Author Topic: Rewrapped Pandas  (Read 30659 times)

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Offline larrydreher

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2010, 10:41:43 AM »
Please look at this auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/sheet-10-coins-2007-1oz-panda-silver-coin-/370419672950?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

He clearly states:

"Please note that there's no double sealed panda in 10pcs sheet after 2006.  This is aftermarcket sealed just for the convenience of shipment and protection to the coin.  All the coins sealed is in mint condition"

I'm not making excuses for anybody. Make your own judgement if you think this is "dishonst".

Offline larrydreher

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2010, 11:13:21 AM »
Ome more thing...  A vast majority of his ebay listings clearly state that he uses stock photos.  I can understand why people would not want to buy under those circumstances but he is up front about it.

"All the pictures are taken ourselves. For most coins we sell, we have more than one. After we sold one coin, we relist the same ebay listing and use the same/old pictures. So you may not receive the same coin as in the picture, however the coin you’ll receive will be in the same condition or even better in condition as the coin in the picture. The coa No or the coin No will be randomly selected if it is not declared clearly in the description."

Disclosure:  I have purchased hundreds if not thousands of coins from this guy and have also sold him hundreds of coins.  I've never had an issue with him.  In the event I didn't like a coin he was always willing to take it back without question. 

Offline pecus

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2010, 11:22:38 AM »
I, too, have purchased many coins from this dealer over the past four years and have never had a bad experience.  I think the fact that he discloses these practices does protect him from the charge that he is "cheating."  However, one complication is that if a buyer resells these coins, later buyers might not be aware of an important bit of information. 

I have contacted the seller and asked him to address this issue in this forum.

Pecus

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2010, 11:52:14 AM »
Ome more thing...  A vast majority of his ebay listings clearly state that he uses stock photos.  I can understand why people would not want to buy under those circumstances but he is up front about it.

"All the pictures are taken ourselves. For most coins we sell, we have more than one. After we sold one coin, we relist the same ebay listing and use the same/old pictures. So you may not receive the same coin as in the picture, however the coin you’ll receive will be in the same condition or even better in condition as the coin in the picture. The coa No or the coin No will be randomly selected if it is not declared clearly in the description."

Disclosure:  I have purchased hundreds if not thousands of coins from this guy and have also sold him hundreds of coins.  I've never had an issue with him.  In the event I didn't like a coin he was always willing to take it back without question. 


Thank you for the link. And yes, in my opinion, this remains an unethical and deceptive practice. Thank you for the link on the "sealed" 2006. This only proves that this seller has a sealing machine (or some other procedure) that produces a mint seal identical to Shanghai mint (and maybe other mint seals too). Therefore, he is capable of rewrapping any coin (like his 1984 which started this thread) without disclosing the true facts. I understand that he will accept returns and many people have had good experiences, however, this is no salvation to an uninformed buyer or new collector that is unfamiliar with mint seals and who spent a lot of cash on buying what he thought was a truly untouched mint-sealed coin. Unfortuntunately, we have entered a new era of deception being knowingly perpetrated by this seller and those other sellers(both aware and unaware) down the line. It is called seal-counterfeiting. How sad!!  :(

Can somebody create a poll to take the pulse of the members regarding their opinion whether resealing and seal-counterfeiting are unethical and deceptive practices; whether disclosed or not disclosed? Thank you.
 
 

Offline saso12

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2010, 11:53:38 AM »

I also buught from this seller some China coins in past...everthing as described. I also bought sheet 2007 sealed(afthermarkt) and 2009 sealed Panda issue also.

I was aware that coins are NOT mint sealed, but afthermarkt.(and also that is FACT that China mint dd not produce sealed coins afther 2006...)


But I see problem with that 1984 Panda sealing....I saw that ebaylisting befor but OMG I realy did not know that sealing is wrong (If I was attend to buy I would check, recheck and check again if everything is as it should be :) ).

