "The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly" should play in the background  :biggrin:
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2013, 11:27:23 AM »
Last night I saved the original Ebay MCM webpage on this listing for posterity.

Guys … this is very serious.

This MCM chicanery could involve Federal violations including (but not limited to) mail fraud and RICO violations. GDG is right … this fraudulent practice is something that the Attorney General needs to look into.   

There is DEFINITELY something nefarious going on here. Without question or doubt the 2001 panda coin in the MCM listing was photoshopped into the NGC 1990 holder, there is simply no other explanation.

Now the real question is how often is this MCM photoshopping being done and for what reasons is this being done?

The only reason that it was caught this time is that the buffoon doing the photo editing forgot what holder/coin he was manipulating. This is obviously a common practice …

I remember about a year ago I had a coin selling on ebay that was mislabeled by NGC, even though my ebay listing specifically stated that the coin was mislabeled as a “PF” and that is was actually an “MS” … I was contacted by NGC and told if I did not remove the coin that I could lose my NGC membership. Of course I removed the coin and had it re-holdered but the point is … how will NGC view this MCM listed coin? This is a direct and intentional alteration of an NGC graded coin by a company operating right here in the USA. This is no different than counterfeiting. The action from NGC should be swift and just … there is NO EXCUSE to allow this deception to occur even one time.

This altered coin listing is shameful on so many levels for Ebay, MCM and even to a degree NGC (I’m a very strong supporter of NGC) if they do not take action.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2013, 11:31:53 AM »

Offline Birdman

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 12:13:36 PM »
I just reported this listing and slab issue to both NGC and to eBay for their investigation.

… how will NGC view this MCM listed coin?

NGC responded to my note by saying,

 "Thank you for your email.  This is a photo shopped image that they are using to sell these coins.  If you were to purchase a coin, it would have a different certification number that would match the label..  Dealers will do this when they have a large quantity to sell."

So they don't seem to be worried about it.

I guess I still don't understand how taking a photo of a label on a slab, and then using photoshop to cut it out and paste that label on a different slab, is easier than simply taking a photo of the slabbed coin you want to sell?  Is making such composite photos of different slabs, labels, & coins consistent with eBay policies?  I just want transparency, so I don't feel like I always need to be looking over my shoulder for some scam.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2013, 12:20:09 PM »
Great catch, comeaux.  
+1

My brother is a copyright attorney and I've talked to him specifically about posting copyrighted material on CCF.  He felt we are on safe ground if the materials were used to support specific discussion directly connect to the information in question on a non-profit forum.  This falls well within the "fair use" clause of the copyright law.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2013, 12:33:47 PM »
Great catch, comeaux. 
+1

My brother is a copyright attorney and I've talked to him specifically about posting copyrighted material on CCF.  He felt we are on safe ground if the materials were used to support specific discussion directly connect to the information in question on a non-profit forum.  This falls well within the "fair use" clause of the copyright law.
Thank you sandac  :thumbup:

Offline Birdman

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2013, 12:40:07 PM »
My brother is a copyright attorney and I've talked to him specifically about posting copyrighted material on CCF.  He felt we are on safe ground if the materials were used to support specific discussion directly connect to the information in question on a non-profit forum.  This falls well within the "fair use" clause of the copyright law.

A photo for the record...

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2013, 12:41:44 PM »
Here below is the correspondence between NGC and me back in April of last year regarding a coin I had listed for sale on Ebay. Please note that my Ebay listing clearly described that the coin was actually an “MS” coin and not a proof “PF” coin as was listed on the NGC holder. Also I was not trying to profit because of the error listing, I had the coin listed at a normal price. After this communication I did in fact send the coin back for proper labeling and the coin did sale.

My point here is that I was not being deceptive at all and had all information listed about this specific coin but yet you can see the tone that NGC had taken against me. It seems that what MCM is doing is infinitely worse yet not even a slap on the wrist ???   

Randy,
I work for NGC and we were contacted about this label error (Ebay Item #XXXXXXXXXXXX) by one of our clients. Our database has been corrected, and I would like to offer you a free mechanical error reholder if you send the coin back to us for correction. We'll also pay for roundtrip shipping. If you have any questions, feel free to email me at XXXXX@ngccoin.com or call XXX-XXX-XXXX.
Thank you,
XXXXXX

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Randy Comeaux <RComeaux@XXXX.com> wrote:
Hi XXXX,
I got this above message from you about the item I have listed on Ebay. I know that it is an NGC label error and have listed it described as so. I will try to sell as is but if it doesn’t sell after listing is final I may send it back in for correction … as always Thanks !   

Hi Randy,
We'd like for you to send it back to us for correction. As the original submitter, you have a duty to inspect the coins to make sure that they are accurately described (please refer to our Guarantee and terms and conditions). Selling the coin into the marketplace, where someone might overpay based on the error, may force us to take action with your account with NGC.
I don't mean to be forceful, but I also don't want someone to overpay for an incorrectly described coin sometime down the road.
XXXX


Offline GDG's

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2013, 12:58:34 PM »
 comeaux +1

For standing up to the "forces of darkness" N26

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2013, 01:04:17 PM »
comeaux +1

For standing up to the "forces of darkness" N26
Thanks GDG !

Maybe I have to be more careful ... I might end up wearing "cement shoes"  :scared:

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2013, 01:06:26 PM »
A photo for the record...

MCM “copyright” privileges regarding this “Frankenstein” coin are about as effective and sensible as a bank robber attempting to “copyright” his plans to rob a bank. It ain’t gonna fly ...    

Don’t even see how MCM would have a leg to stand on about “copyright” infringements … what they are doing is illegal and against Ebay policy and NGC as well. We as consumers have a right to expose fraudulent behavior.  We are not talking here about buying $1 dollar items or junk trinkets … we are discussing deceitful behavior involving items that cost $1,000’s of dollars and a company making millions. Fraudulent behavior involving HIGH VALUE precious metals and numismatics is criminal and should be prosecuted.       

As I’ve said before, I have purchased coins from MCM and I have always gotten good service, in the past I’ve given them as a reference to others looking for coins so these recent issues are not only horrible for MCM reputation but my reputation has been tarnished as well for giving MCM as a reference.

To make matters worse … those guys (Hayden) and others at MCM are monitoring this website and have read this very post yet there is none (and will be none) response to this “Frankenstein” coin or even the shill bidding activity.   

Offline mazinger7000

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2013, 01:39:40 PM »
ebay clearly doesn't care about MCM shill bidding, because multiple MCM listings have been reported to them, and the bid history clearly shows what's going on, yet none of these auctions have been cancelled. i suppose it's no surprise that ebay prefers not to risk upsetting a customer that creates alot of revenue for them. but the hypocrisy of allowing MCM to clearly violate ebay's policies against shill bidding, as well as misleading photos of items, is a bit hard to swallow.

Offline panda88

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2013, 01:47:09 PM »
Here below is the correspondence between NGC and me back in April of last year regarding a coin I had listed for sale on Ebay. Please note that my Ebay listing clearly described that the coin was actually an “MS” coin and not a proof “PF” coin as was listed on the NGC holder. Also I was not trying to profit because of the error listing, I had the coin listed at a normal price. After this communication I did in fact send the coin back for proper labeling and the coin did sale.

My point here is that I was not being deceptive at all and had all information listed about this specific coin but yet you can see the tone that NGC had taken against me. It seems that what MCM is doing is infinitely worse yet not even a slap on the wrist ???   

Randy,
I work for NGC and we were contacted about this label error (Ebay Item #XXXXXXXXXXXX) by one of our clients. Our database has been corrected, and I would like to offer you a free mechanical error reholder if you send the coin back to us for correction. We'll also pay for roundtrip shipping. If you have any questions, feel free to email me at XXXXX@ngccoin.com or call XXX-XXX-XXXX.
Thank you,
XXXXXX

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Randy Comeaux <RComeaux@XXXX.com> wrote:
Hi XXXX,
I got this above message from you about the item I have listed on Ebay. I know that it is an NGC label error and have listed it described as so. I will try to sell as is but if it doesn’t sell after listing is final I may send it back in for correction … as always Thanks !   

Hi Randy,
We'd like for you to send it back to us for correction. As the original submitter, you have a duty to inspect the coins to make sure that they are accurately described (please refer to our Guarantee and terms and conditions). Selling the coin into the marketplace, where someone might overpay based on the error, may force us to take action with your account with NGC.
I don't mean to be forceful, but I also don't want someone to overpay for an incorrectly described coin sometime down the road.
XXXX


Look like this case is same like your. I wonder the seller got the same message from NGC or not?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-GOLD-PANDA-100Y-PROOF-LIKE-1-Oz-CHINA-NGC-GRADING-ERROR-MS69-or-PF69-PR69-/300922184641?pt=US_Bullion_Coins&hash=item46105c23c1

Offline poconopenn

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2013, 03:30:48 PM »
Anybody can make claim of copyright at anytime for "original works, including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works". However. IMO, nobody can claim copyright of picture of NGC encapsulated coin, since NGC posts picture of the said coin in its website for public view.

NGC responded to my note by saying,

 "Thank you for your email.  This is a photo shopped image that they are using to sell these coins.  If you were to purchase a coin, it would have a different certification number that would match the label..  Dealers will do this when they have a large quantity to sell."

So they don't seem to be worried about it.

I guess I still don't understand how taking a photo of a label on a slab, and then using photoshop to cut it out and paste that label on a different slab, is easier than simply taking a photo of the slabbed coin you want to sell?  Is making such composite photos of different slabs, labels, & coins consistent with eBay policies?  I just want transparency, so I don't feel like I always need to be looking over my shoulder for some scam.

Agreed, it takes more time to use photoshop to cut and paste the picture than take the picture directly.

The response from NGC is very strange. It sounds that NGC staff is acted as MCM’s PR person and they work together as a term.

Offline GDG's

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2013, 05:33:59 PM »
Here is MCM auction ending in 3 days

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1991-China-1-20-oz-Gold-Panda-Large-Date-5Y-NGC-MS68-Mint-State-68-SKU28537-/130922187895?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1e7b920c77

Current High Bidder is none other than c***6

30-Day Summary
Total bids:   4381
Items bid on:   1625
Bid activity (%) with this seller:   92%   
Bid retractions:   46
Bid retractions (6 months):   58

Yes that is Correct Bid on 1,625 items

Bid activity with MCM is 92%

and look at those Bid retractions.

Just incredible.

The vast majority of my buys have NOT been thru eBay. They have been thru reputable dealers or collectors I know. I think I'd rather stick to this policy. Even if I think I can get a fair price through MCM I just don't feel right bidding against shill bidders.

panda88,

au3000 is another "weird" case. He's been mentioned here before.

