Author Topic: Rewrapped Pandas  (Read 31203 times)

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Offline comeaux

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2011, 08:19:02 AM »
I can understand why the Chinese collectors want their coins double sealed, I would tend to believe that to them, it substantiates that the coin is pristine in OMP and never been handled. I believe that anyone (regardless of race) wants double sealed Chinese pandas for the same reason . This is the same reason that I would buy a double sealed coin, I am too hoping it is in the OMP so that I know I have a better chance at receiving a coin that will either grade well or maintain a high value as it is in OMP and also be authentic.

Recently with coins appearing on the market that have been ‘resealed” it really has me concerned that coins are being resealed for one main purpose and that is to deceive the buyer, to make him believe he is buying a coin in OMP. I honestly feel that these coins are being resealed because they have not graded well and this is one way for a dealer to recoup his money on a low grade coin.

A Chinese dealer who has recently come under some scrutiny because of this practice has me just slightly concerned. If he conveys to the buyer that the coin has been resealed before selling it then I feel that is a straight-up and honest deal which I have seen him do however there are many instances whereas he has sold resealed coins without acknowledging to buyers that they are resealed, in fact from what I have seen he did not start noting that a coin is resealed until his practice of doing so was questioned. Although there are very reputable members here on CCB who have had great success with him, that may be due to the fact that they also do a lot of business with this particular seller. It is possible that the smaller buyer or newbie may not get the same treatment, this is a possibility.

I did buy from this seller a few of the recently released 2011 Commemorative Pandas as soon as they were minted and feel I got a good deal on these. Then I bought a pair of 1995 Large Twig & Small Twig Pandas for $258, sent them for grading and they both came back MS67. I then bought two more of the identical coins from him for the same price and sent them in for grading in which one came back MS67 & the other “authenticity unverifiable”. I then bought five half ounce 1995 “small dates” and sent them in for grading in which one came back MS69 and the others MS68.

I do realize that these particular 1995 coins do not grade well but I subsequently decided to go back to a place that I have purchased over a hundred sealed pandas with extremely high success, paid the usual slightly higher premium for both the 1995 small & large twig, sent them for grading and finally got two MS69 coins for this year. 

I would have never questioned this seller before but now since the surfacing of this “repackaging” practice or “COINGATE” it does have me curious as to what exactly is going on and if in fact I did receive OMP coins or repackaged coins. In my opinion ANYONE selling a coin that has been repackaged has an obligation to the buyer/public to state clearly in large bold lettering that “THIS COIN HAS BEEN REPACKAGED AND IS NOT IN ITS ORIGINAL MINT SEAL”, in doing so it would be much more honest and ethical as a seller.

I am not here to accuse this seller as a fraud because I know reputable people here who have gotten honest deals from him and he does have very nice items. It is very possible that the coins I did purchase from him were in OMP but I also have a slight bit of doubt now.  In my case, from what I have seen, read and experienced, I will just choose other sellers who have not been known to sell repackaged coins without communicating that to the buyer. 

This has nothing to do with Chinese or American either, it has everything to do with trust regardless of nationality. I have simply chosen to abstain from buying coins where there is a possibility that I may get a resealed coin.     

Once a person has tarnished his reputation, it is hard to get that good reputation back.    

Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2011, 04:30:28 PM »
For what it's worth, I don't think this seller has his coins resealed anymore, due to the backlash experienced here. Keep in mind also that the reseal job was done by the mint, so is technically genuine. Your best bet is to ask for "grading quality" coins, regardless of whether it has a seal or not. Alternatively, you can buy coins that are already graded.

For some coins, so many of the best specimens have already been sent for grading that it is becoming difficult to find sealed coins (genuine seals or not) that are good enough to earn a 68 or 69 grade. In those cases, you might be better off just buying a coin that's already been conserved and graded.

Part of the reason this seller deals in graded coins now is because many people correctly place more faith in an NGC grade than they do in a plastic wrapper of unknown authenticity. When buyers are answering the question "which tells you more about a coin?", the NGC grade is almost always chosen instead of the plastic wrapper.

This is why I changed my opinion about supposedly "original" mint packaging versus graded coins. Ever since then, I have bought the nicest graded coins I could get, without factoring in the value of packaging, if it comes with it. I never complain if the accessories are included for free though :)

Offline comeaux

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2011, 05:42:23 PM »
Badon I have always agreed with you about NGC grading verses OMP but I still prefer to buy my own raw coins and get them graded myself.