That is realy one big MINUS for seeler. But it can also be that this is stock foto and ppl who buy get ORIGINAL sealed coin......or maybe not.


I will get my China Panda Gold and Silver cataloque soon and I hope I will find there some more infos also about packaking of china coins

Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2010, 11:58:06 AM »
Can somebody create a poll to take the pulse of the members regarding their opinion whether resealing and seal-counterfeiting are unethical and deceptive practices; whether disclosed or not disclosed?

If it's phrased that way, I can't see how anyone would vote favorably for resealing. Either way, I don't think anything that is NOT a genuine mint product but is a DUPLICATE of a genuine mint product, should be allowed to survive on the market. It doesn't matter what it is, or how it was made.

Offline pecus

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2010, 12:07:11 PM »
Qwasty has got it right.  I hope this dealer changes his ways (though how will anyone know for sure?).

On the point about sealing machines.  Does anyone know how easy they are to get and does anyone know or suspect that such machines have been in use for some time, unknown to most of us?

Pecus

Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2010, 12:15:09 PM »
I know that coins have been getting resealed at least since 2004, but probably much longer than that. The first good resealed coins I've seen were on the market not much later. It's so easy to do this kind of resealing that, for a dealer that makes an extra $15 per coin on hundreds or thousands of coins per year, it would be affordable to commission a custom-made sealing machine. Such a machine, if modified from existing machines, would probably cost a few hundred to as much as $1000 dollars at most, if made in America. It would be even cheaper to make in China, and probably already available for sale, with no need for custom manufacturing.

I'm just doing some guessing, so I could be somewhat inaccurate, but I do have manufacturing experience, and I have dealt with sealing machines too, so I think my guesses are a good starting point.

My solution is to go with graded and authenticated coins, and throw the worthless packaging in the trash.

Offline elaine 1970

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2010, 12:19:42 PM »
in recent years.  dealers always send coins for slab.  therefore.  it is easier for unsealed coins to do that purpose.  those lower condition coins then sell it back to customers.  now.  if we buy from them for brand new bullion coins.  we are not sure those were never been sent for slab.  and we can not get ms-70 as we can have before.  that is why double sealed is very important.
in u.s. we can buy directly from the u.s. mint.  therefore.  we got all the advantage.

Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2010, 12:24:08 PM »
Elaine, they just reseal the coins and sell them back on the market if they don't get a high grade. I've heard it enough times from enough different people that seeing an actual example posted here does not surprise me. That's why I NEVER collect original sealed coins, only high quality slabbed coins. If you collect original double sealed coins, you have THREE problems:

#1 the coin seal is fake
#2 the coin is low quality
#3 the coin might be fake, and you can't see through the seal to be sure

Why bother with crap coins? Just get the high quality, genuine, coins from NGC or PCGS.

Offline pecus

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2010, 12:42:13 PM »
Qwasty:

Do your comments apply to all panda, lunar and unicorn coins, whatever the size, or just to 1 oz pandas?

Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2010, 12:55:08 PM »
All of them. The large size coins I think are especially important to only buy authenticated and graded. The reasons are:

#1 Frequently mishandled. If it bumps something, it leaves small, but deep damage that lowers the value a LOT.
#2 Fakes, fakes, fakes. They're everywhere.
#3 Big coins are expensive. One fake, and you lose a lot of money.

Good fakes of unicorns have been showing up lately. Good fakes of pandas have always been around. Lunar coins are also often low grade, so they really need to be graded to be sure you're not overpaying for a dinged up coin. I haven't seen a lot of lunar fakes, but they're out there.

For an example of grade, the difference in value of these two coins is growing rapidly (over $1000 now), but you can barely see the difference in grade:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=866.0

You will be shocked to find out that your precious double sealed coins are genuine, and have genuine original seals, but there was a tiny mark on your coin that you couldn't see because of the stupid seal, and you ended up losing $1000!

Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2010, 12:59:56 PM »
Here's another grade example. The tiny marks on this 1995 1 oz silver proof panda coin were completely invisible when the coin was in the original packaging, but I believe this coin will sell for less than I paid for it. If I had bought this coin already graded, then I wouldn't have been shocked to find out that there was a mark on it that caused me to lose money:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=881.0

Coins that are still in the original mint package are usually there because they have a problem. The best coins get sent in for grading. If you only buy coins with original mint seals, then you are more likely to be buying low quality coins. Plus, if the coin HAS been resealed, then it's guaranteed the coin has a problem, or it would have been sent for grading.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 01:10:53 PM by qwasty »

Offline badon

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2010, 01:16:45 PM »
For an example of grade, the difference in value of these two coins is growing rapidly (over $1000 now), but you can barely see the difference in grade:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=866.0

You will be shocked to find out that your precious double sealed coins are genuine, and have genuine original seals, but there was a tiny mark on your coin that you couldn't see because of the stupid seal, and you ended up losing $1000!

I should mention the other possibility: You have original sealed coins, but you cut them out and send them for grading. You lost $100 by cutting them out of the seals, but some of your coins came back in such a high grade that you made $2000 by getting them graded! Plus, graded and authenticated coins are MUCH easier to sell because buyers know exactly what they're getting. They don't have to worry if it's fake, or damaged, or some variety they already have.

With sealed coins, they can't know for sure if the coin has been resealed, or if it has damage, so they're slow to buy. If you put a fine, rare coin on eBay in PF69 or PF70 grade, you will have no trouble selling the coin. Everybody wants the best coins for their collection.

Offline xuhong

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Re: Rewrapped Pandas
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2010, 12:44:26 AM »
Hello, everybody, one of my dear customers told me about this issue.  Thank you all for discussing this problem so I can know your complaint.  I kept thinking about the aftermarcket sealed problems.  In China, it is not popular right now to get a coin to be graded, maybe it will be popular in the future.  We trust our own eyes to check the coin.  If the coin is free of hairlines, scratches, white spots (silver coin), black spots (copper coin), we think the coin is in good condition.  We don't quite have special reqirements in sealing.  Toning on silver or gold coins does not matter.  Because toning on silver can be cleaned by silver clean water and the toning on gold can disapear after heated by fire.  It seems that toning does not influence the grading because many coins graded 69 has many toning spots (I don't know if this is ture,  hope anybody can tell me. ) 
It seems a bit impossible to declare in every listing if the coin is original sealed or not, because I may have originally sealed coins but sometimes may not for I sell coins in the real shop at the same time.  To this issue, I can only say that I'll send the original sealed coin if I have, if not, I'll chose the best one which is free of hairlines, tonings and spots.  I'll seek out a solution so buyers can know well about what they are getting. 
Regarding to the aftermarcket sealed which looks like shanghai mint sealed, the truth is they are sealed in Shanghai mint.  My shop locates near the Shanghai mint.  So if needed, I'll take orginal plastic plate packed (30 pcs packed together)coins to Shanghai mint and ask them to get it sealed.  This is easier for shipment than coins in 30 pcs packed plate.  I pay to Shanghai mint for sealing the coin.  I myself have a little sealing machine which can seal a coin like this in the listing http://cgi.ebay.com/1983-8g-gold-coin-pig-/250682042150?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0   (The first picture right edge and the second picture the left edge)   The edges sealed by shenyang mint, shenzhen mint and shanghai ming is unique.  Hope most buyers can know this point.  I don't want to cheat others, this is why I show the whole image of the coin and wrapping. 
If any buyer who do not satisfied with the coin received, the coin can be returned for exchange or full refund.  I pay for the return shipping.  This is my return policy on ebay. 
The last words is I'll try my best to provide the best Chinese coins. 
Wish you all the best.  If you have any suggestions, please mail me @ xuhong88888888@126.com