Has anyone on the forum ever bought one of his overpriced coins? I know I haven't. I believe he is from Chicago.
There is an honest and fair seller from Chicago named Namchong Cho. He mainly sells Korean paper and China Modern Coins. He sells on ebay but you will do better dealing direct with him. He is 100% honest and comes up with some nice coins every so often.

Will the recent drop in pm's shake loose any rarer Gold China coins? I'm always looking. The rarer the coin the tighter the collectors fist. I know I won't be selling mine anytime soon no matter the price fluctuations. I'm sure most of us feel that way.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2013, 07:43:43 PM »
Quote from: poconopenn
Agreed, it takes more time to use photoshop to cut and paste the picture than take the picture directly.

I’m with birdman & poconopenn … why the hell would anyone spend the time cutting, resizing, pasting and photoshopping coin images when they can just take a picture in 2 seconds ??? There is more to what’s going on here.

I would like an explanation of what the intentions were when an MCM employee/owner sat down, looked at his computer screen and decided to crop a 2001 gold panda and paste it over the holder of a 1990 gold panda … what the heck is going on with this MCM company ???

Maybe MCM has stock photos of almost every gold panda and anytime they have a coin with a slight blemish or imperfection, they just paste the “perfect” coin over the one with an imperfection?

Or it is possibly even more sinister than this … 

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2013, 08:19:54 PM »

Offline BChung

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2013, 09:18:43 PM »

Maybe MCM has stock photos of almost every gold panda and anytime they have a coin with a slight blemish or imperfection, they just paste the “perfect” coin over the one with an imperfection?



I think you hit the jackpot. As we can see being in a slab is useless to protect in many occasion to protect the coin from developing undesirable spots................ the NGC reply is just out right idiotic, seems like  they share a crony relationship. You know like the Banksters and politicians.

Well honestly thanks for bringing this up and I am bidding on 2 of their items, but will certainly be dropping my bid highest bid price by 30% atleast to buffer against these trade practice.

Offline GDG's

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2013, 09:31:28 PM »
Due to the seemingly "cozy" relationship between MCM and NGC I wonder if their 69 coins are truly 69's?

An NGC Great Wall 69 may be in fact a 68 and a 68 really a 67 or worse. This may be why they need to photoshop their coins on eBay. Since MCM also seems to have a "cozy" relationship with ebay they turn a blind eye toward MCM photoshopping their coins. This may be the pump n dump of the Coin industry.

Offline Straw Man

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2013, 09:32:29 PM »
Proudly Presenting the:
Great Wall: Build-a-slabinator™

Endless possibilities.....

Move circulated pieces as if they were MS69 quality!
Move regular coins by inserting ultra-rare ones.
*just be sure to read the fine print



Offline didochili

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2013, 11:15:57 PM »
good one, well done

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2013, 01:28:06 PM »
Proudly Presenting the:
Great Wall: Build-a-slabinator™

Endless possibilities.....

Move circulated pieces as if they were MS69 quality!
Move regular coins by inserting ultra-rare ones.
*just be sure to read the fine print

haha !!! Good one ... this is what MCM is doing "slabinator" and NGC says "no big deal" hahaha ... what a joke  :thumbup:

You should have put John & Hayden from MCM on the label since they have special privileges at NGC & EBAY   

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2013, 01:30:21 PM »
Quote from: poconopenn
The response from NGC is very strange. It sounds that NGC staff is acted as MCM’s PR person and they work together as a team.

Yes this is EXACTLY what I was thinking as well.

This NGC response is VERY strange and extremely cavalier in my opinion. I guess since MCM and NGC are less than a third of a mile apart, they must have a real “cozy” relationship, probably have a bike path setup and travel back and forth between facilities on golf carts.
 
It is ridiculous for NGC to explain this away as “large dealers sometimes use stock photos” … this is NOT A STOCK PHOTO of an identical coin that MCM is selling, it is a modified/altered image of a certified NGC product that NGC guarantees !!!

I would think that NGC would have looked at this from a whole different angle. NGC already has a lot of issues on their hands with counterfeiters replicating their holders to peddle counterfeit coins. Now we have one of the largest US coin dealers “modifying” the images of certified NGC coins for reasons that are not clear yet.

Yep ... being .29 miles apart sure has it's benefits !


Offline Hippanda

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2013, 01:43:42 PM »
That certainly raises even more questions, doesn't it ?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2013, 04:04:51 PM »
I think the issues of mislabeled coins and Photoshop fantasy slabs are two separate concerns that shouldn’t be combined into one single discussion. The easy one is the mislabeled coin. I’ve had mislabeled coins from both major grading services. They have both been ready and willing to correct the errors. Those errors can lead to coins selling for more or less than they are actually worth and the TPG's care about that. As a matter of fact, I've been told about one coin dealer who deliberately searches for labeling errors so that he can profit from them in ways both obvious and surprising.

As a consultant there’s a lot I’m still learning about NGC and their resources, all of it very positive I might add. One thing that I’ve never heard is that NGC has any official, or legal, connection to MCM. They are separate companies. That they are located close to each other makes great business sense for MCM or any other coin company. They can get faster turnaround times on their grading. I know one dealer who made a vast amount of money by being located near to PCGS in the days before collectors and many dealers could submit their coins directly to the company. He provided the fastest service by driving submissions over each day. It wouldn’t surprise me if there are other coin companies besides MCM in the Sarasota area, too. If you get a lot of coins graded there’s a benefit to proximity to NGC or PCGS.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 04:31:39 PM by PandaCollector »

Offline GDG's

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2013, 04:27:09 PM »
Has anyone noticed how MCM also has dozens of bids on their ebay China coins? How do they do it?

Has anyone noticed half the bids on many are between the same bidder's?

Has anyone noticed how many of MCM's bidders have a VERY high % of bids with MCM?

Suspicious? In my most humble opinion I think it is quite OBVIOUS.

NGC/MCM cozy relationship? I think so.

"One thing that I’ve never heard is that NGC has any official, or legal, connection to MCM. "

Yes Peter I've never heard any official, or legal, connection between them either. Then again if there were any collusion between the two it certainly wouldn't be knowledge for public consumption would it? I'll not tiptoe around my suspicions just to placate NGC or MCM. Nothing can be proven. These are opinions of many collectors.

We all know au3000 has been trying to make money on mislabeled NGC coins. It's ridiculous and he is like a pimple on one's ass. I don't believe he uses shill bidders which is more a danger to using ebay to buy coins.

Caveat emptor would STRONGLY apply to MCM's ebay listings, IMO.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2013, 05:47:13 PM »
as far as MCM is concerned the fact,s are very implicating ,my personal feelings are they manipulate the market ,and would never see a dime of my money ,the funny business that when on between PA and MCM when in comes to the Singapore medals and the ANA Philadelphia medal is deplorable IMHO

Offline GDG's

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2013, 06:19:08 PM »
as far as MCM is concerned the fact,s are very implicating ,my personal feelings are they manipulate the market ,and would never see a dime of my money ,the funny business that when on between PA and MCM when in comes to the Singapore medals and the ANA Philadelphia medal is deplorable IMHO

jc888888888  +1  for not bidding on MCM listings  I'm with you.

Offline Yandy1990

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2013, 07:30:21 PM »

This is getting more strange:

Look at this MCM auction on eBAY - notice it's "great wall" label:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/380652089457?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Here's the NGS image with the same Cert No - and it is not "great wall" label:
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3589148-018

Does NGC re-label it fro MCM?


Offline Straw Man

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2013, 08:26:27 PM »
Moderncoinmart likes to advertise their exclusive Great Wall Label.
Just how "exclusive" is this label?

Offline digoxin

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2013, 09:52:49 PM »
I am surprised that MCM haven't taken the opportunity to explain themselves with the apparent labelling errors. Until they do I will refrain from buying or participating in their eBay auctions.

In regards to the close relationship it appears that the owner of MCM was previously a senior grader with NGC and helped set up NCS. This to me makes it even more important for MCM to explain themselves to make this situation as transparent as possible.

http://www.moderncoinmart.com/about-our-site.html

Offline Dragon88

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2013, 10:06:39 PM »
At some point of time, small collectors are going to lose confidence with NGC and the intergrity of its grading service and the alleged preferential treatment given to MCM in grading.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2013, 05:56:08 AM »
Moderncoinmart likes to advertise their exclusive Great Wall Label.
Just how "exclusive" is this label?


In my experience both grading services will supply an exclusive label to anyone who brings them enough business. This can be for a single large collection or, in MCM's case, an ongoing supplier. On behalf of a friend I once asked at PCGS about a special label for a collection and the immediate response was "How large is it?" I don't believe that either company would give preferential grading on the coins, but labels are a marketing tool.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Straitssettlementshop

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2013, 07:40:14 AM »
Advice :If you have any dispute with MCM do not open a case against them in Ebay because there was no such record of your disputes recorded in Paypal. Your disputes will be handle by Ebay staffs and you will not get a fair judgement from them.

I suggest to you to open a dispute case in PAYPAL directly eventhough you bought the items listed in MCM Ebay store. In this case you will get a fairer judgements from Paypal staffs.

Heed my advice seriously.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2013, 07:51:44 AM »
Advice :If you have any dispute with MCM do not open a case against them in Ebay because there was no such record of your disputes recorded in Paypal. Your disputes will be handle by Ebay staffs and you will not get a fair judgement from them.

I suggest to you to open a dispute case in PAYPAL directly eventhough you bought the items listed in MCM Ebay store. In this case you will get a fairer judgements from Paypal staffs.



Heed my advice seriously.

the whole thing is just rotten ,there is no way I would buy coins from these folks

Offline BChung

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2013, 09:49:26 AM »
At some point of time, small collectors are going to lose confidence with NGC and the intergrity of its grading service and the alleged preferential treatment given to MCM in grading.

I already am..... First PCGS grades fake coins, now NGC having a crony relationship a sizable dealer....

Confidence in grading????

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2013, 09:54:22 AM »
Vote your displeasure with your wallet IMHO ,let the alleged bid re tractors and shills have those auctions all to themselves:)

Offline Yandy1990

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2013, 12:55:45 PM »
Peter,

We are not talking about exclusive label here. We are talking a coin with exclusive label being sold on eBay but with an image that is not in "exclusive label" in NGC's database. Is it re-labeled?

If someone translate and post the threat to some Chinese forum, NGC's reputation will be in serious trouble. I can see that Chinese collectors may go back to favor OMPs.

Andy

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2013, 01:23:45 PM »
Peter,

We are not talking about exclusive label here. We are talking a coin with exclusive label being sold on eBay but with an image that is not in "exclusive label" in NGC's database. Is it re-labeled?

