Author Topic: An Impossible Task for Collectors  (Read 5319 times)

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Offline fwang2450

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An Impossible Task for Collectors
« on: February 16, 2013, 01:51:54 PM »
http://collection.sina.com.cn/qbtd/20120917/094284949.shtml
by Ding Chang
Sept 17, 2012

Collecting the whole series of the Ancient Chinese Inventions and Discoveries (I&D) precious metal coins is considered an impossible task for collectors. So far, no collector either in China or overseas has succeeded in assembling this massive series which was released for five years running from 1992 to 1996. The chronological order of this series of precious metal coins is as follows: three terrific gems were released in 1992 – the Compass kilo gold coin and the Seismograph kilo gold coin, with a mintage of 10, which is the lowest mintage among the gold coins released by the PRC; the Ancient Chinese I&D kilo silver coin set, with a mintage of 50 sets, again the lowest mintage among the silver coins released by the PRC. The wonder does not stop there: in the same year, 1992, the first set of Ancient Chinese I&D platinum coin set was released, with a mintage of 100 sets, which was the lowest mintage among all the platinum coins released by the PRC. Other releases, such as the first set of Ancient Chinese I&D gold coins (with a mintage of 1000), the Ancient Chinese I&D piedfort silver coin set (with a mintage of 2500 sets), the first set of Ancient Chinese I&D silver coins (with a mintage of 15000) and the 5oz Compass silver coin (with a mintage of 3000), are all hotly pursued by collectors. Last but not least, the two small silver coins, Paper Making and Bronze Coin Minting, are also highly valued!

In 1993, the People's Bank of China made adjustments to the Ancient Chinese I&D precious metal coins. Among the new releases were the second set of Ancient Chinese I&D platinum coins (with a mintage of 100 sets), the second set of Ancient Chinese I&D gold coins (with a mintage of 1200 sets), and the second set of Ancient Chinese I&D silver coins (with a mintage of 15000 sets). While the kilo gold and silver coins released in 1992 were discontinued, a new set of Yin and Yang Philosophy was launched, including 5oz gold and silver coins (with a mintage of 99 and 1000 respectively), a 1oz gold coin (with a mintage of 888), a 1/4oz gold coin (with a mintage of 3000), a 1/10 gold coin (unlimited mintage) and a 1oz silver coin (unlimited mintage). Shockingly, the People’s Bank of China also had a 5oz Definition of Zero silver coin minted, a pattern as valuable as national treasure, which is now housed in the showroom of the China Gold Coins Co.!

In 1994, the People’s Bank of China released the third set of Ancient Chinese I&D platinum coins (with a mintage of 100 sets), the third set of Ancient Chinese I&D gold coins (with a mintage of 1200 sets) and the third set of Ancient I&D silver coins (with a mintage of 15000 sets) and stopped at that. When it came to 1995, only the fourth set of Ancient Chinese I&D gold and silver coins were released (with a mintage of 1200 and 15000 respectively), plus the 15g Yin and Yang Philosophy small silver coin (with a mintage of 20000). In 1996, the People’s Bank of China only issued the fifth set of Ancient Chinese I&D gold and silver coins (with a mintage of 1200 and 15000 respectively), thus putting an end to the whole series of Ancient Chinese I&D precious metal coins, but the end was a snake’s tail compared with the start which resembled a tiger's head.

The most difficult coin to collect for the whole Ancient Chinese I&D series is the 5oz silver pattern Definition of Zero. Next in line are the kilo gold Compass and Seismograph, as well as the kilo silver coin set with a mintage of 50. Nobody either in China or overseas owns all these three types, even if we leave out the 5oz silver pattern Definition of Zero. A kilo gold Compass was auctioned of for the huge price of RMB8.3 million at the Champion Auction last year, and a kilo gold Seismograph was sold for RMB7.25 million at the beginning of this year.

(Description of the compass and the seismograph omitted.)

The Ancient I&D kilo silver set, with a mintage of 50, is priced at RMB2.5 million on the market right now; the Ancient Chinese I&D platinum coins (sets 1, 2 and 3) also have a market price tag of RMB2.5 million at the moment, while the Ancient Chinese I&D gold coins (sets 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5) have an asking price of RMB1.1 million. The 5oz Ying and Yang Philosophy gold coin has a price tag of RMB0.9 million. It is obvious that many sets in the Ancient Chinese I&D series are highly priced, not to mention the whole series!

