Author Topic: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...  (Read 9687 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« on: February 11, 2013, 01:29:23 PM »
Just posted on the 'Bay, 2006 1/2oz gold, PCGS MS69.  If the photos are accurate, the coin is very hazy and foggy, which other collectors far more experienced than myself have theorized as "off-gassing" from the PCGS holder.  The seller in this case doesn't mention anything about it in the description, I'm posting it in case members here are considering the coin.  It's very possible that NCS (or PCGS) conservation techniques can remove the "fog", but I don't know that to be a certainty:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271154311793&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 02:10:37 PM »
Here is a link with some great pics of this happening, pls pan down:

http://www.goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?27399-PCGS-SLABS-TONING!


Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 02:54:43 PM »
Chris, thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that thread.   It appears - if I'm interpreting everything properly - that there's more than one issue happening.  One is toning, and I think I've seen that also.  I have a '93 gold panda small date 1/4oz in a PCGS holder, and it has a pretty orange color - it looks very toned, but the toning covers the coin 100% so it doesn't look splotchy.  The coin just looks more orange-yellow than yellow, but not at all unattractive, so I've never had an issue with it.   

The other issue is the milky-white fogginess and that is just plain ugly.  I've seen it multiple times, in person, and it's a deal-breaker for me. 

Thanks again.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 03:08:15 PM »
No problem.

Two things may be happening at the same time. One, the holder is not airtight (did you read the story in the thread from the Hurricane Sandy collector) and two, it is possible that the label itself is giving off sulfur gas as it deteriorates (both paper and ink) due to exposure from harmful gases (this is a theory of mine).  I do not know what type of paper PCGS uses for labels.  I doubt the actual plastic holder is the cause.

This theory may make sense, because when NGC grades comics, they place micro-chamber paper inside the comic book sheets to absorb gases that are emitted as paper deteriorates over time.

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 03:32:29 PM »
I hadn't even considered paper being the culprit, but you may be right. 

I did read the Hurricane Sandy post....sad to read, terrible what happened.  I was in Homestead after Hurricane Andrew, so I understand.

It's funny he mentioned that he actually liked the colored toning on the gold - I think I'm the same way, but clearly in the minority.   I'd love to know why in some cases the coins tone in colors, sometimes attractively, and others with that milky haze.   Whatever it is, I'm glad there's ongoing discussion - that eventually has to lead to action or progress.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2604
  • Karma: 82
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 05:11:03 PM »
I hadn't even considered paper being the culprit, but you may be right. 

I did read the Hurricane Sandy post....sad to read, terrible what happened.  I was in Homestead after Hurricane Andrew, so I understand.

It's funny he mentioned that he actually liked the colored toning on the gold - I think I'm the same way, but clearly in the minority.   I'd love to know why in some cases the coins tone in colors, sometimes attractively, and others with that milky haze.   Whatever it is, I'm glad there's ongoing discussion - that eventually has to lead to action or progress.

I have a couple of evenly toned graded gold coins that I think are very pretty, kind of like the red color an old cent develops. Haze, OTOH, is a disaster.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 05:18:34 PM »
I have a couple of evenly toned graded gold coins that I think are very pretty, kind of like the red color an old cent develops. Haze, OTOH, is a disaster.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Peter, any chance you can post a pic of those gold coins - I'm curious to see how they've toned, if you have the time.   I have to get to the vault to pull mine out, but I'd be happy to do the same with my favorite 2 or 3 heavily toned gold coins.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline PCGS-ASIA

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 177
  • Karma: 15
    • PCGS-ASIA
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 12:06:53 AM »
I'm glad you posted this.

I have a board member sending one in, and perhaps we can find a way to figure out what is going on.

The specimen I will see soon looks treatable.

I would also posit that NO holder is airtight....

My base guess it is something on the coin itself.  Its not the holder - and I do find the theory about the flip
interesting enough to investigate. However, there is a lot of plastic between the flip and the coin I'll check the "seal"
so to speak.