If someone translate and post the threat to some Chinese forum, NGC's reputation will be in serious trouble. I can see that Chinese collectors may go back to favor OMPs.

Andy

Anyone can get a coin re-labeled. Just send it in (NGC or PCGS) and pay the fee to have it re-holdered. A new label should be included. Someone with a scratched holder might use that service, or an old one. I don't think it can be done with 70 coins, however. I'm not saying that is what happened here but it easily could have.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline wg

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Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2013, 02:01:06 PM »
  :001_tongue:

btw.

anyone can do what they like to do

for ex ... he likes shanghai omp

http://www.ebay.de/itm/CHINA-1-oz-Chinesische-Bronze-Funde-2013-Silber-2-Ausgabe-/171063143907?pt=M%C3%BCnzen_Medaillen&hash=item27d4286de3

Good point wg ... OMP is even less reliable than graded. Anyone with a cheap heat sealer can put whatever they want into "OMP"

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2013, 02:03:21 PM »
Hi Peter,
First off I want to say that I’m sure you are aware that I have tremendous respect for you and great appreciation for the work you have done. The articles you write and the Panda Book have been very beneficial to stimulate interest for Chinese Panda’s around the world. I say all of this because I want you to know this before I say that I disagree with your responses in this thread.

I understand that you are a consultant for NGC and in no way did I even expect you even make a comment to these MCM/NGC shenanigans as I would not want you to jeopardize your position with NGC and this MCM chicanery and NGC’s position regarding it goes way above your head. I would honestly be interested to know what the “top brass” at NGC think but then again … the NGC response to Birdman pretty much sums up the NGC position which is absolutely abhorrent.

Quote from: PandaCollector
I think the issues of mislabeled coins and Photoshop fantasy slabs are two separate concerns that shouldn’t be combined into one single discussion
In your response here, I think that you may have misinterpreted my reasoning in posting the communication between I and NGC, the point I was making had nothing to do with my mislabeled coin but rather the harsh position NGC had taken against me for such a minor issue compared their lackadaisical response to the MCM “doctored” coin/holder. I posted the NGC email just so others could see what was told to me but I did block the name of the NGC representative as he has always been very helpful, I have a lot of respect for him and he was just basically doing what he was told to do. 

On a side note just to make it very clear … the mislabeled gold coin I was selling for $400 was only one of two 70 grade coins of that type in the NGC census and the only other was being listed on Ebay for $950 by another seller so I was clearly not trying to profit from the mislabeled coin, I even sold it for the same price once the label was corrected. My listing also made no insinuations that this coin was of any higher value for the mislabeled coin, I simply stated that this coin is an “MS” coin and not a “PF” coin as indicated on the NGC holder.

So the primary reason for my posting the NGC communication is not that I was threatened with my NGC membership, it’s that actions of a much more serious and nefarious behavior by MCM were simply ignored lackadaisically by NGC.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2013, 02:13:56 PM »
Advice :If you have any dispute with MCM do not open a case against them in Ebay because there was no such record of your disputes recorded in Paypal. Your disputes will be handle by Ebay staffs and you will not get a fair judgement from them.

I suggest to you to open a dispute case in PAYPAL directly eventhough you bought the items listed in MCM Ebay store. In this case you will get a fairer judgements from Paypal staffs.

Heed my advice seriously.

Ebay owns Paypal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2013, 02:26:34 PM »
a coin can certainly be reholdered but correct me if I am wrong I never have seen 1 come back with the same cert#??? please jump in and correct me if i am wrong

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2013, 02:31:05 PM »
a coin can certainly be reholdered but correct me if I am wrong I never have seen 1 come back with the same cert#??? please jump in and correct me if i am wrong
Hi Jc888 ... yes a reholdered coin does come back with same cert number

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2013, 02:32:29 PM »
To get back to the most important issue at hand here is the fact that MCM manipulated an NGC holder for a 1990 G5Y Gold Panda in order to either do one of the following:

1. Remove the original coin along with the internal white gasket and replaced it with another gasket and coin but failed to realize it was not the correct year/size/denomination coin for the intended NGC holder.

2. Utilized Photoshop or some other photo editing software to cut/crop the original image of the 1990 G5Y Gold Panda and replace it with the image of a 2001 G50Y Gold Panda


These two scenarios above are clearly the facts of what occurred and either one of these two situations are definitely what occurred … there is simply no other explanation. If so I would like to hear it.

Another thing to consider is that it’s obviously not the first time MCM has modified an NGC holder, if it would have been the very first time MCM had performed this “trick” then very close scrutiny would have been extended to this operation on its “maiden voyage” to ensure the modified NGC holder would fly under the radar of the most astute collector. MCM has apparently done this “trick” on so many occasions that they got just a little too comfortable performing it so frequently that they inevitably let their little secret accidentally slip out … Now the “cat is out of the bag”

I think now that we can all irrefutably establish the fact that these of these two scenarios listed above did occur … we now must question WHY MCM decided to perform  these reprehensible shenanigans and WHY it is condoned by NGC. Before we look at possible reasons why MCM altered the NGC coin/holder in question, I do think it’s also important to note what has already been mentioned in this thread that the CEO of MCM (John Maben) does previously have eight years at NGC as the NGC Executive Vice President and a Grading Finalizer. Although John’s previous “high level” corporate position at NGC and MCM’s close proximity to NGC (1,500 feet away) may not be the “smoking gun” … I do believe these facts about John/MCM along with “doctored coin/holder” debacle coupled with NGC’s cavalier response to the “doctored coin/holder” lead us all to believe that the preponderance of evidence before us establishes that there is gross misconduct at MCM/NGC/Ebay and that it has been sanctioned at the highest levels within these companies.
 
Some people are delusional who cannot see the relevance of the relationship between John Maben, his 35 MCM “numismatic professionals” (how many are former NGC?), the current “cronyism” between MCM/NGC/ Ebay … all of this suspicion now has merit considering the recent revelation of “Frankencoin” and the lack of admonishment for the trickery and intentions behind it. Remember folks … “Frankencoin” was not a “stock” photo as NGC alleged … it was a “doctored/manipulated” holder/coin which is substantially more conducive to deceptive behavior. In the past I disregarded the history between MCM and NGC as irrelevant but this recent incident and how it is being handled by NGC has modified my perception of NGC.       

So now that we have established without doubt that MCM did in fact execute either one of the two maneuvers listed above (or both) … it is imperative for the welfare of the entire numismatic community that we discover exactly what the reasoning is behind this type of dishonest behavior. Also it is very important that we must all consider the fact that this ominous behavior is occurring with one of the largest (maybe the largest) dealer of NGC graded coins in the USA and possibly the world.

There are several possible reasons that MCM would create “Frankencoin” but a few motives that come to mind are the following:

1. It’s possible that MCM has discovered a technique in which to compromise the NGC holder without detection (John has 8 years of NGC experience) therefore they can remove 69 or 70 grade coins and replace these high grade coins with less desirable coins. Now they have a low quality coin with an instant high grade in an NGC holder. Then MCM can just resubmit the original high grade coins to NGC to get another 69/70 grade and sell the lower grade coins which are now in high grade NGC holders.

2. It’s possible that the NGC graded coin MCM is currently selling may have a high NGC grade but also has imperfections so what MCM may be doing is photoshopping perfect coin images over the image of imperfect coins so that the buyer does not see these defects upon purchase. MCM is banking that when the buyer receives the defective coin that they do not see the imperfection and that it is not the coin that was initially advertised for sale.

After being a longtime loyal NGC supporter … their response to Frankencoin is extremely unsettling and quite frankly very disturbing for me. I have to say that my confidence in NGC at this moment is quite shaken. My testament to being faithful to NGC is evident with my NGC coin collection currently sitting at #27 out of 800 World Coin Sets which does not include several coins that I was planning to send in for NGC grading.  

I’m going to hold off on grading or purchasing any other coins for now. I’m so disgusted that I may even liquidate my entire coin collection as the other collectibles I’m involved in have nowhere near the level of nonsense as numismatics.   

In closing I’ll also add that when it comes to OMP coins, the propensity for trickery is just as probable. We have all seen the resealing of crap coins and counterfeits, it’s actually easier to accomplish with OMP than it is with graded coins. I’ve experienced it myself on a first hand basis. Anyone with a cheap heat sealer can reseal anything they want into “OMP” but this OMP topic I believe is for another thread. At the moment I would like to know what is going on with the MCM/Frankencoin and how can this be condoned by one of the most respected and reputable coin grading companies in the world. 

For now we have three-ring circus going on and the stars of the “show” are MCM, NGC & Ebay. It’s time for someone to “raise the curtain” so we can all see what’s going on behind the scene.       

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2013, 03:16:46 PM »
Hi Peter,
First off I want to say that I’m sure you are aware that I have tremendous respect for you and great appreciation for the work you have done. The articles you write and the Panda Book have been very beneficial to stimulate interest for Chinese Panda’s around the world. I say all of this because I want you to know this before I say that I disagree with your responses in this thread.

I understand that you are a consultant for NGC and in no way did I even expect you even make a comment to these MCM/NGC shenanigans as I would not want you to jeopardize your position with NGC and this MCM chicanery and NGC’s position regarding it goes way above your head. I would honestly be interested to know what the “top brass” at NGC think but then again … the NGC response to Birdman pretty much sums up the NGC position which is absolutely abhorrent.
In your response here, I think that you may have misinterpreted my reasoning in posting the communication between I and NGC, the point I was making had nothing to do with my mislabeled coin but rather the harsh position NGC had taken against me for such a minor issue compared their lackadaisical response to the MCM “doctored” coin/holder. I posted the NGC email just so others could see what was told to me but I did block the name of the NGC representative as he has always been very helpful, I have a lot of respect for him and he was just basically doing what he was told to do.  

On a side note just to make it very clear … the mislabeled gold coin I was selling for $400 was only one of two 70 grade coins of that type in the NGC census and the only other was being listed on Ebay for $950 by another seller so I was clearly not trying to profit from the mislabeled coin, I even sold it for the same price once the label was corrected. My listing also made no insinuations that this coin was of any higher value for the mislabeled coin, I simply stated that this coin is an “MS” coin and not a “PF” coin as indicated on the NGC holder.

So the primary reason for my posting the NGC communication is not that I was threatened with my NGC membership, it’s that actions of a much more serious and nefarious behavior by MCM were simply ignored lackadaisically by NGC.