Offline GDG's

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2013, 02:37:58 PM »
>>>It is obvious that many sets in the Ancient Chinese I&D series are highly priced, not to mention the whole series!<<<

One of our posters owns a complete set of the 93 thru 96 1/2 oz Gold I&D. I envy him. I own a few sets and need several coins to complete them all

which is proving impossible. The 92 1oz Golds are tough too. I own and have seen the Kite for sale a few times. The Ancient Ships 1 oz Gold is hard

to find too. I'm sure most will end up back in China eventually.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2013, 01:29:32 AM »
The 92 1oz Golds are tough too. I own and have seen the Kite for sale a few times. The Ancient Ships 1 oz Gold is hard to find too.

I am hoping to complete the 1992 1 Oz gold set in the next months. The Kite and the Compass are the cheapest coins in this set while the Ancient Ship is priced $2-3K more even though the mintage of all 5 coins is identical. Any idea what is the reason behind it?

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2013, 02:18:19 AM »
The Kite and the Compass are the cheapest coins in this set while the Ancient Ship is priced $2-3K more even though the mintage of all 5 coins is identical. Any idea what is the reason behind it?

There can only be two explanations why ship is more expensive than the kite and compass, popularity and rarity.  I believe it is the latter.  The 1992 set was sold in several configurations:

1) 5 piece sets - possibly 400-450 sets sold in this configuration
2) Single pieces - possibly 100-300 - with kite and compass being most popular, ship and seismograph least popular
3) Packaged with other sets - gold kite issued emperor sets - 188 issued, gold compass was also issued in a set

Item 3) would explain why kites and compasses are easiest to find. Item 2) would explain why ship and seismographs are hardest to find, some people think it is only the ship, but both are equally tough from my experience. 

Arif

Offline Gilmore

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2013, 04:06:08 AM »
Thank you Arif, that explains it very well  :thumbup1:


The Ancient I&D kilo silver set, with a mintage of 50, is priced at RMB2.5 million on the market right now

A complete silver kilo set was sold on Zhaoonline last December for RMB 1.7 million. Grades varied from 66 to 68. Zhaoonline mentioned mintage of 250 sets.
http://www.zhaoonline.com/zhongguodangdaijinyinbi/1911614.shtml

Offline pandamonium

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2013, 08:23:17 AM »
Good grief, what a awesome set of kilos!..........

Offline SANDAC

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2013, 11:31:03 AM »
What about this slab of 5 1992 G100Y, all PF69?  Nice coffee table display!

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=2761006-007

PS, given these coins are already so rare and hard to get, does major varieties even matter anymore?  The 1994 comet has known varieties discussed here:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5436.0

Offline fwang2450

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 11:43:56 AM »
Thank you Arif, that explains it very well  :thumbup1:


A complete silver kilo set was sold on Zhaoonline last December for RMB 1.7 million. Grades varied from 66 to 68. Zhaoonline mentioned mintage of 250 sets.
http://www.zhaoonline.com/zhongguodangdaijinyinbi/1911614.shtml
Most data in Chinese cite the mintage at 50 sets. Huang Ruiyong said the number 250 actually includes all the coins in the 50 sets (50*5).

Offline GDG's

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 10:22:38 AM »
What about this slab of 5 1992 G100Y, all PF69?  Nice coffee table display!

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=2761006-007

PS, given these coins are already so rare and hard to get, does major varieties even matter anymore?  The 1994 comet has known varieties discussed here:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5436.0

The 94 small date discussed in that thread I bought from Jim who I believe bought from Arif who owned multiple sets(I believe). I believe it is the only small date so far but I haven't sent them in to be reslabbed and won't bother.

To find any individual coins in the 1oz graded 69 is just about impossible. Even the 50y golds disappeared. I have a few holes that have remained holes.

Offline GDG's

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 10:59:43 AM »
 :thumbup:
I am hoping to complete the 1992 1 Oz gold set in the next months. The Kite and the Compass are the cheapest coins in this set while the Ancient Ship is priced $2-3K more even though the mintage of all 5 coins is identical. Any idea what is the reason behind it?

I'd like to complete my 92 set also. According to Peter's last pricepedia a Ship 1oz au sold in OMP in China for 10,482. I too will continue to look for this coin. I hope it doesn't go up too much where I can't afford it.

Two complete set's were sold in 69 for appx 50k & 42k respectively. The 42k is a great buy. Even the 50k set is only 10k a coin and they are 69's. Perhaps that is the easiest way to complete a set. Individual double's can be sold at a latter date. I had a 68 Urn here for sale at 9k. No one bought it so I'll just hold it. The coin is so hard to find it will only increase in my opinion. Collectors of the rare coins are fewer then the common ones, IMO.

