Topic: Rewrapped Pandas

[badon]

Although I agree in principle, the adage that one bad apple spoils the bunch is true even in China. Chinese culture has long been tolerant of fraud, and if one business engages in fraud, it can quickly consume the entire market in the zero sum game of the cul-de-sac of Asia if the other businesses do not do it themselves.

[comeaux]

It is NOT honest to reseal coins. PERIOD.  Stop defending this nonsense.... I too have had an overall good experience with this seller and yes, if confronted he will confess that a particular item may have been resealed..... the fact that he doesn't initially disclose which items may or may not have been resealed is in itself a dishonest practice.... there is no such thing as random, selective 'honesty'.

I completely agree ...

Coinslinger I applaud you as one of the only large dealers who has publicly conveyed honestly what many feel about this topic but have not said publicly, only through PM.

I have said many times as well, I have no problem with Xu at all, only the practice of resealing coins and the buyer not being informed unless he asks if the coin has been resealed.

I understand that from what many Chinese members on this forum say, the Chinese do not care about resealed coins, do not like graded coins and do not trust NGC. I completely understand this.

With this thought in mind, would I be out of line and an unscrupulous seller if I busted out some 67’s and 68’s then resealed them and sold them on ebay to Chinese customers without disclosing resealing unless asked?

This is s serious question and I am in no way attempting to upset anyone but if Chinese buyers only care about owning the coin and do not have faith in NGC grading, why would they care if I reseal a 67 graded coin if they do not have trust in grading companies and buy resealed coins without issue? They may think NGC’s 67 is a phenomenal coin ?

I have busted out quite a few coins without issue at all so I know I would not damage the coin and I would not be “baking” them or taking them out of OMP to “wash” the silver coins. All I would be doing is removing them from their holder, put in capsule and reseal them.

I am in no way saying I am doing this or would do it … I’m just curious IF I would do this what would be so different than what is currently being done by certain sellers? 

Cheers !       

[Underbidder]

That is absolutely two of the best posts on the subject, no wait make it three including Comeaux, Coinslinger and Badon.

Well put.

[SANDAC]

For me a raw coin means "caveat emptor".  It doesn't matter to me whether it was OMP, resealed, or resealed after busting out of a TPG holder.  It is all the same and should be treated as such.  I don't for a moment believe that OMP represents the average condition of the coin as it comes out of the mint.  Just consider this very normal scenerio:  I have a sheet of 10 coins.  I examine them, then pick out the best ones to sent to NGC/PCGS.  I sell the rest of them as OMP.  That's pass #1.  On pass #2, the individually OMP-wrapped coins are collected and examined.  Naturally I keep the best one and sell off the worst one.  Onward to pass #3...   This is similar to the so-called "unsearched roll of quarters" straight from the bank vault.  It maybe unsearched after they've entered bank's coin counting machine, but they were searched many many times before getting there.  So the pre-1964 silver quarters are already plucked out and the "unsearched roll" does not represent the average quarter population at all.   No, OMP, same as raw coin, does not represent the average.  On day one, possibly, but 20 years later?

[comeaux]

For me a raw coin means "caveat emptor".  It doesn't matter to me whether it was OMP, resealed, or resealed after busting out of a TPG holder.  It is all the same and should be treated as such.  I don't for a moment believe that OMP represents the average condition of the coin as it comes out of the mint.  Just consider this very normal scenerio:  I have a sheet of 10 coins.  I examine them, then pick out the best ones to sent to NGC/PCGS.  I sell the rest of them as OMP.  That's pass #1.  On pass #2, the individually OMP-wrapped coins are collected and examined.  Naturally I keep the best one and sell off the worst one.  Onward to pass #3...   This is similar to the so-called "unsearched roll of quarters" straight from the bank vault.  It maybe unsearched after they've entered bank's coin counting machine, but they were searched many many times before getting there.  So the pre-1964 silver quarters are already plucked out and the "unsearched roll" does not represent the average quarter population at all.   No, OMP, same as raw coin, does not represent the average.  On day one, possibly, but 20 years later?

Thanks for your response …       

Seriously Sandac? … you are saying if I buy a coin from a reputable dealer that is sold as “OMP” that I should accept it as “BUYER BEWARE” ??? … SERIOUSLY ??? 

No disrespect at all to you but I amiably disagree. 

As a buyer/collector I have the right to expect that a reputable dealer who is selling me a set of Pagodas, Goldfish or Pandas, etc as “OMP”, that these coins are indeed sealed in their original seal/packaging as the day they were minted. Anything less is NOT OMP.

If these “OMP” coins I am buying have been previously submitted for grading, graded very low and then busted out of their holder, then I am being scammed if they are sold as OMP. There is a HUGE difference in value.

The same thing applies if these same “OMP” coins have been removed from their original seal and “baked”, “washed” or any other cosmetics and then resealed and sold as “OMP”.

I don’t think there is one reputable dealer who will come on this forum right now and tell me that busting out my 67’s or 68’s and resealing them to be sold as “OMP” is an honest way of dealing coins.

If that is the case and there is nothing wrong with it then the coin collecting world is going in the wrong direction.

I want to believe that dealers would not stoop to this level to make a profit.