Comeaux,

I asked my main contact at NGC about the message you received. I was told that whoever wrote you that message could have phrased it better, or maybe given more thought to the message itself. My contact thought it was harsh, too.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2013, 04:15:18 PM »
I hope it will be helpful for me to make a general statement about grading companies here. Over the last two years I have worked as a consultant (not employee) for both NGC and PCGS. I’ve gotten to know many people at both companies and have made friends in both places.

The two companies are highly competitive and are always trying to get ahead of each other in the market. That’s normal business. Nothing that I have ever encountered at either firm has made me question the integrity of their grading of modern Chinese coins. I’ve been to meetings, talked in private, gone out to dinner with people from both firms and no one has ever said, or hinted at, any favoritism for a particular client.

To support this consider that several graders have gone from NGC to PCGS and vice versa. Others have been fired and bear the companies no love. It’s my belief that if any grader had ever been given instructions to give special consideration to a specific client it would have become public by now.

For myself, neither company would give me a discount, or even faster service because I have a relationship with them. If you bring up the idea that grades are rigged the employees look at you like you have lost your mind.

I have had discussions with dealers and others who believe that bulk submissions get higher grades and maybe that’s true. I also know companies that have submitted huge quantities of coins and gotten lousy grades back. They weren't very happy. The most successful person, or company, I ‘ve seen at getting 70’s back is a member of this Forum and not a big submitter at all. Go figure.

As for myself, I’ve gotten many coins back that I thought were under graded and a couple that graded higher than expected. I have never, NEVER, gotten a 70 back for one of my own coins, so you can see how beneficial my relationship with NGC and PCGS has been in that regard.

What coin dealers do is a whole other topic – like the one being discussed here.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com


Offline mazinger7000

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2013, 05:39:34 PM »
i don't think that comeaux's complaint with NGC is that their email to him was worded harshly. he's bringing to light the apparent hypocrisy of their taking no action whatsoever on the issue of MCM either doctoring a real NGC coin holder, or photoshopping one to appear different than it is. either scenario should clearly be taken much more seriously by NGC. and yet they seem not to care. by the way, neither does ebay, as none of the mcm shill bid auctions have been taken down.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2013, 06:50:11 PM »
I do have to agree with Comeaux " I have to say that my confidence in NGC has been severely shaken" as person who spent in excess of 10k in fees since the beginning of this year with NGC , the term third party independent grading service has at the very least been called into question ,NGC imho has to come out and address this forcefully and MCM has a lot of questions of integrity they need to address ........

Offline Yandy1990

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2013, 07:20:17 PM »
Hi Jc888 ... yes a reholdered coin does come back with same cert number

Thanks for pointing that out.

Wouldn't NGC takes picture before they send the graded coins back. If that is true, the fact that the image in NGC database is different than that being auctioned can only indicate 1) MCM changed the holder; or 2) NGC reholdered it but did not update its database.

Offline Yandy1990

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2013, 07:24:00 PM »

So the primary reason for my posting the NGC communication is not that I was threatened with my NGC membership, it’s that actions of a much more serious and nefarious behavior by MCM were simply ignored lackadaisically by NGC.


It's very clear to me that Comeaux was complaining about being traded harshly, instad, he's talking about more serious problem here.

In fact, if NGC were to apologize to Comeaux for being too harsh, and were to tell us that their response to MCM's issue is a norm, THIS IS MUCH WORSE! As a collector, I'd rather NGC has a higher standard (or shall I say has a standard).

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2013, 08:47:34 PM »
Speaking as a Forum member and not on behalf of anyone else there are a couple of things here that I think we should be clear on. One is that as I understand the law anybody can alter, or Photoshop, an image of their own coins and nobody else can do much about it. Altering an image is not against the law, per se. The question is what is that image used for? If someone buys something based on an altered image then they may well have grounds to claim they were defrauded. So far there is only speculation and no evidence that has occurred. AFAIK no one has claimed they received a different coin from MCM than the one they paid for. So what statement are we looking for and from who? I'm sure that NGC can provide clarity on its own policies but I've never seen any company issue a statement about what another company does.

Second, no one here knows if NGC and MCM have ever discussed, or ever will discuss, the issues raised in this topic. If they ever do I imagine that what is said would be private as is normal in business negotiations. But if the issue is Photoshopped images used on *Bay that is between the party doing the listing and *Bay. NGC would not be part of that conversation and I can't imagine why they would make any sort of public statement about it.

The main problem here as I see it is that many people feel that *Bay doesn't respond adequately to complaints about shill bidding and other problems in their auctions. Nonetheless it is *Bay that has the rules about Photoshopped or stock images and shill bidding on its site. It is the one that needs to take action, not make statements. MCM issues are MCM issues and they should address those if they care to.

Anyway, I am checking out of this conversation as I have a Pricepedia to finish and send out. There's a lot going on behind the scenes in the Chinese coin world to report on. Best wishes to everyone here and thanks for hearing me out.

Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline exchange

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2013, 10:14:13 PM »
I don't know much about either NGC or MCM. Never ever dealt with them and never contacted them.

One major reason why I chose OMP and will always choose OMP over grading is what I wrote almost two years ago.
Yes, as Comeau said, the differences belong on another thread and with the OMP reseal shenanigans, you need to be extra careful and extra homework is required and it is by no means any safer, but I will always know that if I get the OMP right, the battle is pretty much won and that is all I needed to worry about.

The below were my concerns two years ago.

Badon: "Do you realize that your coin is in direct contact with PVC, also known as polyvinylCHLORIDE. That last part is the chlorine. It will eventually ruin your coins. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of its life. NCS might be able to help at first, but eventually the coin will seem to have a permanent stain, even after conservation"

exchange: "Maybe so, but I rather that then getting back another coin from our trusted friends at the grading facility".


"I'm not betting on plastic, I'm betting on the tarnished reputation of the grading companies down the road.
All sectors of the collectible world have had their own experts, experts that swore items they signed and touched were genuine to only be proven wrong because of greed. This will be no different. These coins are dipped in solutions and who knows what else is done to them before they are slabbed. No thanks, I'll take my chances the honest way.
The thing is as long as the game works everybody is happy. As long as everyone is making money of each other based on a third party, everyone is happy. Every grading company swears they are doing the right thing, I hope they are but history has shown us otherwise".

Interesting old thread for those who have recently joined.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3634.msg17287#msg17287



exchange

Offline Dragon88

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2013, 11:24:27 PM »

One major reason why I chose OMP and will always choose OMP over grading is what I wrote almost two years ago.
but I will always know that if I get the OMP right, the battle is pretty much won and that is all I needed to worry about.

exchange

What took you so long? Was waiting for your wise words :)

Offline davidt3251

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2013, 11:33:18 PM »
I have been looking at my MCM coins. Will all MCM coins now be discounted by (a) a risk factor related to authenticity and (b) the cost of relabeling the coin in a non-MCM label to attempt to remove the discount (although realizing with modern databases the NGC# may now be permanently tainted)?

Offline davidt3251

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2013, 11:39:12 PM »
I don't know much about either NGC or MCM. Never ever dealt with them and never contacted them.

One major reason why I chose OMP and will always choose OMP over grading is what I wrote almost two years ago.
Yes, as Comeau said, the differences belong on another thread and with the OMP reseal shenanigans, you need to be extra careful and extra homework is required and it is by no means any safer, but I will always know that if I get the OMP right, the battle is pretty much won and that is all I needed to worry about.

The below were my concerns two years ago.

Badon: "Do you realize that your coin is in direct contact with PVC, also known as polyvinylCHLORIDE. That last part is the chlorine. It will eventually ruin your coins. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of its life. NCS might be able to help at first, but eventually the coin will seem to have a permanent stain, even after conservation"

exchange: "Maybe so, but I rather that then getting back another coin from our trusted friends at the grading facility".


"I'm not betting on plastic, I'm betting on the tarnished reputation of the grading companies down the road.
All sectors of the collectible world have had their own experts, experts that swore items they signed and touched were genuine to only be proven wrong because of greed. This will be no different. These coins are dipped in solutions and who knows what else is done to them before they are slabbed. No thanks, I'll take my chances the honest way.
The thing is as long as the game works everybody is happy. As long as everyone is making money of each other based on a third party, everyone is happy. Every grading company swears they are doing the right thing, I hope they are but history has shown us otherwise".

Interesting old thread for those who have recently joined.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3634.msg17287#msg17287



exchange

Exchange,

My dragon boat coin has a 10 Yuan mint mark, like this one Xuhong is selling:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2002-1oz-dragon-boat-festival-silver-coin-with-COA-original-box-/370839388089?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item5657bfffb9




But yours is missing the 10 Yuan mintmark.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1115.msg34315#msg34315

Your coin without the 10 Yuan mintmark (even if it is OMP) kind of concerns me.

-D

Offline Dragon88

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2013, 11:43:00 PM »
Exchange,

My dragon boat coin has a 10 Yuan mint mark, like this one Xuhong is selling:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2002-1oz-dragon-boat-festival-silver-coin-with-COA-original-box-/370839388089?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item5657bfffb9




But yours is missing the 10 Yuan mintmark.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1115.msg34315#msg34315

Your coin without the 10 Yuan mintmark (even if it is OMP) kind of concerns me.

-D

But the 10 Yuan mintmark can be clearly seen in Exchange's picture?!?!

Offline exchange

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2013, 11:49:15 PM »
Exchange,

My dragon boat coin has a 10 Yuan mint mark, like this one Xuhong is selling:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2002-1oz-dragon-boat-festival-silver-coin-with-COA-original-box-/370839388089?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item5657bfffb9




But yours is missing the 10 Yuan mintmark.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1115.msg34315#msg34315

Your coin without the 10 Yuan mintmark (even if it is OMP) kind of concerns me.

-D

Thank you for the heads up. It's just a bad picture. Below is a better picture.

exchange

Offline davidt3251

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2013, 11:54:32 PM »
Exchange,
I understand your point about OMP, and I have some coins in OMP, but your first picture underscores the importance of grading companies to some collectors. That image dragon_front.jpg it looks like it has no 10 yuan mintmark. When you go to sell that coin, with that image, you might not realize full value. In an NGC or PCGS holder, I would argue realized value would be higher, and the coin would be more liquid overall.
Maybe its the angle, but it actually looks like a fake, which is another point. In OMP, the collector has to photograph their own coin, and possibly an inferior photo makes a good coin look bad.
So I think grading companies will always have some sort of role.
-D

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2013, 12:02:26 AM »
Are we looking at different picture?


