Author Topic: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.  (Read 5081 times)

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Offline Yandy1990

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Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« on: May 27, 2013, 06:03:00 PM »
Recently, I have tried to buy a rare silver coin from a "reputable" forum member. He posted in this group to sell two separate coins with two separated prices. I PM'ed him with an offer for one of the coins and he accepted it. He gave me his email for payment, and the NEXT day, I paid in Paypal. He refunded my payment on the same day with a note saying that he thought I didn't want the coin so he decided not to sell. I sent him a PM telling him that it's a lame excuse, and if he doesn't want to sell, let me know. He replied and said what he really meant was that he wanted to sell the two coins together with a much higher price (so he can upgrade to another rare coin), so he decide not to sell.

OK, my understanding for any good seller is that once a deal is made, the seller has the obligation to honor the deal. I'm relatively new here but I did buy from a number of members here including Clark Smith and Blue Jay, and I never had this problem. How can I trust this member in the future that a done deal is actually a done deal.

Andy

Offline GoldMedal

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2013, 08:04:07 PM »
His ID?

Offline comeaux

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2013, 10:48:00 PM »
Although I don’t know who is involved here … I’ll offer my opinion.

We’ve probably all had remorse from the buyer and seller side, I know that I have experienced this remorse on occasion and all people are different but when I make a deal it’s a deal after both have agreed on a price.

While I’m sure that it’s disappointing to have the seller back out on the deal … it’s not like he ripped you off. He returned all of your money in good faith so that’s at least a positive.

There is not a positive situation that will come out of this transaction if you expose the CCF member, it’s probably better to let it rest … if he would have kept your money that would be a completely different story. It’s best if you just avoid this particular seller in the future. 

All things happen for a reason … this deal was obviously not meant to be so hopefully you will be blessed to eventually find these identical coins in better condition for same or lower price.

Good luck !    :001_smile:

Offline GoldMedal

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2013, 10:57:05 PM »
Although I don’t know who is involved here … I’ll offer my opinion.

We’ve probably all had remorse from the buyer and seller side, I know that I have experienced this remorse on occasion and all people are different but when I make a deal it’s a deal after both have agreed on a price.

While I’m sure that it’s disappointing to have the seller back out on the deal … it’s not like he ripped you off. He returned all of your money in good faith so that’s at least a positive.

There is not a positive situation that will come out of this transaction if you expose the CCF member, it’s probably better to let it rest … if he would have kept your money that would be a completely different story. It’s best if you just avoid this particular seller in the future. 

All things happen for a reason … this deal was obviously not meant to be so hopefully you will be blessed to eventually find these identical coins in better condition for same or lower price.

Good luck !    :001_smile:


hmm...

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2013, 11:32:14 PM »
Although I don’t know who is involved here … I’ll offer my opinion.

We’ve probably all had remorse from the buyer and seller side, I know that I have experienced this remorse on occasion and all people are different but when I make a deal it’s a deal after both have agreed on a price.

While I’m sure that it’s disappointing to have the seller back out on the deal … it’s not like he ripped you off. He returned all of your money in good faith so that’s at least a positive.

There is not a positive situation that will come out of this transaction if you expose the CCF member, it’s probably better to let it rest … if he would have kept your money that would be a completely different story. It’s best if you just avoid this particular seller in the future. 

All things happen for a reason … this deal was obviously not meant to be so hopefully you will be blessed to eventually find these identical coins in better condition for same or lower price.

Good luck !    :001_smile:


Well-spoken Comeaux!!!  Serves no constructive purpose to divulge member involved. I agree, please put it to bed.

Offline Straitssettlementshop

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2013, 06:06:29 AM »
Technically the seller is not wrong but morally he is.

Offline bonke

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2013, 09:19:18 AM »
An opinion from a small collector. 

This coin forum is growing as an alternate site for buyers and sellers of modern Chinese coins and medals.  As such, it is critical to "police" the site, fully disclosing problems which occur and the members who cause the problems.  Without this policing, it is no longer a viable option.

