Author Topic: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...  (Read 9676 times)

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Offline SANDAC

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Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2013, 09:17:08 PM »
I also removed my coins from capsules and pouch and photographed them before submitting.  I get the best photographs like that.  I also photographed them as soon as I received them.  My original intent was to find out what NCS is able to do, but after a while it became a good habit for a number of reasons.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2013, 11:58:25 PM »
I have been submitting coins with following two latex free rubber bands, I actually like them for their unique color and they cost almost the same as typical rubber bands.  Never had problems with coins developing toning using these rubber bands, that doesn't mean they are 100% sulfur free, but they work.  I use the 3 1/2 x 1/8 size.
http://www.rubberband.com/consumer-products/standard-rubber-bands/antimicrobial-protection.html
http://www.rubberband.com/consumer-products/standard-rubber-bands/latex-free.html

For submitting coins to the grading company, I use the following 2.5x2.5 flips. 
http://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/product/saflips-25x25.html

I prefer to cut all my coins out of OMP and put them in the flips as opposed to letting a receiving clerk at the grading company do it.  Just wash your hands with soap before handling the coins along their edges, don't use white gloves, they will leave lint on the coins and you are more likely to drop the coin.  Watch the video below at 2:00 mark to see how the graders handle your coins, you should handle them the same way.   
http://www.pcgs.com/process.html

Arif

Arif,

I'm glad you reminded people to wash their hands and to handle the coins carefully. However, from the PCGS video clip, I notice none of the graders wear gloves when they handle the coins. Since grading (at NGC) comes after conservation at NCS, if the graders don't wear gloves, how are they going to ensure fingerprints or other contaminants are not left on the coins before being encased? 

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2013, 01:56:27 AM »
The key is to only handle the coin on its edges, the graders never touch the obverse and reverse of the coin, just the edges.  The edges for all these coins are perforated, so no chance for fingerprints.  The bigger concern is leaving oils or sweat behind on the edges of the coin, which can be prevented by first washing your hands with soap and second handling the coins in a cool dry environment, your fingers should always be dry and clean.  The problem with white gloves is two fold, first it is more difficult to handle because the gloves are one size fits all, so chances of a perfect fit are very low, second the gloves can leave trace fibers on the coin or worse may get dirty over time collecting dust or dirty from multiple use, while hands can be cleaned after every 5, 10, 20 coins as needed based on your dryness. 

The final point is do what you are comfortable doing, if handling coins with bare hands terrifies you, let the professionals take your coins out of the PVC for you, if you are comfortable handling coins and think you will take more care removing them from the PVC than the women shown in the receiving section of the video then do it yourself. The reality is the difference between you vs the grading companies doing it is probably trivial, the real benefit is if you do it yourself you can keep all the PVC as future reference to detect fakes.  For me I submit 100+ coins per submission and I can just imagine the frustration on the person cutting open all those PVC pouches, so I rather do it myself as the coins come in very carefully.   

Arif

Offline Honus

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Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2013, 04:11:06 PM »
The key is to only handle the coin on its edges, the graders never touch the obverse and reverse of the coin, just the edges.  The edges for all these coins are perforated, so no chance for fingerprints.  The bigger concern is leaving oils or sweat behind on the edges of the coin, which can be prevented by first washing your hands with soap and second handling the coins in a cool dry environment, your fingers should always be dry and clean.  The problem with white gloves is two fold, first it is more difficult to handle because the gloves are one size fits all, so chances of a perfect fit are very low, second the gloves can leave trace fibers on the coin or worse may get dirty over time collecting dust or dirty from multiple use, while hands can be cleaned after every 5, 10, 20 coins as needed based on your dryness. 

The final point is do what you are comfortable doing, if handling coins with bare hands terrifies you, let the professionals take your coins out of the PVC for you, if you are comfortable handling coins and think you will take more care removing them from the PVC than the women shown in the receiving section of the video then do it yourself. The reality is the difference between you vs the grading companies doing it is probably trivial, the real benefit is if you do it yourself you can keep all the PVC as future reference to detect fakes.  For me I submit 100+ coins per submission and I can just imagine the frustration on the person cutting open all those PVC pouches, so I rather do it myself as the coins come in very carefully.   