Offline exchange

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2013, 12:06:33 AM »
Exchange,
I understand your point about OMP, and I have some coins in OMP, but your first picture underscores the importance of grading companies to some collectors. That image dragon_front.jpg it looks like it has no 10 yuan mintmark. When you go to sell that coin, with that image, you might not realize full value. In an NGC or PCGS holder, I would argue realized value would be higher, and the coin would be more liquid overall.
Maybe its the angle, but it actually looks like a fake, which is another point. In OMP, the collector has to photograph their own coin, and possibly an inferior photo makes a good coin look bad.
So I think grading companies will always have some sort of role.
-D

I completely agree. Taking good quality pictures is key, however this picture I quickly took with a cell phone for a quick upload. Yes, the collector does indeed have to photograph their own coins and that is the way I prefer it. Each collector should take the time and effort to study their coins they buy and put that same effort when selling. Something we can't say about several numismatic professionals....

exchange

Offline exchange

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2013, 12:08:50 AM »
Better picture, again taken with a cell phone as I have no need to sell.... yet  :001_smile:

exchange

Offline Dragon88

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2013, 12:35:20 AM »
Exchange,
I understand your point about OMP, and I have some coins in OMP, but your first picture underscores the importance of grading companies to some collectors. That image dragon_front.jpg it looks like it has no 10 yuan mintmark. When you go to sell that coin, with that image, you might not realize full value. In an NGC or PCGS holder, I would argue realized value would be higher, and the coin would be more liquid overall.
Maybe its the angle, but it actually looks like a fake, which is another point. In OMP, the collector has to photograph their own coin, and possibly an inferior photo makes a good coin look bad.
So I think grading companies will always have some sort of role.
-D

I beg to differ. It took me less than 2 seconds to see the 10 yuan mint mark. Also, as Exchange quite rightly pointed out he wasn't looking to sell the coin, so its just a picture taken via a mobile phone to share with forum members here. No need to use a camera to take a high resolution picture. In any case, if a seller wanted to sell a coin and the picture looks blured, 99% of the time the buyer will ask for a better resolution picture or clarify with the seller. No genuine buyer will immediately say the coin is fake and walk away.

As to your assertion that the coin looks fake, I hope you were joking.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2013, 12:41:45 AM »
I think there is an OMP vs. Grading thread somewhere in the forum so I don’t want to get on that topic here in this thread but as David has stated and also many other highly recognized/experienced collectors with high value MCC such as Arif and the late Nick Brown, grading does have its values. Especially for higher value coins, maybe not so much for cheap less desirable coins.

It’s been substantiated on many occasions that the majority of graded coins next to their counterpart in OMP do sell for higher in auction. Look at Xu Hong ebay site now compared to a year ago … infinitely more graded coins now.    

The main issue I have had throughout this thread is the position that NGC initially has taken in its response to birdman regarding the MCM coin and the fact that MCM is being deceptive.  

I will reiterate what I said earlier … in my opinion, OMP is even less reliable today than ever before as ANYONE with a cheap heat sealer can put whatever they want in plastic. I personally do not buy OMP any longer.

For those interested … here may be a thread of interest about rewrapped/resealed OMP coins:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=886.0

To get back on topic about the MCM coin … here is Florida’s law regarding Consumer Protection in which I believe MCM is treading on shaky ground regarding “unfair or deceptive acts or practices” in section 501.204 “Unlawful acts and practices”

REGULATION OF TRADE, COMMERCE, INVESTMENTS, AND SOLICITATIONS
CONSUMER PROTECTION

501.203
(8) “Trade or commerce” means the advertising, soliciting, providing, offering, or distributing, whether by sale, rental, or otherwise, of any good or service, or any property, whether tangible or intangible, or any other article, commodity, or thing of value, wherever situated. “Trade or commerce” shall include the conduct of any trade or commerce, however denominated, including any nonprofit or not-for-profit person or activity.

501.204 Unlawful acts and practices
(1) Unfair methods of competition, unconscionable acts or practices, and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in the conduct of any trade or commerce are hereby declared unlawful.

501.2075 Civil penalty.—Except as provided in s. 501.2077, any person, firm, corporation, association, or entity, or any agent or employee of the foregoing, who is willfully using, or has willfully used, a method, act, or practice declared unlawful under s. 501.204, or who is willfully violating any of the rules of the department adopted under this part, is liable for a civil penalty of not more than $10,000 for each such violation. Willful violations occur when the person knew or should have known that his or her conduct was unfair or deceptive or prohibited by rule.  

Offline Obsidian

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2013, 01:48:32 AM »
NGC responded to my note by saying,

 "Thank you for your email.  This is a photo shopped image that they are using to sell these coins.  If you were to purchase a coin, it would have a different certification number that would match the label..  Dealers will do this when they have a large quantity to sell."

So they don't seem to be worried about it.

I guess I still don't understand how taking a photo of a label on a slab, and then using photoshop to cut it out and paste that label on a different slab, is easier than simply taking a photo of the slabbed coin you want to sell?  Is making such composite photos of different slabs, labels, & coins consistent with eBay policies?  I just want transparency, so I don't feel like I always need to be looking over my shoulder for some scam.

From that response I don't know if whoever from NGC answered your question really understood the question or took the time to understand the issue.  It seems like they might just be referring in general to photoshopped photos or stock type photos.  I personally understand why a dealer selling thousands of modern coins or bullion type coins would hope to use stock photos or something else that would increase efficiency.  If I were a buyer of these types of coins I would want to buy them as cheaply as possible. In many cases it isn't exactly reasonable to assume they are taking pictures of each coin.  I personally don't worry a lot about it if the seller has a decent return policy.  If I get a coin I don't like, I return it.  Usually I can't even see how nice a coin is from a picture.  That is exactly why we have grading services and return policies.

I know many of you don't agree but that is how I see it.

With the issue being discussed I think NGC has the least to worry about.  I have a much bigger issue with MCM and especially with what appears to be shill bidding.  As has been said before, use caution when bidding with them I guess.

Offline davidt3251

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2013, 02:04:15 AM »
Comeaux,

After reading the Florida law, it would seem that resealing coins to look like OMP would also fall under the definition of a violation.
In my opinion, a Photoshopped image is just a modern-day, software enabled cousin to a resealed coin.

-David

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #77 on: June 23, 2013, 02:32:53 AM »
Quote from: Obsidian
From that response I don't know if whoever from NGC answered your question really understood the question or took the time to understand the issue.  It seems like they might just be referring in general to photoshopped photos or stock type photos.  I personally understand why a dealer selling thousands of modern coins or bullion type coins would hope to use stock photos or something else that would increase efficiency.  If I were a buyer of these types of coins I would want to buy them as cheaply as possible. In many cases it isn't exactly reasonable to assume they are taking pictures of each coin.  I personally don't worry a lot about it if the seller has a decent return policy.  If I get a coin I don't like, I return it.  Usually I can't even see how nice a coin is from a picture.  That is exactly why we have grading services and return policies.

Yes I can see where a lot of this makes sense except there is a big difference in “stock” photos and “photoshopping” … I still do not see the reason needed to photoshop as the MCM coin was attempted.

It is my understanding that “stock” photos are against Ebay policy just as shilling.


Quote from: davidt3251
Comeaux,

After reading the Florida law, it would seem that resealing coins to look like OMP would also fall under the definition of a violation.
In my opinion, a Photoshopped image is just a modern-day, software enabled cousin to a resealed coin.

-David

According to the Florida law I would also agree with you … when it involves “Consumer Protection”, laws throughout the US are nearly identical. I would be willing to bet Canada as well. 

I (and many others) have always felt that resealing coins is very deceptive … it is just as deceiving as photoshopping coins. 

Offline panda88

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Offline wg

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2013, 03:59:33 AM »
 
In my opinion, a Photoshopped image is just a modern-day, software enabled cousin to a resealed coin.

agree







Offline Obsidian

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #81 on: June 23, 2013, 04:14:21 AM »
Here's good one  GENUINE After  photo shopped All the marks , dings are GONE.
Sold on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1982-China-1-oz-Gold-Panda-NGC-Genuine-EXCLUSIVE-GREAT-WALL-LABEL-SKU27601-/130872154367?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1e789698ff&nma=true&si=RVhRs19rhnzbubdMYSe5Re4uTKc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Compare to NGC :

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3695648-001


I see no issues with either of those comparisons.  They both look like the same coins to me.  Anytime 2 different people take picture of a coin there will be subtle differences.  The angle of the camera, lighting, and many other factors can make a difference on how a coin looks.  Neither of those coins look dramatically different relative to the NGC pictures.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #82 on: June 23, 2013, 07:20:09 AM »
I see no issues with either of those comparisons.  They both look like the same coins to me.  Anytime 2 different people take picture of a coin there will be subtle differences.  The angle of the camera, lighting, and many other factors can make a difference on how a coin looks.  Neither of those coins look dramatically different relative to the NGC pictures.
I agree ,I am no expert and can tell they are the same........

Offline Birdman

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #83 on: June 23, 2013, 08:06:30 AM »
Here's good one  GENUINE After  photo shopped All the marks , dings are GONE.
Sold on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1982-China-1-oz-Gold-Panda-NGC-Genuine-EXCLUSIVE-GREAT-WALL-LABEL-SKU27601-/130872154367?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1e789698ff&nma=true&si=RVhRs19rhnzbubdMYSe5Re4uTKc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Compare to NGC :

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3695648-001

I see no issues with either of those comparisons.  They both look like the same coins to me.  Anytime 2 different people take picture of a coin there will be subtle differences.  The angle of the camera, lighting, and many other factors can make a difference on how a coin looks.  Neither of those coins look dramatically different relative to the NGC pictures.

At first glance, there seem to be significant differences between the two photos on the temple side of the coin (at 10, 2, 4 & 8 o'clock.  Coin removed from bezel?).  

My sense at the moment is that MCM likely has a template eBay listings for the various date and denomination pandas (For instance, 1982 gold 1 ounce panda).  It has three photos of that type of coin: An entire slab, a close-up of the panda side, and a close-up of the temple side.  It seems that they may photoshop in the label of the particular coin they are selling into the slab photo and keep the other photos the same.  Then they list it.  Simple and quick.  By reusing the template, they only have to take and upload one photo, instead of three.  The issue with this, of course, is that the particular coin they are selling and that you will receive may not have the blemish-free surface of their template coin.  I bet they would give a refund if you were disappointed, but it is deceptive, as the pretty coin you see in the photos and is influencing your bidding may not be the one you will receive.

At other times, MCM doesn't even take the step to photoshop in a new label, they just reuse the same stock photo with the same certification number.  This also has its problems, as it reduces transparency, and prevents a buyer from ruling out certain unethical dealer practices.

