Author Topic: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...  (Read 9111 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Panda Halves

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1273
  • Karma: 45
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 10:34:20 AM »
They aren't rubber-band shaped streaks are they?
 N20

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2013, 10:43:00 AM »
No, they're your basic, average, run-of-the-mill copper spots like you've seen a million times before.   There's no pattern to their appearance or location.  They're as random, and varied in size, as on every other gold coin I've seen with copper spots.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2013, 11:08:45 AM »
Do the ngc pics show the spots?

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2013, 11:34:24 AM »
Great question Chris, I hadn't even looked at the NGC photos since getting the coins back.   Unfortunately, I've put almost everything in the vault, including the two coins I was referring to in my original post so I don't have the NGC cert numbers.  However, I just found a 3rd coin that came back with copper spots....and I have that in hand, and you can see the copper spots in the NGC photos:

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=2783054-001

It's a 1983 1oz, and it received an MS67 grade.  First, there are more copper spots on the back that you can't see, that are in the mirror fields and are hidden by the dark nature of the fields in the photo.   Second, you'll also notice the fields to the top right of the temple - they're absolutely filthy, with what looks like water spots or something.   The coin did not go to NGC that way, but that has to be the reason for the MS67 grade.  Because even I can tell that the eye appeal on the reverse is lousy.   The obverse, by the way, is beautiful...no copper spots, no spotting, nothing, although it doesn't look as shiny clean as it did originally.  Most of the issues are on the reverse, and this isn't what the coin looked like when it went in.   I expected no lower than an MS68, if not an MS69, on this when I sent it in.   

Whatever the spots are, I don't think they'll be a problem to remove, and the copper spots are easy so I'm not concerned.  If I seem nonchalant and un-angry about it, it's because the rest of the batch all got MS69 grades so I was pretty happy with that particular submission, and I'm just going to re-submit this 1983 again.   It's too nice a coin to leave looking like this.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2013, 11:43:58 AM »
Two more questions;

We're the coins submitted in original mint sealed plastic or in capsules or raw in flips?

We're the coins submitted to Ncs?

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2013, 11:53:26 AM »
Two more questions;

We're the coins submitted in original mint sealed plastic or in capsules or raw in flips?

We're the coins submitted to Ncs?

- raw in flips (they were all mint sealed originally when I got them, but I remove those in really dirty grungy OMP if it prevents me from seeing the true state of the coin).  The 1983 was removed from OMP and placed in brand new, not-previously-used, non-PVC flip after I examined it.

- No, I saw no reason to send to NCS...the coin had no verdigris, no PVC, no copper spotting, no holder residue of any kind, no toning in the fields, etc.   
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2013, 12:16:59 PM »
Poly bags are extremely moisture resistant, and should be no different than submitting in original plastic. So I don't think this is the issue. I want to give the rubber band issue more thought and get back to.

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2013, 12:23:20 PM »
I appreciate any input you can offer Chris.  I should also mention that I am very careful about the environment I'm in when I remove the coin from the OMP...I always wear a medical mask over my nose and mouth to prevent issues from coughing, sneezing, etc.  I also hold the coin upright as much as possible, to avoid air particulates from falling onto it, though I'm sure it's an imperfect effort.  And I examine each coin under 10x magnification after it's placed in the flip, so that if I did accidentally land a piece of particulate on the coin, it's noticed before submitted.  I only use fresh, unused flips, and I dispose of any that look like they may have been exposed to dust or other debris prior to use.  For what it's worth!
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2013, 12:28:26 PM »
What I am thinking about is that sulfur is a compounding agent in the process of producing rubber.  It is possible, but I need to give it more thought, is that the rubber band resulted in sulfur being out-gassed, that was trapped in the bag.  The sulfur reacted with the impurities in the gold.

Offline Panda Halves

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1273
  • Karma: 45
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2013, 12:51:50 PM »
 This is fun....
Q: Were the two coins that developed spots the bread on the outside of the entire rubber-banded submission sandwich stack you sent in, thus being exposed to more rubber band surface area?
 N23 :001_rolleyes:

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2013, 12:57:42 PM »
This is fun....
Q: Were the two coins that developed spots the bread on the outside of the entire rubber-banded submission sandwich stack you sent in, thus being exposed to more rubber band surface area?
 N23 :001_rolleyes:

I just checked the NGC submission record, and actually yes they were.   They were the top and bottom coins in the stack.   Hmmm....Chris and PH, you guys may be onto something.   The rubber bands by themselves may not be the problem....I'm sure zillions of customers have used rubber bands before me.   But maybe the combination of rubber bands in a sealed plastic bag is what did it? 
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2013, 02:21:16 PM »
Here is your answer...yes, the bands are the culprit;

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ed077p328A


Offline dobedo

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Karma: -4
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2013, 03:12:36 PM »
Impressive research and detective work here. Thank you all for contributed to the final analysis. Now all I have to do is to get rid of all rubber bands in my house!

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2013, 03:35:46 PM »
Here is your answer...yes, the bands are the culprit;

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ed077p328A



Wow Chris, much appreciated.   So the rubber bands themselves aren't good....but add them to a sealed bag, AND something I couldn't see on the two coins in question, and  you get a recipe for overnight copper spots.    I think sundevilco is right, I'll tie the bundle with cotton string, that's a great suggestion.    This thread turned out to be a real eye opener, more of an education than I expected.  Kudos to all who pitched in!
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
  • Karma: 202
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2013, 08:56:12 PM »
I have been submitting coins with following two latex free rubber bands, I actually like them for their unique color and they cost almost the same as typical rubber bands.  Never had problems with coins developing toning using these rubber bands, that doesn't mean they are 100% sulfur free, but they work.  I use the 3 1/2 x 1/8 size.
http://www.rubberband.com/consumer-products/standard-rubber-bands/antimicrobial-protection.html
http://www.rubberband.com/consumer-products/standard-rubber-bands/latex-free.html

For submitting coins to the grading company, I use the following 2.5x2.5 flips. 
http://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/product/saflips-25x25.html

I prefer to cut all my coins out of OMP and put them in the flips as opposed to letting a receiving clerk at the grading company do it.  Just wash your hands with soap before handling the coins along their edges, don't use white gloves, they will leave lint on the coins and you are more likely to drop the coin.  Watch the video below at 2:00 mark to see how the graders handle your coins, you should handle them the same way.   
http://www.pcgs.com/process.html

Arif