Arif

Fantastic post, Arif.   I first needed to get over my own trepidation about handling my gold pandas, and not wanting to make a mistake.   But I realized a few things.  First, those plastic OMP sleeves are never crystal clear, and without taking the coins out I just couldn't get a great view at exactly what I was about to submit to NGC, and what grade I should expect.  I was missing things that I couldn't see through the OMP package, and once I got the coins out I could really judge what I had.  Second, I've had coins come back from NGC with marks that they didn't have when they went in, and given that NGC/PCGS are manned by humans with 5 fingers on each hand just like me, they were just as likely to mishandle a coin as I was so I shouldn't be afraid to do what they do thousands of times a day.    I make sure I have plenty of soft towel-covered surfaces where I work, so that if I ever drop a coin (which I never have) it wouldn't land on a hard floor.  I wash my hands and only handle the coin on its edges.  I wear a medical mask over my nose and mouth, to protect against coughs, sneezes, etc.   And as Arif astutely pointed out, I control the removal of each coin from the PVC and I can save the PVC if I wish.   It's not rocket science, which is good because I'm no rocket scientist!
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline Jay

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Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2013, 06:21:42 PM »
I have seen the hazing problem on gold Pandas as well - usually about 6 months after slabbing.  However, I have never seen it happen on older coins, only brand new current year gold pandas.  It does not seem to happen with all the coins from a batch, just a random few.   

In the past, I have usually sent new issue coins to PCGS in full sealed sheets unopened, but for older coins I always open and examine them first and then use mylar flips, so my theory is that out-gas residue from the fresh original PVC plastic might be a factor.  The plastic chemical smell from new panda sheets is quite noticeable, so something volatile is certainly emanating from that plastic.  The good news is that the haze is easily removed via conservation, but it is rather expensive if you have to crack and resubmit....

A lot can happen once a coin is unsealed and residues are free to react with the oxygen in the air, so perhaps there is a residue that slowly reacts over several months time. In the original seal there is too little oxygen, but once opened the reaction starts.   Same for red spots - I think oxygen, heat and humidity will accelerate their development over time.  Storage in a cool place with some desiccant is a good idea.

Recently, I am conserving fresh new pandas before grading in the hope that any residue will be removed and no haze will appear.  It may take 6-12 months to find out for sure. So far so good on the 2012s..

For those who are worried, I have quite a few PCGS slabbed gold pandas of many dates that have been in cool dry storage for over 5 years and they all still look good as new.  :biggrin:

Jay

Offline Honus

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Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2013, 06:32:31 PM »
Thanks for chiming in Jay....like you, I've seen it primarily on 2006-current gold pandas.  The only exception is a 1998 fractional gold panda (not a coin you want to see it on!), which I've seen in photos from another collector - it has the haze badly, but I believe that's already on its way to PCGS for examination, and it's great to hear additional confirmation that the haze is removable.  That '98 is a beauty, from the photos I've seen, and definitely a prize coin so I'm hoping for good things for the owner.
Eric Liquori
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www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2013, 03:05:46 PM »
i had a pcgs 2011 1/20th i sold it
but when i held my bright led light up to it, it had like a haze on the front of the coin, it was like a smuge only noticeable under bright led light
any ideas of what it was?

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2013, 12:04:15 AM »

For those who are worried, I have quite a few PCGS slabbed gold pandas of many dates that have been in cool dry storage for over 5 years and they all still look good as new.  :biggrin:

Jay

I too have many outstanding eye appeal PCGS coins that have had no issues after years of storage. We see a lot of coins with haze problems on eBay simply because those are ones that people prefer to sell, while keeping the nice ones.  I gladly buy up all the ugly hazed coins and resubmit them for conservation, as I will with coin that was listed at the start of this thread, it came in today and after conservation it will look perfect. 

Arif

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2013, 11:35:49 AM »
Arif or others, what about hazy silver MCC?   Some say NCS can remove it some say they cannot.  What is your opinion?.........

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2013, 02:26:37 PM »
On silver white spots and black spots usually won't come off at NCS.  However, it is still possible to get 69 grade with those spots, but mostly like you will end up with 68.  Black toning spread lightly across the coin almost always comes off can easily grade 69.  I haven't seen PVC style haze on coins because most silver comes in capsules which protect the coins from typical yellow haze you see on gold coins.

Arif