Except in very few cases such as the one I mentioned earlier I have done extremely well with raw coins in OMP. I do agree that there are some coins (very few) that I will just go ahead and get NGC graded right away instead of taking a chance and have to submit several of the higher value coins to get a 69.

I still believe there are many raw coins left in OMP that are capable of getting high grades. I just recently bought large and small date pandas of 1990, 1991, 1992 & 1993 for excellent prices and out of these 8 coins I got seven MS69’s so at this point there is no reason for me to stray away from my current strategy.

This aside from the fact that about 90% of my pandas are NGC graded, I still plan on keeping the other 10% in their OMP since they are in phenomenal condition and I also have several duplicates of them NGC graded already.

After a second thought and what others have told me about this particular seller referenced above, maybe I assumed too much and jumped to conclusions as he does have a great reputation and the specific coins I referenced actually do not grade well. It’s just that it all seemed timed where my coins from him did not grade well repeatedly and there was some repackaging going on.

I apologize to that seller and other forum members if comments in the post above that I made where out of line. In fact you can just delete the post above as I do feel it was not right to jump to conclusions.
 
I would not want to aid in tarnishing the reputation of a well respected person by everyone on this forum.         

Offline Grip

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2011, 07:11:18 PM »
If badon is correct, then it is not an assumption but a conclusion follows from that premise to say that...
If we don't speculate, then badon may or may not be incorrect.  Buyers beware, all others speculate :)
I have purchased many sealed or maybe "resealed" coins from XU Hong. Every coin has come back from NGC as 68 or 69. Just my humble input...

Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2011, 09:02:15 PM »
Don't worry about it. Everyone knows that Xu Hong is a good seller. He made a mistake, and he corrected it. He even got on this forum to talk to us about it, which counts for a lot. He's an even better seller now than he was before, so I think a little pressure for him to do it better has both increased his income, and increased the quality of coins we get from him.

He is influential, and other dealers watch what he does. Make sure you reward him for changing for the better, because other dealers will follow his example. We don't have to forget what happened in the past, but that's only because it shows us how much he has improved as a seller.

Offline exchange

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2011, 10:08:00 PM »
Don't worry about it. Everyone knows that Xu Hong is a good seller. He made a mistake, and he corrected it. He even got on this forum to talk to us about it, which counts for a lot. He's an even better seller now than he was before, so I think a little pressure for him to do it better has both increased his income, and increased the quality of coins we get from him.

He is influential, and other dealers watch what he does. Make sure you reward him for changing for the better, because other dealers will follow his example. We don't have to forget what happened in the past, but that's only because it shows us how much he has improved as a seller.

Yes, he is an excellent seller. My best coins came from him. If it wasn't for him, I could never have found such coins let alone at reasonable prices.

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Offline mrslick32

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2011, 04:22:09 AM »
I can understand why Comeaux felt the way he did. Anyone who continuously keeps getting low grade items will not be happy as well. However, I am lucky to have a different experience buying from Xu Hong so far. I bought two 1991 silver panda proofs that both graded MS69 and a 1992 5 oz. silver panda that graded PF69.

I am just speculating here but one possible reason for the low grades that Comeaux got is due to the handling of the coins during shipping. Based on my experience, most modern Chinese coins up to around the year 2003 move around inside their plastic capsules (whether in OMP, resealed, or just the capsule) because the capsules are too big for the coins. Imagine all the moving around the coins did inside the capsule and how many people handled the package from the time it left Xu Hong's store up to the time it arrived at the buyer's mailing address. I'm not even considering the handling before it got to Xu Hong's store. If the coins are not handled properly, they may develop some bumps on the surface, which is one area that NGC and PCGS looks at to determine the grade of the coin. It is difficult to see these bumps without examining the coins under magnification, which I don't think Xu Hong has the luxury of doing given the number of coins he offers for sale. Silver is much harder than gold so I don't expect silver to develop bump marks or scratches as easily as gold coins, but it's still possible.

This may be counterintuitive to most people, but the only MS70 coin I received from NGC so far was a coin that I did not buy double sealed. It was only inside a plastic capsule, which I think was not the original capsule because the capsule was an exact fit for the coin. Another reason why I think it is not the original capsule is because I have doubles of the exact coin and all the other coins were in capsules that allowed the coins to move around. Probably I was just lucky that the previous owner knew how to handle coins and transferred the coin from OMP to the air-tite capsule right after receiving the coin from the mint, but I am speculating here again. However, I got an MS70 grade for the coin and it looks great, which is what I am happy about. I noticed that more of the recent coins have been getting MS70s. I only have a 2007 1 oz. silver panda (I don't collect 2004 to present silver pandas in 1 oz. size) so my sample size is really small, but I noticed that the coin fits snugly inside its capsule. I can imagine that most of the later releases from the mint have capsules that fit better and thus more MS70 grades are achieved by these coins.

Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2011, 03:30:43 PM »
I agree. Original mint packaging is usually very poor, and actually damages the coins. For those who don't want to send their coins to NCS/NGC, the next best alternative is to put the coins into an airtite brand holder, or something similar, just to stop the original packaging from damaging the coin.

Offline exchange

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2011, 03:37:32 PM »
I agree. Original mint packaging is usually very poor, and actually damages the coins. For those who don't want to send their coins to NCS/NGC, the next best alternative is to put the coins into an airtite brand holder, or something similar, just to stop the original packaging from damaging the coin.

I disagree, as we discussed it several times in other threads.

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Offline comeaux

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2011, 03:47:04 PM »
This is getting to be hilarious !!! :lol:

Offline comeaux

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2011, 04:08:27 PM »
Haven’t we all figured it out yet that OMP is nothing more than worthless plastic with harmful chemicals and PVC’s that will destroy our prized coins and that NCS/NGC are nothing more than robbers, crooks & criminals that will steal/swap our coins and that those coins that do safely make it through the NCS/NGC “butcher shop” will just degrade into worthless piles of metal in years to come !!!
 
decisions  decisions   :laugh:

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2011, 09:02:26 PM »
Haven’t we all figured it out yet that OMP is nothing more than worthless plastic with harmful chemicals and PVC’s that will destroy our prized coins and that NCS/NGC are nothing more than robbers, crooks & criminals that will steal/swap our coins and that those coins that do safely make it through the NCS/NGC “butcher shop” will just degrade into worthless piles of metal in years to come !!!

I like the way you stated your opinion. I do believe there may be some truth in it, especially the second half of your sentence.
 
decisions  decisions   :laugh:


Offline comeaux

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2011, 11:25:17 AM »
I like the way you stated your opinion. I do believe there may be some truth in it, especially the second half of your sentence

Hello Pandaguy … thanks for your response but the truth in my comment is nothing, there is no truth to it all as far as I believe. I simply made this statement in humor taking a jab at the incessant squabbling over what is better … OMP or grading  There has been nothing to factually substantiate the argument from either side (OMP vs. Grading).   

From my personal experience I have seen coins remain in perfect mint condition after 30 years in OMP and still look as good as the day they were minted, they even graded 69 after being entombed in plastic for 30 years. So I have seen no proof that remaining in OMP will be detrimental to the coin.

With that being said I have graded nearly 200 panda coins at NCS/NGC and have been very pleased, to the best of my knowledge my coins have not been robbed and pillaged or I would not be getting back my 69’s and 70’s as those would likely be the ones stolen. There are members here who have had thousands of coins graded. The coins I have had graded look perfectly fine and I have no reason to believe they will not remain in this condition.

Everyone has their own opinion and beliefs as to what is best for their coins and I nor anyone else really has enough facts to conclusively say what truly is better when it comes to OMP/Grading. In view of this fact, I will choose not to engage in discussions any longer of what is better as like I said, nobody really knows for sure. Both sides have very valid points.

Personally I will continue to maintain coins in both of these states, OMP and NGC graded.  :001_smile:   

Offline GDG's

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2011, 10:49:01 AM »
Xu Hung is an HONEST seller. Ask him any question and he will give you an honest answer. He offers a complete refund and pays return shipping. I have bought from him and never had a problem because I ask any question I have and he gives an honest answer. I asked about this specific issue and he told me item was resealed. Please don't be so quick to label someone dishonest.

That being said, you can always buy slabbed coins right here in the U.S.A. I buy most often from Jay but have bought from many others and have never had a problem. I have found all Panda collectors to be honest so far. I am careful to deal with reputable dealers and I'm sure we all know who they are.

Coinslinger

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2011, 01:44:42 AM »
It is NOT honest to reseal coins. PERIOD.  Stop defending this nonsense.... I too have had an overall good experience with this seller and yes, if confronted he will confess that a particular item may have been resealed..... the fact that he doesn't initially disclose which items may or may not have been resealed is in itself a dishonest practice.... there is no such thing as random, selective 'honesty'.  I have nothing personal against Xu Hung, but he needs to be cease and desist this shady practice.  Just sell the coin as you received it.

If God wanted unsealed coins to be resealed, then he would have miracled them back into their original seals!  ;)