So I guess in your opinion I can remove all of my low grade coins from their holders, reseal them and sell them to anyone and that is fine with you?

Maybe if it is no problem to the Chinese buyers I may pursue this avenue, they see no problem with it, I can unload coins that I don't want and they will be happy just getting the coins they want.

Maybe it's a "win win" for us all !  

[SANDAC]

This is just my opinion, when it comes to raw coins which in my mind include OMP, resealed, and unsealed coins, the reputation and gurantee of the seller is paramount, especially so if I can't examine the product in person.  So I certainly won't deal with seller who knowingly acts in an unethical manner.   OMPer would disagree with me here, but having established the reputation of a seller, I don't really care whether a seller reseal a coin or not as long as it is backed up with the same gurantee.  It is no different than the shrink wrap machine at the back of many retailers repairing torn packages and resell them as new.  It doesn't matter to me as long as it looks new, nothing missing, and is guranteed like the new one.  OK, so I don't mind reseal, but the seller doesn't just serve me only, he has to serve the OMPer as well, so he should and must change his labelling practice to satisfy the other customers.  I'm an interested observer, not because I personally believe the quality of product has changed, but the response of a seller to the demand of his customers says a great deal about his characters and integrity.  I'm satisfied with what I've observed.  I'm confident the particular seller will no longer sell resealed coin without explicit labelling, and thanks to the active discussion on this forum, the future sellers will also learn to label their coins appropriately.

[Underbidder]

...the response of a seller to the demand of his customers says a great deal about his characters and integrity.  I'm satisfied with what I've observed.  I'm confident the particular seller will no longer sell resealed coin without explicit labelling, and thanks to the active discussion on this forum, the future sellers will also learn to label their coins appropriately.

What changes have you seen?  Did I miss it, did particular seller state no more reseals without labeling as such?

I am glad to hear your stand on the correctness of disclosure.

[SANDAC]

Yes, it is posted on their website.

Welcome back, BTW.  I always enjoy reading your frank, unvarnished discussion.

[Underbidder]

Yes, it is posted on their website.

Welcome back, BTW.  I always enjoy reading your frank, unvarnished discussion.

Thanks. 

I just wish they'd post it on the auction description too, like they disclose that the item may not be the one in the photo.

[comeaux]

Sandac & Underbidder thanks  for the open and honest feedback … greatly appreciated.

Based on what you are saying and what has been conveyed by most of the Chinese Community here on the forum, I will more than likely “reseal” some 67’s and 68’s for sales to China.

From what I have read here, the Chinese buyers are perfectly fine with it and I am unloading unwanted inventory so basically helping myself as well as Chinese customers !

I will break even or profit on these coins and the Chinese customers will get coins they are accustomed to getting anyway so as I said, everyone wins !!! 

Thanks     

[badon]

I don't for a moment believe that OMP represents the average condition of the coin as it comes out of the mint.  Just consider this very normal scenerio:  I have a sheet of 10 coins.  I examine them, then pick out the best ones to sent to NGC/PCGS.  I sell the rest of them as OMP.  That's pass #1.  On pass #2, the individually OMP-wrapped coins are collected and examined.  Naturally I keep the best one and sell off the worst one.  Onward to pass #3...   This is similar to the so-called "unsearched roll of quarters" straight from the bank vault.  It maybe unsearched after they've entered bank's coin counting machine, but they were searched many many times before getting there.  So the pre-1964 silver quarters are already plucked out and the "unsearched roll" does not represent the average quarter population at all.   No, OMP, same as raw coin, does not represent the average.  On day one, possibly, but 20 years later?

Very good way to put it, SANDAC. Previously, the big money was in the 69's. Now dealers are looking for 70's. The entire supply of some popular, rare coins that sell for large premiums in 69 grades has probably been thoroughly searched. Now, more common coins are getting thoroughly searched.

I have noticed myself that, a few years ago, if the NGC grading stats said 4 out of 5 coins earned a 69 grade, I could go buy any random pile of OMP coins, and 4 out of 5 were good enough to come back in a 69 grade. Now, for some coins, that ratio has reduced, and I have to "cull" out the damaged coins before I send them to NGC if I still want to get 4 out of 5 in a 69 grade.

It's all because of Gresham's law, applied to numismatics: the damaged coins continue to circulate from one "lottery ticket" buyer to another, while the nice coins end up in a 69 or 70 holder, and end up in someone's family heirloom collection forever.

That's why the Chinese auctions are showing high prices and large numbers of NGC graded coins. There are picky people, and there are average people. The picky people pay big bucks for high grade NGC coins, and the average people will take whatever they can get for the cheapest price. That is true in the West and the East.

[Lightsview]

Hi guys, saw this auction on ebay and I was wondering if this is a rewrapped panda? Obviously, it isn't a proof panda as stated by the seller 

http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/380391514204?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

[Pandagongzi]

I have seen 94SD in Guobao package.  Did I find a new variety or it's a reseal?

[chinarares]

in China,we trust all the coins issued before 2000 as not good in condition, when they are in double seal.

[poconopenn]

in China,we trust all the coins issued before 2000 as not good in condition, when they are in double seal.

Yes, in resealed package, but not in genuine original double sealed package.