In my personal opinion at the moment, if you bought a coin from MCM, I think you would receive a coin in a slab that is unaltered and properly graded.  I have no reason at the moment to believe NGC is lowering their standards or in collusion with MCM.  I just have an issue with the way MCM is selling their coins.  The photoshopping of photos is deceptive  and there are some troubling signs that there may be some highly unusual bidding patterns in MCM auctions.  I think that MCM is such a good customer that NGC and eBay may not be as strict in enforcing some of their policies.  

It wouldn't surprise me if there are some dealers that create mutliple bidding accounts and are currently shill bidding.  I am not a tech expert, but I suspect that by using something like a proxy server, some dealers might be able to generate different IP addresses for their different bidder usernames, so that a casual review by eBay wouldn't uncover any solid evidence of shill bidding.  As has been mentioned before, if the dealer generates large fee revenue for eBay, it may not be in eBay's short term financial interested to do the higher level technological detective work to verify the shill bidding.  The shill bidding would allow the dealer to push up prices.  If the shiller got stuck with the high bid, they could either retract their bid, or they could "buy" the coin, and the seller could just quietly relist the coin later, hoping to get a an unsuspecting buyer stuck with the high bid the next time.  By reusing stock photos with the same certification number there is no way to detect such deception.

I cannot say for certain what is going on with MCM.  Clearly, I am supicious that there is something that is not entirely honest going on.  We have seen that NGC and eBay, by not strictly enforcing their policies with MCM, can have their reputations influenced by MCM's non-transparent practices.

If I were eBay or NGC, I would tighten up my enforcement of my policies so that my reputation was not dragged into the mud by association with others.

As for MCM, their silence is deafening.


Offline Birdman

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #84 on: June 23, 2013, 08:45:02 AM »
Look at these photos.

(1) A panda in a style of bezel with 4 points of support.
(2) The NGC file photo of that "Genuine" graded 1982 with apparent marks in the locations one would expect if it were damaged by such a bezel
(3) The MCM photo of that "Genuine" graded 1982 with no apparent marks.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #85 on: June 23, 2013, 10:37:55 AM »
OMP vs graded.  Why not own one of each?  Collect a 69 slabbed and a OMP w/ box & coa...........

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #86 on: June 23, 2013, 01:30:52 PM »
Quote from: Birdman
At first glance, there seem to be significant differences between the two photos


I agree birdman … definitely different coins because of what you have alluded with bezel marks on one but I noticed the eyes immediately without any other comparisons. Definitely not the same coin. Obsidian an JC are correct and that photos at different angles can produce various results on identical coins but these photos are both basically taken from nearly straight on front and back.   


Quote from: Birdman
My sense at the moment is that MCM likely has a template eBay listings for the various date and denomination pandas (For instance, 1982 gold 1 ounce panda).  It has three photos of that type of coin: An entire slab, a close-up of the panda side, and a close-up of the temple side.  It seems that they may photoshop in the label of the particular coin they are selling into the slab photo and keep the other photos the same.  Then they list it.  Simple and quick.  By reusing the template, they only have to take and upload one photo, instead of three.  The issue with this, of course, is that the particular coin they are selling and that you will receive may not have the blemish-free surface of their template coin.  I bet they would give a refund if you were disappointed, but it is deceptive, as the pretty coin you see in the photos and is influencing your bidding may not be the one you will receive.

At other times, MCM doesn't even take the step to photoshop in a new label, they just reuse the same stock photo with the same certification number.  This also has its problems, as it reduces transparency, and prevents a buyer from ruling out certain unethical dealer practices.

Good post birdman … When large companies use stock photos, they use the exact image for all of their listings, this is obviously the quickest and most efficient method. It makes no sense at all to photoshop with templates as we have seen MCM doing. While this may not take much time … it takes MUCH more time that just using a stock photo. I think we can all agree that MCM is less than reputable and uses the photoshop “with template” method to enhance the appearance of specific coins they are selling.


Quote from: Birdman
In my personal opinion at the moment, if you bought a coin from MCM, I think you would receive a coin in a slab that is unaltered and properly graded
I’m not so sure that I will take this leap of faith.

I agree you will receive a coin that’s properly graded but not the one you bid on. Collectors like you and I along with the majority of members here would be able to discern any possible defects in the coin purchased and the one received but what about those less experienced collectors who may not see subtle differences?

After further consideration I do feel that this issue lies mostly with MCM but I also feel NGC has a problem on their hands if they do not address MCM “altering” or “modifying” a certified and authenticated NGC coin image with the intention to make that coin more marketable.     

Offline Obsidian

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #87 on: June 23, 2013, 02:34:42 PM »
After taking a look at the other closeup photos provided by MCM.  I initially only looked at the main slab photo. I would agree, the close-up shots do not appear to be the same coin, especially the temple side.  The picture of the entire coin and holder looks like it could be the same coin to me.  Even different lighting, contrast adjustments and such can really hide details.  I see a lot of coin dealers that use pictures that show the frosty devices really well but the mirrored fields practically look black.  This type of photo can easily hide problems in the field on proof-like coins.

I do have an issue with modern coin mart using stock photos or photoshopping.  Their listing specifically says the coin pictured is the coin you will receive.  This isn't junk silver or gold they are selling.  I assume they are making enough money to employ some cheap labor to take pictures and input the actual photos of the coins.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #88 on: June 23, 2013, 02:44:17 PM »
great post Comeaux ! your statement below I agree with 1000% and hits right at the heart of the matter ,if I was NGC or even just as a lowly NGC customer who has spent considerable dollars and put a great deal of faith in NGC to fairly and accurately essentially determine the value of a coin (grading)  in an unbiased professional manner with a high degree of accuracy then they need to vigorously  police there reputation for their sake and their customer,s well being also.

Comeaux quote:"After further consideration I do feel that this issue lies mostly with MCM but I also feel NGC has a problem on their hands if they do not address MCM “altering” or “modifying” a certified and authenticated NGC coin image with the intention to make that coin more marketable."    

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #89 on: June 23, 2013, 02:56:19 PM »
I trick I often use to see if the enlarged pics on ebay are of the same coin as the slab is to right click on the picture in the ebay listing, select properties.  It will give you the file name of the picture.  

The slab pic file name is http://www.moderncoinmart.com/store/images/D/1982_g1oz_panda_genuine_web.jpg
The panda side enlarged is http://www.moderncoinmart.com/store/images/D/1982_g1oz_panda_ms_obv_web.jpg
The temple side enlarged is http://www.moderncoinmart.com/store/images/D/1982_g1oz_panda_ms_rev_web.jpg

Their file naming convention is to put the grade in the file name, such as in the 1982 1oz MS66 currently listed http://www.ebay.com/itm/140988453475
http://www.moderncoinmart.com/store/images/D/1982_g1oz_panda_ngcMS66_obv_web.jpg

Notice for the genuine coin enlarged pictures the word "genuine" or "number grade" is missing from the description, this tells me the enlarged pic are stock photos.  

When you look at my enlarged photos on ebay listings, the slab photo may have file name IMG_453, while the enlarged will have IMB_453 - Copy, which ensures I post the right enlarged photos with my pics, many dealers have a consistent convention, find the consistent convention and then use that info to test any pics you think are in error.

Of course not everyone should become tech detective in order to safely buy on ebay or have anti-shilling procedures in place to foil shill bidding. If the seller is too busy to take pictures of every coin they should watermark the words "stock photo" on every pictures and include text in the description that pictured coin is similar in quality to the coin you will receive.  If they don't want their coins to sell to cheap use reserves, high starting prices or buy it now.

Arif

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2013, 03:13:44 PM »
hits right at the heart of the matter ,if I was NGC or even just as a lowly NGC customer who has spent considerable dollars and put a great deal of faith in NGC to fairly and accurately essentially determine the value of a coin (grading)  in an unbiased professional manner with a high degree of accuracy then they need to vigorously  police there reputation for their sake and their customer,s well being also.


Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #91 on: June 23, 2013, 03:15:19 PM »
Of course not everyone should become tech detective in order to safely buy on ebay or have anti-shilling procedures in place to foil shill bidding. If the seller is too busy to take pictures of every coin they should watermark the words "stock photo" on every pictures and include text in the description that pictured coin is similar in quality to the coin you will receive.  If they don't want their coins to sell to cheap use reserves, high starting prices or buy it now.
Arif

Nice ! Well said Arif ...

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #92 on: June 23, 2013, 03:28:01 PM »
 
I do have an issue with modern coin mart using stock photos or photoshopping.  Their listing specifically says the coin pictured is the coin you will receive.  This isn't junk silver or gold they are selling.  I assume they are making enough money to employ some cheap labor to take pictures and input the actual photos of the coins.
Another … 

Yea so that is the main issue here … Large dealers use “stock” photos for speed and efficiency.

When we look at “photoshopping” of coin images, this takes much longer than using a stock photo, this technique is not done for speed or efficiency, its primary reason is to make a specific coin more marketable, plain and simple.   

Both of these techniques are against Ebay policy and should not be allowed.       

Offline poconopenn

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #93 on: June 23, 2013, 04:46:17 PM »
The buyer (bigvivian1111) of 1984 1 oz gold panda had left a negative feedback (Seller deceptively shaded photo of the coin to hide a black stain on the coin) on 5/6/13.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=mcm&iid=130886997856&de=off&items=25&which=negative&interval=365&_trkparms=negative_365

IMO, the questionable item is related to three-picture listing, as mentioned by birdman (1982 1 oz gold panda genuine 3695648-001). The picture of different NGC slabbed 1982 coin was used and label was photoshopped. The 1990 1/20 oz gold panda mentioned in this thread was not the same; the wrong coin was photoshpped, not the label. IMO, these two examples as well as shill bidding are enough to ask eBay to take action to suspend this seller and to stop this type of deceptive acts.

Reported.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #94 on: June 23, 2013, 04:53:46 PM »
Comeaux,

After reading the Florida law, it would seem that resealing coins to look like OMP would also fall under the definition of a violation.
In my opinion, a Photoshopped image is just a modern-day, software enabled cousin to a resealed coin.

-David

“Buy the coin, not the holder, package or COA.”

They may be cousin, but have different personality.

Resealed package: The coin pictured is the coin you will receive.

Photoshopped NGC encapsulated coin: The coin pictured is NOT the coin you will receive.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #95 on: June 23, 2013, 07:12:05 PM »
Quote from: poconopenn
Resealed package: The coin pictured is the coin you will receive.

Hello poconopenn I think I may only disagree with you only 1 in every 10,000 comments and this is one of those times .

The majority of reputable dealers (excluding MCM), certainly those I have purchased from here on CCF and Ebay as well can always provide the exact NGC cert number of the coin that I am purchasing so that I can see pictures of that coin on NGC website or pictures directly from seller.   