Good Luck in the hunt! :thumbup:

Offline SANDAC

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2013, 11:16:09 AM »
The 94 small date discussed in that thread I bought from Jim who I believe bought from Arif who owned multiple sets(I believe). I believe it is the only small date so far but I haven't sent them in to be reslabbed and won't bother.
I check my list just now.  Out of the 10 1994 G50Y Comet, 5 are large date, 5 are small date.  For your reference, the NGC numbers of the small date are:
3403213-001, 2761006-004, 2772233-014, 2772233-015, 3307406-005
All PF69.  There are a couple very nice 5-coin slabs

Offline GDG's

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2013, 11:36:20 AM »
I check my list just now.  Out of the 10 1994 G50Y Comet, 5 are large date, 5 are small date.  For your reference, the NGC numbers of the small date are:
3403213-001, 2761006-004, 2772233-014, 2772233-015, 3307406-005
All PF69.  There are a couple very nice 5-coin slabs
I check my list just now.  Out of the 10 1994 G50Y Comet, 5 are large date, 5 are small date.  For your reference, the NGC numbers of the small date are:
3403213-001, 2761006-004, 2772233-014, 2772233-015, 3307406-005
All PF69.  There are a couple very nice 5-coin slabs

Yes the 001 comet was from the set I bought from Jim.

1994 China G50Y Silken Fabric               PF 69 Ultra Cameo NGC  3162918-006
1994 China G50Y Tuned Bells                 PF 69 Ultra Cameo NGC  3162918-005
1994 China G50Y Recording Of Comets PF 69 Ultra Cameo NGC  34032113-001
1994 China G50Y Sailing Masts              PF 69 Ultra Cameo NGC  3405696-001
1994 China G50Y Chain Water Pumps   PF 69 Ultra Cameo NGC  3162918-004

Two other complete sets 93/95 I actually assembled myself. Proved real hard. The 1oz's proving the toughest. Actually I rarely see any 1oz of 1/2oz for sale anywhere(except ag which I don't collect)

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2013, 11:03:03 PM »
I have owned multiples of the 1oz I&D gold sets, but never a single 1/2oz set.  I did buy and sell 30+ 1/2oz coins in 2010-2011, but was never able to complete a single set because very few 1993-1996 sets were broken up.  The 1/2oz singles that I bought in bulk in 2010 were from two hoards of single coins and finding the missing coins was impossible, so I gave up and sold all my singles in 2011.  The 1oz set is also very hard to complete now because prices have dropped almost 50% and those that could afford to buy those coins at $10K-$20K/each don't want to realize losses and sell now.   

I read in another post about the 1992 silver piefort sets and large numbers that were graded relative to the ~1300 approximate mintage. What happened there was one dealer owned a 100 sets in China, I bought 10 from him at around $2500/each, I got the sets and liked the quality, asked for another 20 sets, but he said someone bought him out a day after I had bought my 10 sets.  That buyer then turned all those sets in for grading jumping the pops up dramatically. From my understanding the silver piefort set was never exported to the US in quantity and that is why it is so hard to find it here, most were sold to Taiwan, Japan, Germany or kept in China. Also, notice the piefort set is not found in the red book of Chinese coins, that was another reason very few people were aware of it in the US.

Arif

Offline GDG's

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2013, 08:55:58 AM »
Here is that set of 1/2 Gold I&D coins I mentioned. Beautiful and rare coins. Sets off the envy meter.  N26

 N31 N31 N31 N31 N31
http://www.majesticrarities.com/shop/rare-modern-chinese-mint-coins/invention-discovery-rare-coins/1/

Offline Gilmore

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2013, 12:58:58 AM »
Here is another amazing coin from the series offered for sale on eBay - the 1993 Yin and Yang Philosophy 1 oz Gold coin PF69 (mintage of 888) .

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130855536726?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

The asking price is 17K which is identical to another 69 coin that was auctioned off in China last November. The auction ended at RMB 105K. At the same month a double sealed coin was sold for RMB 85K (USD 13.8K).

Offline Gilmore

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2013, 09:54:11 AM »
Wow! The 1996 silver set in 69 was sold for RMB 16000 (=USD 2600) on Mar-04. Very strong price.

http://www.zhaoonline.com/zhongguodangdaijinyinbi/1994598.shtml

Offline Utah3

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Re: An Impossible Task for Collectors
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2013, 11:11:09 AM »
Great to see that set get some attention.

utah3