If I am involved in a transaction and if my conduct is possibly suspect or inappropriate, disclose this information to members.  Clearly identify me (by my real name and my forum name).  Then, other forum members will know that it is inappropriate to deal with me in the future. 

Mark Bonke

Offline Honus

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2013, 09:42:52 AM »
An opinion from a small collector. 

This coin forum is growing as an alternate site for buyers and sellers of modern Chinese coins and medals.  As such, it is critical to "police" the site, fully disclosing problems which occur and the members who cause the problems.  Without this policing, it is no longer a viable option.

If I am involved in a transaction and if my conduct is possibly suspect or inappropriate, disclose this information to members.  Clearly identify me (by my real name and my forum name).  Then, other forum members will know that it is inappropriate to deal with me in the future. 

Mark Bonke

That's a very strong stance Mark....almost sounds like one strike and you're out.   If the seller in this instance had taken the money and skipped town, I would absolutely agree.  But I think we all make mistakes, whether a mistake in how we structure a listing, or how we word it, or simply realizing after the fact that you don't want to lose the coin, etc.   I'm not defending the seller's actions, but needing a one-time mulligan shouldn't cause a small-time seller (that's what most people here are, rather than large dealers) to be permanently ostracized, and publishing their name and ID may result in exactly that.    And the other side of this is, if you "force" the seller to deliver and disallow even a single mulligan, you create a "too bad for you, your loss" mentality and I don't think that's the kind of environment people want here either.  Again, not defending the seller, but I think there's more value in encouraging the buyer to be the bigger person and show understanding, than to force the seller to suffer his error, so to speak.  Would I give 10 mulligans, no of course not.  But 1 mulligan, yeah everybody may need one every now and again.
Eric Liquori
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Offline sasushi

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2013, 11:44:27 AM »
Hello

I was the seller - I made a mistake and I excused myself already to Andrew (before he wrote his text). My Intension was upgrading through selling/trading all three coins to rarer coin. Since it seemed I only could sell the tibet coin I pulled back. I wanted to upgrade and not earn cash.

Now what is happening - Andrew is trying to present me as not reputable seller or whatever....he is putting public pressure onto me (he desribed the case so well - it is easy to identify me as seller)....and that seems fine.......

He named me a tricky person (in the PM).....what kind of trick was it ???

Thats all folks. Maybe its better to sell only on Ebay or Heritage etc. since there a clear rules and your reputation is solid.

I wanted to put my opinion earlier here - due to work I wasn t able (I am a small collector - no dealer). Somehow its sad how people react.

Regards

Sasushi

Offline Yandy1990

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2013, 12:53:47 PM »

Thank you all for the responses. I'm a small time collector and relatively new here. I was afraid that this could be a "country club" where I would be dismissed by the inner circle guys. But I'm happy it does give an open platform.

I think this reply probably summarized it  "Technically the seller is not wrong but morally he is."

I also agree that we all make mistakes and we should give people chances if they were honest mistakes.

As for this seller, it is clear from his response that he felt he is actually the victim of my action (or at least he presented it that way in his response). That speaks volume about whom I'm dealing with, so I will not buy from him in the future because it doesn't worth it regardless how good the deal is.

Happy collecting....

Andy

Offline sasushi

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2013, 01:14:05 PM »
Recently, I have tried to buy a rare silver coin from a "reputable" forum member. He posted in this group to sell two separate coins with two separated prices. I PM'ed him with an offer for one of the coins and he accepted it. He gave me his email for payment, and the NEXT day, I paid in Paypal. He refunded my payment on the same day with a note saying that he thought I didn't want the coin so he decided not to sell. I sent him a PM telling him that it's a lame excuse, and if he doesn't want to sell, let me know. He replied and said what he really meant was that he wanted to sell the two coins together with a much higher price (so he can upgrade to another rare coin), so he decide not to sell.

OK, my understanding for any good seller is that once a deal is made, the seller has the obligation to honor the deal. I'm relatively new here but I did buy from a number of members here including Clark Smith and Blue Jay, and I never had this problem. How can I trust this member in the future that a done deal is actually a done deal.