With OMP a person can never really be sure that the OMP coin they have received is exactly the coin that they saw a picture of because OMP is really just a cheap plastic with no traceability numbers on the plastic. It is quite possible that an OMP coin a person purchased may have already been graded, received bad grade so the seller can break coin out of holder and reseal it. I’m not saying this is the case but it’s a possibility. The main thing is you just don’t know any more with all of the counterfeiting and resealing that is going on.     

Offline poconopenn

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2013, 11:16:47 PM »
Hello poconopenn I think I may only disagree with you only 1 in every 10,000 comments and this is one of those times .

The majority of reputable dealers (excluding MCM), certainly those I have purchased from here on CCF and Ebay as well can always provide the exact NGC cert number of the coin that I am purchasing so that I can see pictures of that coin on NGC website or pictures directly from seller.   

With OMP a person can never really be sure that the OMP coin they have received is exactly the coin that they saw a picture of because OMP is really just a cheap plastic with no traceability numbers on the plastic. It is quite possible that an OMP coin a person purchased may have already been graded, received bad grade so the seller can break coin out of holder and reseal it. I’m not saying this is the case but it’s a possibility. The main thing is you just don’t know any more with all of the counterfeiting and resealing that is going on.     


You may misunderstand my posting. Actually, we are in totally agreement. Similar to many of my postings, I wrote “Buy the coin, not the holder, package or COA” at the beginning of this posting. Most knowledgeable collectors in this forum can determine the condition of the coin, as long as the picture is clear and shows the details of the coin. The coin may be in an inferior condition in a resealed package as you suggested, but market will decide the final value of the coin. Most likely, the winner will receive the coin in the picture. However, in the case of photoshopped NGC encapsulated coin, the picture will be clear and detailed, but the coin received is definitely not the same coin in the picture.

As stated in eBay selling policy for coin, the pictures have to show the exact coin received later. The selling of a resealed coin does not violate eBay policy if the picture is clear and the coin is genuine, but selling a graded coin using a photoshopped image is definitely in violating eBay policy.

Offline mazinger7000

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2013, 11:25:30 PM »
the MCM auction for the 1998 gold panda 1 oz coin was won by a guy who has bid on 49 items in the last month and guess what? 100% of them were MCM auctions. guess we'll see that coin for sale again soon.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2013, 11:25:41 PM »
Yes you are correct poconopenn ... I did misunderstand your post but now that I read again I'm in complete agreement

Offline GDG's

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #99 on: June 24, 2013, 06:46:38 AM »
the MCM auction for the 1998 gold panda 1 oz coin was won by a guy who has bid on 49 items in the last month and guess what? 100% of them were MCM auctions. guess we'll see that coin for sale again soon.


MCM auction

The 94 1/4 bi-metallic unicorn was "sold".

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130919120547?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

"winner" h***8( 3 )

30-Day Summary
Total bids:   12
Items bid on:   8
Bid activity (%) with this seller:   75%   
Bid retractions:   2
Bid retractions (6 months):   5

As I said in another post this is a nice coin to own. In fact I do own one in 69. Sure I would have love to seen this go for a huge sum, but I'd hate to see anyone bid against shills. Of course no one can be 100% sure that is the case but the preponderance of evidence is quite strong.




Offline lunar

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #100 on: June 24, 2013, 08:44:54 AM »
This is very strange .
As a big company such as MCM , they rather spend money and the effort to photo-shop the coins and not spending the same money and time to take a photograph of the actual thing.
Interesting company...

Offline panda88

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #101 on: June 24, 2013, 11:30:45 AM »
No one interesting in MCM auction?
The 1987Y  100 yuan was sold $997.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140988411201&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:US:3160

Offline Max Spiegel

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #102 on: June 24, 2013, 12:15:30 PM »
Peter Anthony brought this thread to my attention and I wanted to offer some clarification. NGC does not consider this type of photoshopped or edited image to be acceptable, and we will inform Modern Coin Mart of this. I do not believe that our customer service representative fully understood what had been done, and we will make sure that issues like this are appropriately addressed by our staff in the future.

Many internet sellers use stock photos and in some limited situations it might be necessary to edit a photo of an NGC holder, such as when a new release is being pre-sold. Under no circumstances should this image misrepresent or mislead. Clearly, we need to have a policy in place that defines when a stock photo or edited photo is acceptable, and I welcome all feedback. Anyone is welcome to email me directly at max@ngccoin.com.

I would also like to address the questions about special treatment. No dealer, including Modern Coin Mart, receives preferential grades from NGC. Our graders never know the identify of a submitter. Modern Coin Mart is located near NGC because it allows them to drop off and pick up coins, which reduces the shipping time and expense. In fact, many dealers have relocated to Sarasota because their proximity to NGC results in faster shipping times. (Just type in "Sarasota" into the Dealer Locator on the NGC website to see how many other member dealers are in the area.)

If anyone has any additional questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me.

Regards,
Max Spiegel

 

Max Spiegel
Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC)

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #103 on: June 24, 2013, 12:37:45 PM »
Max,
First: Welcome to the forum.
Second: Thank you for taking the time to address this issue and for soliciting solutions from the community to prevent further problems like this. It is great to see NGC taking action.
As an NGC member, I greatly appreciate the response.
+1

PH

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #104 on: June 24, 2013, 02:02:35 PM »
Hello Max,

I would like to reiterate the message from panda halves as well. I greatly appreciate that you have come to this forum to address the concerns discussed here. 

Also some of the comments made by me in this thread regarding a “perceived” association between NGC and MCM are possibly disproportionate to the reality of relationship.

Since I have always been a very loyal supporter of NGC as well as the Certified Collectibles Group, I was just really disappointed with the initial NGC response. My first thoughts on the initial NGC response influenced me to make some disparaging comments and I apologize for that.

I can say that I have always gotten great service from NGC, NCS, CGC and more recently PMG. In the past you have been extremely beneficial with Modern Chinese Coin variety recognition and personally very helpful to me.

Thanks for looking into the issues with MCM because as I previously stated in this thread … I don’t think it is something positive for NGC as NGC would/should not want to approve of another company modifying “Certified NGC Coins” for the benefit of making them more marketable and at the same time tarnishing the reputation of NGC or The Certified Collectibles Group.

Take Care !

comeaux     

Offline Birdman

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2013, 07:02:20 PM »
No one interesting in MCM auction?
The 1987Y  100 yuan was sold $997.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140988411201&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:US:3160


Interesting, in addition to many Chinese coin collectors on this forum being reluctant to put in strong bids for the MCM auctions because of the issues we discussed, I speculate that this listing fell through the cracks, in part, because the title lacks the keyword "Gold".

"1987Y China G100Y Panda NGC MS 68 Mint State 68 SKU27062"
 
 MCM had another similar coin listed in grade 68 (albeit proof), but it had the keyword "gold" and it sold for a more expected price above bullion.  

"1987-P China 1 oz Gold Panda 100 Yuan NGC PF68 UC Proof 68 Ultra Cameo SKU28580"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-P-China-1-oz-Gold-Panda-100-Yuan-NGC-PF68-UC-Proof-68-Ultra-Cameo-SKU28580-/140991752738?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item20d3c36a22

Indeed, when I searched the finished auctions for MCM this time I typed in "China Gold" and I missed this auction.  It is just a very unextraordinary date/grade that was overlooked among so many listings.  It is amazing somebody didn't at least put a bid in at bullion?  A quick glance at the winning bidder suggests that he is legitimate.  He's also likely very happy.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2013, 07:05:46 PM »
Thanks Max for addressing the concerns ,as an NGC customer it is encouraging to know you are looking into this.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2013, 07:10:19 PM »
Interesting, in addition to many Chinese coin collectors on this forum being reluctant to put in strong bids for the MCM auctions because of the issues we discussed, I speculate that this listing fell through the cracks, in part, because the title lacks the keyword "Gold".

"1987Y China G100Y Panda NGC MS 68 Mint State 68 SKU27062"
 
 MCM had another similar coin listed in grade 68 (albeit proof), but it had the keyword "gold" and it sold for a more expected price above bullion. 

.... It is amazing somebody didn't at least put a bid in at bullion? 


Stranger yet is that apparently four other bidders were in the action from five hundred up, yet nobody bid it up to even close to bullion price.

I could understand if it snuck by everybody, but to have some bidders stop so soon sofar below bullion price?
Is this a sign buyers are putting the brakes on all common date purchases maybe until bullion prices halt their slide?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2013, 07:23:26 PM »
Is this a sign buyers are putting the brakes on all common date purchases maybe until bullion prices halt their slide?


 :thumbup1:

Offline Honus

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2013, 07:43:28 PM »


 :thumbup1:

Hippanda, Comeaux, you guys are having a Twilight-Zone moment here  :001_smile:   That auction was nothing more than a weird anomaly, a market mistake.  I bet people thought for sure it would get sniped, and everyone waited for it to happen, and then nobody blinked, and it ended too low.  If people had a 2nd shot at that auction, you really think it ends at $1000 again??    No, you don't, not unless you're both chugging cough syrup mixed with Schnapps today!     And if anyone disagrees, and believes that the market for common dates (as if "common date" Pandas were any less .999 gold than Maples or other bullion) has shifted downwards to 76% of spot, then I'd like to officially announce that I'm a buyer of all the common date pandas you want to sell me or point me towards, with no buy limit at that price!
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2013, 08:03:24 PM »
Hippanda, Comeaux, you guys are having a Twilight-Zone moment here  :001_smile:   That auction was nothing more than a weird anomaly, a market mistake.  I bet people thought for sure it would get sniped, and everyone waited for it to happen, and then nobody blinked, and it ended too low.  If people had a 2nd shot at that auction, you really think it ends at $1000 again??    No, you don't, not unless you're both chugging cough syrup mixed with Schnapps today!     And if anyone disagrees, and believes that the market for common dates (as if "common date" Pandas were any less .999 gold than Maples or other bullion) has shifted downwards to 76% of spot, then I'd like to officially announce that I'm a buyer of all the common date pandas you want to sell me or point me towards, with no buy limit at that price!
I love that cough syrup  thingy:)   ,I too am a buyer at no limit and I will up the ante 76% of spot plus $100 :) ,but if the truth be known I would not look or bid on an MCM auction............:)

Offline Hippanda

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #111 on: June 24, 2013, 08:11:15 PM »
Hippanda, Comeaux, you guys are having a Twilight-Zone moment here  :001_smile:   That auction was nothing more than a weird anomaly, a market mistake.  I bet people thought for sure it would get sniped, and everyone waited for it to happen, and then nobody blinked, and it ended too low.  If people had a 2nd shot at that auction, you really think it ends at $1000 again??    No, you don't, not unless you're both chugging cough syrup mixed with Schnapps today!     And if anyone disagrees, and believes that the market for common dates (as if "common date" Pandas were any less .999 gold than Maples or other bullion) has shifted downwards to 76% of spot, then I'd like to officially announce that I'm a buyer of all the common date pandas you want to sell me or point me towards, with no buy limit at that price!

