Author Topic: Rewrapped Pandas  (Read 27648 times)

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Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2010, 01:35:38 AM »
I don't want to cheat others, this is why I show the whole image of the coin and wrapping.

This is no different from most other criminals who sell fake coins:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360279896609

Offline elaine 1970

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2010, 10:01:26 AM »
in the future and at this modern age.  plastic seal will have to add security like those of paper or plastic money.  what you think?.

Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2010, 10:34:12 AM »
Yes, PCGS and NGC plastic seals do that.

Offline larrydreher

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2010, 11:10:42 AM »
This is no different from most other criminals who sell fake coins:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360279896609


Qwasty,

You are entitled to your opinion but these are very strong words and perhaps you should preface them as opinions.  You just inferred this seller is a "criminal" because you disagree with his selling policies.  I was hoping this forum would be a little more helpful and we could build a sense of community due to our common interest in coins.  We can all learn a lot from the chinese coin dealers and I'd like to encourage them to actively participate.  You can choose to not buy from anyone you aren't comfortable with but don't create such animosity that we can't have an open and honest exchange of ideas.

Again *in my opinion* this dealer is honest and ethical. 

Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2010, 11:43:11 AM »
I have always liked Xu Hong, and I've been buying and selling with him for many years. That post wasn't meant to be directed at him personally, but to show that criminals use distorted thinking patterns to shift responsibility to the victim and justify the fraud, often by simply showing a picture of a fake item. The logic goes something like this:

Victim: "You sold me a fake coin."
Criminal: "I showed you a picture of it. It's not my fault you couldn't tell it was fake."
Victim: "But, you sold me a fake coin!"
Criminal: "I never said the coin was genuine. It's not my fault you assumed it was genuine."
Victim: "BUT, YOU SOLD ME A FAKE COIN!"
Criminal: "I sold you exactly what was in the picture. It's not my fault you chose to buy a fake."
Victim: "You sold me a fake coin."
Criminal: (silence)

It's very common, and always criminal, and should NEVER be tolerated in the marketplace. There are plenty of completely honest dealers who have to compete with shady criminal ones. Doing business with the shady dealers only serves to drive out the completely honest dealers from the marketplace.

But, once again, I'm speaking very generally. I'm not telling anyone what to do about Xu Hong. As I said before, I've always had good dealings with him. It's up to you to decide for yourself what are acceptable business practices.

My opinion is that every dealer should constantly and carefully think about what they're doing, and how it will affect their business. The temptation to sacrifice a little information disclosure for a few extra dollars is always present, but so are the demands for a dealer's time. The best dealers are too busy to list every detail about their coins, which is why they have to offer a good return policy, which all the good dealers will do, and Xu Hong does. He even pays return shipping!

In all the years I've been dealing with him, I've returned only one coin that I didn't like for personal reasons. He found me another coin I liked better, and he paid the return shipping for the coin I wanted to return. I don't think it's justified to call Xu Hong a bad dealer, but I think the issues raised here can easily be fixed before it becomes a problem. I'm sure he will.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 12:00:34 PM by qwasty »

Offline larrydreher

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2010, 12:19:15 PM »
Thanks for the explanation. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your comments.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2010, 10:26:30 PM »
One thing that I think shouldn't be lost in Xu Hong's response is that collectors in different lands have different priorities. It's obvious that the Chinese place a high value on presentation. This is reflected in the beautiful presentation cases that the Chinese Mint makes for its coins. It's also seen in Chinese collector's preference for originally packaged Pandas. North Americans are fixated on the absolute condition of a coin, down to a level beyond normal eyesight, and slabbed, graded coins are a response to this focus. Slabs leave plenty to be desired in aesthetic terms, though. From what I have seen, European collectors like to get unobstructed views of the coins in their collections. They tend to remove coins from pouches. More than North Americans, they also seem to accept coins that have been decorated in the aftermarket with either colors or plating.

Chacun à son goût. Each of these approaches is valid and none is inherently superior to the others, it depends on what you want. From my point of view, the plastic wrappers are interesting because they can be a clue to a coin's Mint of origin. If they have been faked, that will distort the information but I doubt this impacts a large percentage of the Panda population.

Last, I am intrigued that Xu Hong's coins are actually sealed at the Shanghai Mint itself. I never would have guessed that. While obviously not completely original I can imagine some collectors would be attracted to a hybrid Mint sealed coin, even if the sealing is an aftermarket affair. I completely agree that aftermarket sealing has the potential to create all kinds of confusion and mischief, especially in the hands of dishonest or ignorant sellers.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com/

Offline xuhong

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2010, 01:33:41 AM »
Interesting discussion.   :thumbup: I learned a lot.  Thank you all.   Hope I can know more about Chinese coins. 

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2010, 03:10:56 PM »
Xu Hong,

This item http://cgi.ebay.com/12oz-gold-panda-/220656789715?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 looks like it is using your photo from http://cgi.ebay.com/1993-12oz-panda-gold-coin-/370418900993?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0. eBay will remove it if you contact them.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony,
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2010, 03:36:42 PM »
Xu Hong, ebay ID=hangzhouhuayinshoucangpin, is at it again!!! :cursing:

He has an auction for 1996 Unicorn Proof. Auction #250707154298.
Pictures are below showing wrong wrap. This coin was REWRAPPED in a Shenyang Mint wrapper. These coins were minted ONLY at Shanghai mint.  This is a deceptive selling practice.  :sneaky2:

Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2010, 02:06:00 AM »
If there's something important that's not disclosed, it's a mistake. If the seller continues the practice after being alerted to the problem, it is not mistake. Too bad you can't get the truth about these coins from the seller.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2010, 08:28:34 AM »
Haha I guess I'm a typical european collector then. I usually prefer to buy raw coins, and if they are slabbed I'll often set them free, unless it's from NGC/PCGS and highly graded. I store the coin in padded plastic capsules though. I guess I'd be less inclined to do so if I was collecting modern coins though. I prefer toned, and slightly circulated coins, as you kinda "feel" more the age and history of the coin than if it's a pristine MS that spent the century in a bank vault.

Offline chinaconbuyer

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2010, 05:06:09 PM »
I can understand why most people are upset about this.  It's a common practice in China.  The quality and condition of the coin is more important than the seal.  You shouldn't take the seal seriously.  If you have any doubt, you can ask the seller.  Even dealers in the US often sell coins in plastic seal that are not original. I have bought a lot of those and feel a bit deceived as well.
If you have any modern China coin for sale or have any question for China coins, email me: ChinaCoinBuyer@gmail.com  I offer high price for China coins.

Offline peng_you

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2011, 04:59:32 AM »
If Badon is correct in his conviction within the importance of having your coins processed by NCS, and this dealer is known to sell resealed coins and more recently certified coins; Would it be a fair assumption to say that any better/rare/backdate stuff he offers are reject coins? I dont want to speculate or anything....
Peng_you

Offline dobedo

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2011, 07:50:20 AM »
If Badon is correct in his conviction within the importance of having your coins processed by NCS, and this dealer is known to sell resealed coins and more recently certified coins; Would it be a fair assumption to say that any better/rare/backdate stuff he offers are reject coins? I dont want to speculate or anything....
Peng_you
If badon is correct, then it is not an assumption but a conclusion follows from that premise to say that...
If we don't speculate, then badon may or may not be incorrect.  Buyers beware, all others speculate :)