Andy

You named me a ("reputable member") questioning me having bad manners (title) and then you describe it so clear that everybody can locate me (He posted in this group to sell two separate coins with two separated prices).

Andy - how would you describe your acting?

Offline Honus

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 01:25:25 PM »
Sasushi, in my last post I wrote about giving mulligans, whereby we forgive an honest error and move on, especially when there is no money lost and no cost beyond lost time and inconvenience.   We all make mistakes - if i were a seller and in your shoes, I'd probably want a mulligan.  But it goes both ways - Andy also gets a mulligan, because he can surely be forgiven for being a little frustrated and annoyed, and nobody can blame him for wanting to vent some of that frustration.   Some of that frustration may reflect on you, and I'm sure Andy's goal isn't to see your reputation damaged, I'm sure he was just frustrated, as we all might be.  So you can give him a mulligan for venting, even if that venting was on the forum, and hinted at identifying you.   

This is one of those situations that is unfortunate...it's unfortunate that you weren't able to complete the transaction, but fortunate that no money was exchanged.  And it's unfortunate that Andy suffered some inconvenience, but I'm sure he knows that in the bigger picture of life, this is really small potatoes.   If he's "acting" in any way, it's simply as a frustrated person, which is understandable.  At the end of the day, both of you are important contributing members of the forum, and I would not hesitate to transact with either of you.  Sometimes transactions can get messed up, but in this case I think a virtual shaking of hands and calling truce may be in order. 
Eric Liquori
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www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 02:15:16 PM »
Over the past few months here, I have bought and sold numerous coins here, all of which were "small-ticket items," under $700 dollars. I have very strong feelings about what it takes to have integrity as a seller and a buyer. I have 200+ positive feedbacks from transactions on another forum, and on that other forum, even ONE negative feedback is enough to lose your credibility as a seller. Here are a few thoughts:

1) If a seller lists a price publicly and a buyer accepts for that price, a binding contract is made that must be honored. (One time I listed a coin on here for about $150-200 dollars too low and it sold very quickly. I realized by how quickly it sold, that I had not asked for enough $$, yet I honored the price I listed it for because that is what a seller with integrity MUST do.)

2) A seller must be SPECIFIC about all terms of the deal that is being closed. When thousands of dollars are changing hands, there is no room for miscommunication. No $$ should change hands before the terms of the deal are understood by both parties involved. To send the $$ so quickly before both parties are in full agreement is setting yourself up for disappointment or fraud.

3) Communication is key. If one person in the transaction has a change of heart, or wants to change the terms of a deal, that person should talk/request/ask with the other member to see whether a change in terms is allowable. It is perfectly reasonable to decline this request, because as mentioned above, when a deal is made it is a binding contract. I have been the victim of a member backing out of a deal due to "changing circumstances" that I was not informed about, and lost $500 worth of value because of it. I chalked it up to a learning experience, but this really should never have happened. The $$ cannot and should not be more important than the integrity of the buyer or the seller.

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 03:41:49 PM »
.   

This is one of those situations that is unfortunate...it's unfortunate that you weren't able to complete the transaction, but fortunate that no money was exchanged.  And it's unfortunate that Andy suffered some inconvenience, but I'm sure he knows that in the bigger picture of life, this is really small potatoes.   If he's "acting" in any way, it's simply as a frustrated person, which is understandable.  At the end of the day, both of you are important contributing members of the forum, and I would not hesitate to transact with either of you.  Sometimes transactions can get messed up, but in this case I think a virtual shaking of hands and calling truce may be in order. 


YEP, small potatoes indeed! It's always best to be a little frustrated and upset for only a short period of time. Please "shake hands", and move-on. There was no bodily injury, no money was lost, and no one got sick over this matter. I respect both positions, however, it is time to move-on in a positive light. Thank you.

Offline sasushi

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Re: Is this a bad practice by the seller or is it a norm.
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 03:54:35 PM »
Honus, Mirkkanen, Pandaguy you are right.

@Andy Shakehands - sorry for that.

Regards
Sasushi