Cough syrup - yum !

Seriously, of course you and I and members here would have snapped it up for closer to spot if we'd seen it - the point is there were others who didn't and gave up way too early, unless it was a weird anomaly like you said, or maybe they had fear Bullion's rapid drop could continue and allow them to buy bullion that cheap or cheaper some time in the future.

Or another possibility is a certain seller's DSB  " Designated Shill Bidder" with 4 shill accounts maybe hit the cough syrup himself and was out stone cold during the closing hours of that sale?   :001_rolleyes:
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Honus

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #112 on: June 24, 2013, 08:31:34 PM »
Lol, i like that explanation Hippanda!!
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #113 on: June 24, 2013, 08:35:30 PM »
Hippanda, Comeaux, you guys are having a Twilight-Zone moment here
:thumbup:

but if the truth be known I would not look or bid on an MCM auction

yea I didn’t see this particular coin but I’m with you JC, I had a few bids in on MCM coins but since the recent shenanigans I ceased bidding and skipped on all of the MCM coins.

Or another possibility is a certain seller's DSB  " Designated Shill Bidder" with 4 shill accounts maybe hit the cough syrup himself and was out stone cold during the closing hours of that sale?

yep ... the DSB was definitely sleeping and actually let a real buyer make a purchase !

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #114 on: June 24, 2013, 09:01:39 PM »
MCM has auctioned nice coins in the past and has the capability of being a very well-run, reputable company … I would like to buy from them again because they do have good prices but buying from them right now with their recent chicanery would just continue to support their current modus operandi … I’m with JC and others, I refuse to do it.

Getting nice coins at good prices is great but morals need to also be considered as well. Besides there are other members here at CCF with coins just as nice or better with great prices too.

On a side note I took a break today from bullion and MCC … decided to pick up 1,000 shares of SLV at $19 which is an ETF that trades close to silver spot.

I’m thinking worse case downside from here is about $15 or $16 but I’m hoping within the next year or two to unload it at about $35 to $40




Offline Birdman

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #116 on: June 25, 2013, 12:35:30 PM »
MCM has changed its listing of  MCC from auction style to BIN style. This is one way to address the shill bidding problem.

Completed listings in last 15 days.


http://www.ebay.com/sch/China-/40712/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=40712&_okw=&_oexkw=&_adv=1&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=200&_fpos=&_fsct=&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_fss=1&_fsradio=%26LH_SpecificSeller%3D1&_saslop=1&_sasl=mcm&_sop=13&_dmd=1&_ipg=50


Current active listings

http://www.ebay.com/dsc/China-/40712/i.html?_sadis=200&_sasl=mcm&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_fss=1&_from=R40&_samihi=&_fpos=&_fsradio=%26LH_SpecificSeller%3D1&_oexkw=&_sop=13&_nkw=&_okw=&_fsct=&_ipg=50&LH_TitleDesc=1&_saslop=1&_samilow=&_udhi=&_ftrt=901&_sabdhi=&_udlo=&_ftrv=1&_sabdlo=&_adv=1&_dmd=1&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw


They do seem to be making some changes, although they still have several auctions.

http://www.ebay.com/dsc/China-/40712/i.html?_sadis=200&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_sasl=mcm&_fss=1&_from=R40&_samihi=&_fpos=&_oexkw=&_fsradio=%26LH_SpecificSeller%3D1&_sop=13&_nkw=&_okw=&_fsct=&_ipg=50&LH_TitleDesc=1&_saslop=1&_samilow=&_udhi=&_ftrt=901&_sabdhi=&_udlo=&_ftrv=1&_sabdlo=&_adv=1&_dmd=1&LH_Auction=1

Isn't that still a stock photo NGC# for the currently listed 1997 gold panda?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1997-China-1-oz-Gold-Panda-100-Yuan-Small-Date-NGC-MS69-Mint-State-69-SKU28579-/130919650852?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1e7b6b5624

From my perspective as a buyer, I like a 99 cent auction format, as it can lead to some deals in a soft market, so I would encourage them to work on developing a transparent and clean auction process.  If they are unable to do that, however, I suppose a BIN format is the next best step.  It would eliminate that yucky feeling one gets when you win an auction (pleased), but then check the bidding details and see that several bidders below you are suspicious and you realize that you probably paid more for your item than you would have paid in a fair auction.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #117 on: June 25, 2013, 12:45:39 PM »

On a side note I took a break today from bullion and MCC … decided to pick up 1,000 shares of SLV at $19 which is an ETF that trades close to silver spot.

I’m thinking worse case downside from here is about $15 or $16 but I’m hoping within the next year or two to unload it at about $35 to $40




Most ETFs related to commodity are backed by the future contracts. It does involve a carry charge. The fund has to roll over the future contracts every quarter. Fortunately, the carry charge for silver future contract is relatively low. Future contract expired on July 2015 is $19.95 vs. spot $19.50. In other words, the future traders do not expect silver will make any significant move in the next two years and will drop further in short term. Good luck.

Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #118 on: June 25, 2013, 01:46:46 PM »
Most ETFs related to commodity are backed by the future contracts. It does involve a carry charge. The fund has to roll over the future contracts every quarter. Fortunately, the carry charge for silver future contract is relatively low. Future contract expired on July 2015 is $19.95 vs. spot $19.50. In other words, the future traders do not expect silver will make any significant move in the next two years and will drop further in short term. Good luck.

Thanks for info poconopenn … looks like it may be a good idea that I used wifey’s account for this purchase  :thumbup:

Offline GDG's

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #119 on: June 25, 2013, 07:42:26 PM »
CEO MCM John Maben

"Reputation and credentials in the online coin business are in a word, EVERYTHING"

"We invite inquiries"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTDrYmv-taA

Offline jc888888888

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #120 on: June 25, 2013, 08:01:57 PM »
Very quite MCM is...................

Offline Birdman

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2013, 07:49:13 AM »
MCM has changed its listing of  MCC from auction style to BIN style. This is one way to address the shill bidding problem.

Completed listings in last 15 days.


http://www.ebay.com/sch/China-/40712/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=40712&_okw=&_oexkw=&_adv=1&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=200&_fpos=&_fsct=&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_fss=1&_fsradio=%26LH_SpecificSeller%3D1&_saslop=1&_sasl=mcm&_sop=13&_dmd=1&_ipg=50


Current active listings

http://www.ebay.com/dsc/China-/40712/i.html?_sadis=200&_sasl=mcm&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_fss=1&_from=R40&_samihi=&_fpos=&_fsradio=%26LH_SpecificSeller%3D1&_oexkw=&_sop=13&_nkw=&_okw=&_fsct=&_ipg=50&LH_TitleDesc=1&_saslop=1&_samilow=&_udhi=&_ftrt=901&_sabdhi=&_udlo=&_ftrv=1&_sabdlo=&_adv=1&_dmd=1&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw

They do seem to be making some changes, although they still have several auctions.

http://www.ebay.com/dsc/China-/40712/i.html?_sadis=200&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_sasl=mcm&_fss=1&_from=R40&_samihi=&_fpos=&_oexkw=&_fsradio=%26LH_SpecificSeller%3D1&_sop=13&_nkw=&_okw=&_fsct=&_ipg=50&LH_TitleDesc=1&_saslop=1&_samilow=&_udhi=&_ftrt=901&_sabdhi=&_udlo=&_ftrv=1&_sabdlo=&_adv=1&_dmd=1&LH_Auction=1

Isn't that still a stock photo NGC# for the currently listed 1997 gold panda?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1997-China-1-oz-Gold-Panda-100-Yuan-Small-Date-NGC-MS69-Mint-State-69-SKU28579-/130919650852?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1e7b6b5624

From my perspective as a buyer, I like a 99 cent auction format, as it can lead to some deals in a soft market, so I would encourage them to work on developing a transparent and clean auction process.  If they are unable to do that, however, I suppose a BIN format is the next best step.  It would eliminate that yucky feeling one gets when you win an auction (pleased), but then check the bidding details and see that several bidders below you are suspicious and you realize that you probably paid more for your item than you would have paid in a fair auction.

I don't wish to stir up additional conversation on this topic (we've probably had too much discussion of negative topics).  I do, however, want to log for the permanent record this auction that ended a week after the auctions that were the subject of active discussion and the multiple reports to eBay.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=130919650852

1997 China 1 oz Gold Panda 100 Yuan Small Date NGC MS69 Mint State 69 SKU28579
Ended:   Jun 28, 201317:04:29 PDT
Winning bid:   US $2,098.00   [ 21 bids ]

----------------
Bidder                                Bid Amount                      Bid Time

Member Id: b***r( 339)     US $2,098.00                    Jun-28-13 17:04:22 PDT
Member Id: n***s( 31)    US $2,073.00                   Jun-28-13 12:09:30 PDT
Member Id: d***t( 104)      US $1,999.99                   Jun-28-13 07:28:49 PDT
Member Id: d***t( 104)      US $1,888.80                   Jun-26-13 11:05:34 PDT
...

-------------------
Bid retraction and cancellation history

Bidder                              Action                                      Date of Bid and Retraction
Member Id: n***s( 31)     Retracted: US $2,100.00            Bid: Jun-28-13 12:05:12 PDT     
                                                                                       Retracted: Jun-28-13 12:08:57 PDT

----------------
n***s( 31)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 4
Items bid on: 3
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 100%   
Bid retractions: 1
Bid retractions (6 months): 10

Again, no need to continue the conversation, but it appears that despite the flurry of communication to the key parties, we will still need to be vigilant and aware in our bidding.

Offline Thor122

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #122 on: October 20, 2013, 12:09:48 AM »
Most ETFs related to commodity are backed by the future contracts. It does involve a carry charge. The fund has to roll over the future contracts every quarter. Fortunately, the carry charge for silver future contract is relatively low. Future contract expired on July 2015 is $19.95 vs. spot $19.50. In other words, the future traders do not expect silver will make any significant move in the next two years and will drop further in short term. Good luck.

Silver (slv) and gold (gld) etfs teorically is backed with the metal and not roll out futures. A lot of discussion in internet.
Is better pslv And phys backed really good metals and sprott.
Sorry for the off topic.


Offline comeaux

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Re: This is very strange ???
« Reply #123 on: April 03, 2019, 10:09:08 PM »
Fun times !!!   :w00t: