Author Topic: when NGC recommends conservation . . .  (Read 9459 times)

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Offline Mirkkanen

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when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« on: February 20, 2013, 01:35:18 PM »
hey guys. I'd appreciate a few opinions on this question. I submitted several coinsto NGC and I just got confirmation that they feel 2 of my coins would benefit from NCS conservation. 1 of the grades I received was a 69 and the other grade was a 68. It will cost 20 dollars per coin to have them conserved through NCS. They said the coins may have a chance for a higher grade if conserved. No guarantees obviously. The 69 coin is a 1/10 oz 1994s gold panda. The 68 coin is a 2000 frosted silver Panda. Should I send these through the Conservation Service?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2013, 03:14:42 PM »
I can relate two recent experiences:
1.  Submitted 5x 1934 Junk from the same batch directly to NGC.  Received an email that one of them has PVC residue and can not be encapsulated and recommend me to put it through NCS.  I did, the fee was $21, and it was re-graded and received a AU58 while the other four coins all received MS63.  I compared the AU58 to MS63, and really can't see why the lower grade.  It certainly is a shiny coin after NCS.  I plan to resubmit it to PCGS and see.
2.  Submit two dragon & Phoenix directly to NGC.  They both have tarnish, but otherwise OK.  Did not received an email about submitting to NCS for better grade, but both came back PF66.  Again, I don't know why, but I plan to send one of them to NCS and try again.

My experience base are small and I remain open-minded and willing to try again, but I would suggest the possibility that NCS process may affect your coin grade up or down.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2013, 03:29:29 PM »
... NCS process may affect your coin grade up or down.

I can attest that NCS can sometime affect the grading up or down.

Offline Vredaren

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2013, 04:52:30 PM »
As someone who's just about to submit some coins to NGC for the first time this is something I'm contemplating as well. From my understanding NCS can help with toning/residue in which cases you would benefit from it and otherwise not so much, maybe help with the luster? Would love to hear some more opinions on this.

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2013, 05:58:59 PM »
AND ..... sometimes after NCS, silver coins come back with spots and water marks that were not previously visible!!!   N32

Offline Batman

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2013, 07:50:50 PM »
hey guys. I'd appreciate a few opinions on this question. I submitted several coinsto NGC and I just got confirmation that they feel 2 of my coins would benefit from NCS conservation. 1 of the grades I received was a 69 and the other grade was a 68. It will cost 20 dollars per coin to have them conserved through NCS. They said the coins may have a chance for a higher grade if conserved. No guarantees obviously. The 69 coin is a 1/10 oz 1994s gold panda. The 68 coin is a 2000 frosted silver Panda. Should I send these through the Conservation Service?

I find it interesting that NGC is now pushing NCS services.  I doubt they would raise the grade on the 69..,as for the 68, short of removing a copper spot, i am not sure it would help.

Has the NCS business slowed down since changing their price structure and going from conserving everything to now evaluating???

If the are offering conservation while they have th coins in hand are they going to charge another grading fee...they probably should.  I would wait until I see the coins in person and then decide.

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2013, 07:55:12 PM »
I am leaning toward yes on the fractional 1994 gold panda, on the off chance it could pull a 70, but no in the 2000 frosted panda. I already have some silver 69s, and would probably be looking to sell this 68 off anyway. Maybe I'll let the next buyer decide what he/she wants.

Still open to others' input. Thanks for the comments received so far.

Offline madmuley

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2013, 09:28:09 PM »
I just experimented with the NCS conservation on 2 Previously graded Pandas. Neither coin had significant issues, only light toning. One a 1999 Large Date Plain 1 previously graded MS67 by NCG and One 1999 Large Date Serif 1 previously graded MS67 by PCGS. I cut both coins out of their holders and sent them to be conserved and graded. After conservation the Plain 1 was once again graded as a MS67. The Serif 1 was again graded as a MS68. I also cut out and sent in a 2003 Mirrored panda that was previously graded as MS67. This is the best looking 2003 mirrored I have out of 10. I did not have this coin conserved. The 2003 once again came back as a MS67. I was completely amazed that all 3 coins came back with the same grade that they were originally given.

Offline sbeverly

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2013, 06:38:39 AM »

A friend submitted a previously graded PF 68 UltraCam 1988 Basel Panda to NCS at the FUN show.
It came back Tuesday as a PF 69 UltraCam. A fairly large copper spot was removed.

He submitted 5 other gold pandas and all came back unchanged.

Offline Birdman

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2013, 08:50:29 AM »
If there are copper spots or other distracting toning or surface residue, I am convinced that NCS conservation has a reasonable likelihood of leading to a higher grade (but would not likely lead to a MS70 from an MS69).  I could share one or two anecdotes in support...  Another thing to keep in mind, however, is how conservation might enhance the eye-appeal of the coin, even if it doesn't increase the numerical grade.  That is to say, at some point you will likely want to sell your coin, preferably at a profit.  Some buyers will hold off on bidding on or purchasing a coin if it doesn't look appealing, even if it is the grade they want.  Thus, answering the question, "was conservation worth it?" would require more information than whether it resulted in a higher grade.  If your coin has a few distracting spots, you might have trouble selling it at the market price.  But if it comes back from conservation with nice eye appeal (but at the same grade), you might still have done well, if you are able to sell the coin more quickly at a higher price.  Of course, with conservation of expensive coins costing 5% of the value of the coin, you need to think through whether the likely benefit will exceed the cost of conservation.

afterthought...yet another consideration in whether conservation was "worth it" is whether removing (invisible) residues from the surface of the coin now will prevent unsightly surface deterioration later.  I have no data on this but it would be an interesting experiment.  Take 20 gold 1/10 oz bullion pandas from the 1980's that likely have surface residues from the mint packaging.  Send 10 of them through NCS first and 10 of them straight to NGC.  Take photos of all coins: (1) before conservation/grading, (2) immediately after conservation/grading, and (3) at various time periods afterwards.  Do the surfaces of the ones that went through conservation look better (or worse?!) after 5, 10, 15, 20 years of sitting in storage?  I'd love to hear the results of that experiment.  That would test whether conservation, by removing surface residues, acts as an "insurance policy" against future degradation, as is sometimes mentioned as a potential benefit of the procedure...

Offline Honus

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2013, 09:39:03 AM »
I am leaning toward yes on the fractional 1994 gold panda, on the off chance it could pull a 70, but no in the 2000 frosted panda. I already have some silver 69s, and would probably be looking to sell this 68 off anyway. Maybe I'll let the next buyer decide what he/she wants.

Still open to others' input. Thanks for the comments received so far.

This is a really odd situation, Mirkkanen...first, as others have pointed out, them hinting at the possibility of a higher grade on a coin that's already an MS69?    That almost sounds like they're selling you an MS70 grade, without actually guaranteeing that you'll get it.   I'm on the fence about the 1994 1/10....the money is trivial in the big picture, so it's not that, it's just that I'd love to see what the heck is wrong with a coin that they've already given an MS69, and that may need conservation.   If it goes right over to NCS, you won't get a chance to see what they see before they "conserve" it.    As we've seen, from my recent thread with the coin that developed multiple copper spots in a very short window of transit and grading time, it's possible the coin will come back looking markedly different from when you submitted it, and I'm sure you'd like to see what it looks like before NCS does their thing.  Of course, just getting that email is interesting...again, with my recent 1983 that went in looking beautiful and spot-free, and came back with 7 copper spots (some fairly large) and some grunge and that got an MS67 grade, wouldn't that have been a perfect opportunity for them to up-sell me on some NCS services as they did with you?     I wouldn't blame you if you went for NCS on the 1994...$20 for a shot at an MS70 grade is tempting, though I'm skeptical like everyone else.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2013, 01:33:18 PM »
Contrary to some of the opinions here, although I did weigh each member's statements, I have decided to submit both coins to NCS for conservation. What helped sway my opinion was this comment from Birdman: "Another thing to keep in mind, however, is how conservation might enhance the eye-appeal of the coin, even if it doesn't increase the numerical grade." Everyone says, buy the coin not the grade, right?

I would have *liked* NGC to send me pictures of the coins they felt would benefit from conservation. I sent in about 15 or so coins, all in OMP I believe, so for them to pick out two and recommend conservation, there must have been something they saw that I didn't see. NGC certainly did not choose the two highest $$$ coins to inform me about, as I send in at least 3 $1000+ coins.

Anyhow, I'll post pics of the coins when I receive them back from NGC/NCS so you all can see how they turn out.

Offline Honus

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2013, 01:40:42 PM »
For the cost involved, I don't blame you at all Mirkkanen.  Keep us all posted, and here's hoping you get yourself a nice MS70 out of the deal.   
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2013, 08:21:54 PM »
Well, I can now update this thread with the results of my NCS conservation dilemma.

One of my two coins DID go up in grade . . . the 2000 frosted ring panda. The only thing is, I misread the info from NGC. I actually submitted a G10Y panda, not an S10Y panda. So the 2000 1/10th oz gold panda moved up from a 68 to a 69!! The 1994 G10Y panda stayed a 69.

The experience cost me a total of $40 bucks. I believe that the 69 grade will be worth it in the long run, so in my eyes it was worth it. And hey, at least the eye appeal of the coins should improve . . . right?

As for the other coins I submitted and the grades received, I'm attaching a nice lil' PDF doc so you can share in my joy  :thumbup:

Offline Birdman

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2013, 08:27:03 PM »
Well, I can now update this thread with the results of my NCS conservation dilemma.

One of my two coins DID go up in grade . . . the 2000 frosted ring panda. The only thing is, I misread the info from NGC. I actually submitted a G10Y panda, not an S10Y panda. So the 2000 1/10th oz gold panda moved up from a 68 to a 69!! The 1994 G10Y panda stayed a 69.

The experience cost me a total of $40 bucks. I believe that the 69 grade will be worth it in the long run, so in my eyes it was worth it. And hey, at least the eye appeal of the coins should improve . . . right?

As for the other coins I submitted and the grades received, I'm attaching a nice lil' PDF doc so you can share in my joy  :thumbup:

I see an MS70 :)  Those always bring a smile when you are checking your grading results.

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2013, 08:29:57 PM »
 N39
A very big smile indeed, thank you.

Offline Honus

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2013, 08:54:25 PM »
Nice collection of coins, Mirkkanen!   And nice grades all around, including an MS70 on the LD '89 which is a nice coin.  I'm so jealous!   Just once before I die I want to get an MS70 grade on one of my NGC gold panda submissions...just one!  :biggrin:   
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2013, 09:15:00 PM »
Honus, I hope that you get more than you're hoping for! We all deserve the joy of the eyes beholding that magical 70.

All of the gold coins I submitted were in OMP. About 1/2 of them came back with 69 grades.

None of these had been sitting with me safely for years. 90% of them were coin show buys, eBay buys, or trades with forum members.


Offline Pandagongzi

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2013, 12:54:47 AM »
I sent 5 OMP to NGC couple weeks ago.  3 came back MS67, 1 MS68 and 1 MS69.  NGC didn't leave any comments and neither recommendation of conservation.  I was wondering why I was treated differently?  And I do believe they care about red spots.  2 MS67 looks perfectly fine other than some redspots.  Majority of pop were 68/69,  they were graded so low.

Offline Pandagongzi

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2013, 11:16:03 AM »
hey guys. I'd appreciate a few opinions on this question. I submitted several coinsto NGC and I just got confirmation that they feel 2 of my coins would benefit from NCS conservation. 1 of the grades I received was a 69 and the other grade was a 68. It will cost 20 dollars per coin to have them conserved through NCS. They said the coins may have a chance for a higher grade if conserved. No guarantees obviously. The 69 coin is a 1/10 oz 1994s gold panda. The 68 coin is a 2000 frosted silver Panda. Should I send these through the Conservation Service?

I got similar email from NGC this time.  However they didn't tell me what's the current grade and how much to NCS.  How did you know the grade and NCS cost?

Offline vkind

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2013, 11:33:08 AM »

I normally write in comment box to NGC to recommend me if conservation will be helpful. Once in a while they come back.

http://www.ncscoin.com/conservation/services_and_fees.asp

Here is the current NCS fees (cut and paste form the website (two most common used service....and note that other bells and whistles like $8 per invoice etc are involved).

1)CONSERVATION 4% of declared value* up to $150,000 per coin, 2% of declared value* over $150,000 per coin, $15 minimum fee †   Appropriate conservation work is performed. After conservation, coins will be submitted to the appropriate NCS-approved grading service if requested. Additional fees apply for encapsulation. NCS reserves the right to make the final decision as to the best conservation treatment.

2) MODERN TIER $27†   Submit any uncertified US or World coin struck from 1970 to present. One flat fee includes conservation by NCS and NGC certification. Following conservation, coins are transferred to NGC where they are graded and encapsulated in the NGC holder. Not genuine coins or coins with altered dates or mintmarks will be returned uncertified. Maximum value $300 per coin. Five (5)-coin minimum.

Good luck!

Offline Pandagongzi

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2013, 12:10:15 PM »
In this case,  the coin is already with NGC.  Are they charging conservation fee only?  Or it will cost as if submitted directly to NCS?

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2013, 12:13:00 PM »
I got similar email from NGC this time.  However they didn't tell me what's the current grade and how much to NCS.  How did you know the grade and NCS cost?

A friend made this submission for me. He passed on the information to me that NGC told him. I will ask him more specific questions to try and get the answers you are looking for.

Offline vkind

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2013, 12:19:29 PM »
Conservation is separate service performed by NCS (Sister company of NGC).

Weather the coin first went to NGC or NCS ....Irrespective of where coin went first(NGC or NCS), if the coin is conserved and slab'ed, your charges will be same. (cost of conservation + cost of slabbing)

If they recommended, I would go with their recommendation. 4% of conservation fee will pile up if you have high value coin. So you need to evaluate. Again, it may very will worth it.  NGC does not guarantee that it will improve any grade.

Its simple to figure out the cost of conservation.. Assuming only one coin is conserved...Its either $15 or 4% of value of coin. which ever is higher.

Add the slab cost to this conservation.


Offline Pandagongzi

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2013, 01:38:17 PM »
I call Lisa@NGC, she said NCS cost is 5%, minimum $15.

Offline jwa1inv

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Re: when NGC recommends conservation . . .
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2014, 04:52:22 PM »
My 1990 Bimetallic Panda medal PF 68 Ultra Cameo had developed tarnish
on the silver rim, so I sent it in to NCS/NGC and it came back a PF 69 Ultra Cameo.
The 1990 Bimetallic Panda coin was sent also for tarnish and maintained its grade of
PF 69 Ultra Cameo. Both cleaned up nicely with no tarnish remaining.

NCS cannot cure all of the PVC damage sometimes. I had a 5 ounce Expo Panda medal arrive
in original vinyl. A wave in the vinyl was stuck to the coin. The big black streak went across
the Panda's forehead and it returned from Sarasota looking like Kung Fu Panda. They
took care of the tarnish and reduced the vinyl mark.