Please try to alert me to issues like this (and others!) when they come up - I'm like the guy from the government:
"I am from the government and I am here to help you".

Keep me posted and I'll keep you posted.....thanks!



Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2013, 09:38:48 AM »
That's excellent PCGS-Asia, glad to have you as a resource here, and looking forward to learning your findings on the coin en route to you. 
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: 204
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2013, 11:24:08 AM »

My base guess it is something on the coin itself.  Its not the holder - and I do find the theory about the flip
interesting enough to investigate. However, there is a lot of plastic between the flip and the coin I'll check the "seal"
so to speak.


In opinion the problem is with the inner gaskets found in the old PCGS holders.  What I noticed was many of the coins with the non-edge view gaskets tended to develop yellow and green haze very quickly, 6 months to 1 year of storage.  Once PCGS went to edge-view gaskets the problem was minimized but not eliminated.  Off the cuff I would estimate that the old style PCGS gaskets 10%-15% of the PCGS slabbed gold pandas have issues, with the new gaskets 3-4% have issues and NGC holders 1% have issues.   

Another possible root cause could be the air quality in the building due to the local environment, it would very interesting to compare air quality at NGC office with PCGS office to see if there are different levels of contamination in the air. Even more interesting is comparing contamination levels in China offices for these two companies vs their US locations.

Thank you for looking into this, you are a great asset to this forum.

Arif

Offline Panda Halves

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1273
  • Karma: 45

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 01:55:32 PM »
I have to believe that if the gasket were the source of the problem, there would be a much higher rate of incidence of issues, since every coin (both gold and silver) would be exposed to the same root cause, and experience similar issues.

That being said, airborne contaminants are everywhere, and even the best filtering systems cannot keep out harmful gases such as chlorine and sulfur (clean room tests have proved this).  I also have to believe the air quality in Hong Kong is much different than in CA or FL.

One must keep in mind that since holders are not airtight, they are susceptible to all sorts of environmental challenges.  Just think of coins life cycle as it moves from a collectors hand to a grading company and back.  There are issues regarding changes in air pressure that can cause the slab  to expand and contract during transportation, especially during flight via US mail or another carrier, or just natural changes in air pressure as it moves across the country (or even changes in air pressure while storing your coins can vary due to atmospheric systems) 

Also, there can be extreme temperature changes that have to be considered and changes in air quality.  Air quality in Denver vs. Los Angeles vs. NYC can vary significantly depending on different times of the year.   

All of these things can contribute to issues down the road, and I am not sure there is one solution to the problem.  But proper steps can at least minimize some of the challenges.  Also, these issues are not unique.   These same corrosion challenges have been faced by  the electronics, automotive and aerospace industries, which is why many companies ship vital component parts using intercept shrink wraps or bags, or totes.

Obviously if I had my druthers, every coin shipped to and from a grading company should be in an Intercept bag for protection. While this is a biased view, I know this may not be realistic.  However I only hope that by making collectors aware of these issues will at least help focus their attention on proper storage.

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 02:19:28 PM »
I have to believe that if the gasket were the source of the problem, there would be a much higher rate of incidence of issues, since every coin (both gold and silver) would be exposed to the same root cause, and experience similar issues.

That being said, airborne contaminants are everywhere, and even the best filtering systems cannot keep out harmful gases such as chlorine and sulfur (clean room tests have proved this).  I also have to believe the air quality in Hong Kong is much different than in CA or FL.

One must keep in mind that since holders are not airtight, they are susceptible to all sorts of environmental challenges.  Just think of coins life cycle as it moves from a collectors hand to a grading company and back.  There are issues regarding changes in air pressure that can cause the slab  to expand and contract during transportation, especially during flight via US mail or another carrier, or just natural changes in air pressure as it moves across the country (or even changes in air pressure while storing your coins can vary due to atmospheric systems) 

Also, there can be extreme temperature changes that have to be considered and changes in air quality.  Air quality in Denver vs. Los Angeles vs. NYC can vary significantly depending on different times of the year.   

All of these things can contribute to issues down the road, and I am not sure there is one solution to the problem.  But proper steps can at least minimize some of the challenges.  Also, these issues are not unique.   These same corrosion challenges have been faced by  the electronics, automotive and aerospace industries, which is why many companies ship vital component parts using intercept shrink wraps or bags, or totes.

Obviously if I had my druthers, every coin shipped to and from a grading company should be in an Intercept bag for protection. While this is a biased view, I know this may not be realistic.  However I only hope that by making collectors aware of these issues will at least help focus their attention on proper storage.


Somewhat tangential to the main crux of the thread, but totally related to what you're saying Chris...on each of my last 2 NGC submissions (groups of 10 and 12 coins), I had one coin come back with a whole bunch of copper spots.  These were both coins that I examined under direct lighting, at 10x magnification, and were completely copper-spot free.  Yet only 2 weeks later they were returned by NGC, encapsulated and looking otherwise dandy, but with copper spots galore.   And we're not talking about little tiny dots that you need a magnifier to see...they came back with spots large enough to easily see with the naked eye.   So within the two week period from when they left my house until they returned, they were exposed to something that caused multiple copper spots that took just days to appear and grow.   Yet, it only happened to 2 of the 22 total coins that were submitted...the other 20 are as flawless as the day I submitted them.  I can't explain it, and I doubt NGC could either, though I haven't called them.  Maybe I will.   If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.  It sure seems weird.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline PCGS-ASIA

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 177
  • Karma: 15
    • PCGS-ASIA
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 02:12:33 AM »
The copper exists as impurities in the alloy - a little lump or chunk that just didn't mix well.

Why they would immediately react is the question.  Interesting stuff.  Salt air?

Modern minting processes are creating headaches for everyone.  Stay tuned.

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2013, 10:27:24 AM »
The copper exists as impurities in the alloy - a little lump or chunk that just didn't mix well.

Why they would immediately react is the question.  Interesting stuff.  Salt air?

Modern minting processes are creating headaches for everyone.  Stay tuned.

I did end up calling NGC yesterday, not to complain, just to see if they had any thoughts.   They transferred the call to NCS, and two different people said they'd never heard of multiple copper spots appearing out of the blue on a spot-free coin in under two weeks.  They had me describe exactly how I do my submissions, and when I told them that I always placed the rubber-banded bundle of coins-in-flips inside a ziploc baggie, they told me to not use ziploc baggies anymore.   They jumped on that detail immediately, thinking that somehow moist air is being trapped in the baggie with the coins, but I use fresh baggies out of the box and I'm in Arizona (dry climate) so I don't know how that could be the issue but that's what they said.  Otherwise, they were stumped.   
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline Panda Halves

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1273
  • Karma: 45
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 10:34:20 AM »
They aren't rubber-band shaped streaks are they?
 N20

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2013, 10:43:00 AM »
No, they're your basic, average, run-of-the-mill copper spots like you've seen a million times before.   There's no pattern to their appearance or location.  They're as random, and varied in size, as on every other gold coin I've seen with copper spots.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2013, 11:08:45 AM »
Do the ngc pics show the spots?

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2013, 11:34:24 AM »
Great question Chris, I hadn't even looked at the NGC photos since getting the coins back.   Unfortunately, I've put almost everything in the vault, including the two coins I was referring to in my original post so I don't have the NGC cert numbers.  However, I just found a 3rd coin that came back with copper spots....and I have that in hand, and you can see the copper spots in the NGC photos:

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=2783054-001

It's a 1983 1oz, and it received an MS67 grade.  First, there are more copper spots on the back that you can't see, that are in the mirror fields and are hidden by the dark nature of the fields in the photo.   Second, you'll also notice the fields to the top right of the temple - they're absolutely filthy, with what looks like water spots or something.   The coin did not go to NGC that way, but that has to be the reason for the MS67 grade.  Because even I can tell that the eye appeal on the reverse is lousy.   The obverse, by the way, is beautiful...no copper spots, no spotting, nothing, although it doesn't look as shiny clean as it did originally.  Most of the issues are on the reverse, and this isn't what the coin looked like when it went in.   I expected no lower than an MS68, if not an MS69, on this when I sent it in.   

Whatever the spots are, I don't think they'll be a problem to remove, and the copper spots are easy so I'm not concerned.  If I seem nonchalant and un-angry about it, it's because the rest of the batch all got MS69 grades so I was pretty happy with that particular submission, and I'm just going to re-submit this 1983 again.   It's too nice a coin to leave looking like this.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2013, 11:43:58 AM »
Two more questions;

We're the coins submitted in original mint sealed plastic or in capsules or raw in flips?

We're the coins submitted to Ncs?

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2013, 11:53:26 AM »
Two more questions;

We're the coins submitted in original mint sealed plastic or in capsules or raw in flips?

We're the coins submitted to Ncs?

- raw in flips (they were all mint sealed originally when I got them, but I remove those in really dirty grungy OMP if it prevents me from seeing the true state of the coin).  The 1983 was removed from OMP and placed in brand new, not-previously-used, non-PVC flip after I examined it.

- No, I saw no reason to send to NCS...the coin had no verdigris, no PVC, no copper spotting, no holder residue of any kind, no toning in the fields, etc.   
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2013, 12:16:59 PM »
Poly bags are extremely moisture resistant, and should be no different than submitting in original plastic. So I don't think this is the issue. I want to give the rubber band issue more thought and get back to.

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2013, 12:23:20 PM »
I appreciate any input you can offer Chris.  I should also mention that I am very careful about the environment I'm in when I remove the coin from the OMP...I always wear a medical mask over my nose and mouth to prevent issues from coughing, sneezing, etc.  I also hold the coin upright as much as possible, to avoid air particulates from falling onto it, though I'm sure it's an imperfect effort.  And I examine each coin under 10x magnification after it's placed in the flip, so that if I did accidentally land a piece of particulate on the coin, it's noticed before submitted.  I only use fresh, unused flips, and I dispose of any that look like they may have been exposed to dust or other debris prior to use.  For what it's worth!
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2013, 12:28:26 PM »
What I am thinking about is that sulfur is a compounding agent in the process of producing rubber.  It is possible, but I need to give it more thought, is that the rubber band resulted in sulfur being out-gassed, that was trapped in the bag.  The sulfur reacted with the impurities in the gold.

Offline Panda Halves

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1273
  • Karma: 45
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2013, 12:51:50 PM »
 This is fun....
Q: Were the two coins that developed spots the bread on the outside of the entire rubber-banded submission sandwich stack you sent in, thus being exposed to more rubber band surface area?
 N23 :001_rolleyes:

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2013, 12:57:42 PM »
This is fun....
Q: Were the two coins that developed spots the bread on the outside of the entire rubber-banded submission sandwich stack you sent in, thus being exposed to more rubber band surface area?
 N23 :001_rolleyes:

I just checked the NGC submission record, and actually yes they were.   They were the top and bottom coins in the stack.   Hmmm....Chris and PH, you guys may be onto something.   The rubber bands by themselves may not be the problem....I'm sure zillions of customers have used rubber bands before me.   But maybe the combination of rubber bands in a sealed plastic bag is what did it? 
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2013, 02:21:16 PM »
Here is your answer...yes, the bands are the culprit;

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ed077p328A


Offline dobedo

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Karma: -4
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2013, 03:12:36 PM »
Impressive research and detective work here. Thank you all for contributed to the final analysis. Now all I have to do is to get rid of all rubber bands in my house!

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2013, 03:35:46 PM »
Here is your answer...yes, the bands are the culprit;

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ed077p328A



Wow Chris, much appreciated.   So the rubber bands themselves aren't good....but add them to a sealed bag, AND something I couldn't see on the two coins in question, and  you get a recipe for overnight copper spots.    I think sundevilco is right, I'll tie the bundle with cotton string, that's a great suggestion.    This thread turned out to be a real eye opener, more of an education than I expected.  Kudos to all who pitched in!
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: 204
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2013, 08:56:12 PM »
I have been submitting coins with following two latex free rubber bands, I actually like them for their unique color and they cost almost the same as typical rubber bands.  Never had problems with coins developing toning using these rubber bands, that doesn't mean they are 100% sulfur free, but they work.  I use the 3 1/2 x 1/8 size.
http://www.rubberband.com/consumer-products/standard-rubber-bands/antimicrobial-protection.html
http://www.rubberband.com/consumer-products/standard-rubber-bands/latex-free.html

For submitting coins to the grading company, I use the following 2.5x2.5 flips. 
http://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/product/saflips-25x25.html

I prefer to cut all my coins out of OMP and put them in the flips as opposed to letting a receiving clerk at the grading company do it.  Just wash your hands with soap before handling the coins along their edges, don't use white gloves, they will leave lint on the coins and you are more likely to drop the coin.  Watch the video below at 2:00 mark to see how the graders handle your coins, you should handle them the same way.   
http://www.pcgs.com/process.html

Arif

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2265
  • Karma: 118
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2013, 09:17:08 PM »
I also removed my coins from capsules and pouch and photographed them before submitting.  I get the best photographs like that.  I also photographed them as soon as I received them.  My original intent was to find out what NCS is able to do, but after a while it became a good habit for a number of reasons.

Offline dynamike51

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 713
  • Karma: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2013, 11:58:25 PM »
I have been submitting coins with following two latex free rubber bands, I actually like them for their unique color and they cost almost the same as typical rubber bands.  Never had problems with coins developing toning using these rubber bands, that doesn't mean they are 100% sulfur free, but they work.  I use the 3 1/2 x 1/8 size.
http://www.rubberband.com/consumer-products/standard-rubber-bands/antimicrobial-protection.html
http://www.rubberband.com/consumer-products/standard-rubber-bands/latex-free.html

For submitting coins to the grading company, I use the following 2.5x2.5 flips. 
http://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/product/saflips-25x25.html

I prefer to cut all my coins out of OMP and put them in the flips as opposed to letting a receiving clerk at the grading company do it.  Just wash your hands with soap before handling the coins along their edges, don't use white gloves, they will leave lint on the coins and you are more likely to drop the coin.  Watch the video below at 2:00 mark to see how the graders handle your coins, you should handle them the same way.   
http://www.pcgs.com/process.html

Arif

Arif,

I'm glad you reminded people to wash their hands and to handle the coins carefully. However, from the PCGS video clip, I notice none of the graders wear gloves when they handle the coins. Since grading (at NGC) comes after conservation at NCS, if the graders don't wear gloves, how are they going to ensure fingerprints or other contaminants are not left on the coins before being encased? 

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: 204
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2013, 01:56:27 AM »
The key is to only handle the coin on its edges, the graders never touch the obverse and reverse of the coin, just the edges.  The edges for all these coins are perforated, so no chance for fingerprints.  The bigger concern is leaving oils or sweat behind on the edges of the coin, which can be prevented by first washing your hands with soap and second handling the coins in a cool dry environment, your fingers should always be dry and clean.  The problem with white gloves is two fold, first it is more difficult to handle because the gloves are one size fits all, so chances of a perfect fit are very low, second the gloves can leave trace fibers on the coin or worse may get dirty over time collecting dust or dirty from multiple use, while hands can be cleaned after every 5, 10, 20 coins as needed based on your dryness. 

The final point is do what you are comfortable doing, if handling coins with bare hands terrifies you, let the professionals take your coins out of the PVC for you, if you are comfortable handling coins and think you will take more care removing them from the PVC than the women shown in the receiving section of the video then do it yourself. The reality is the difference between you vs the grading companies doing it is probably trivial, the real benefit is if you do it yourself you can keep all the PVC as future reference to detect fakes.  For me I submit 100+ coins per submission and I can just imagine the frustration on the person cutting open all those PVC pouches, so I rather do it myself as the coins come in very carefully.   

Arif

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2013, 04:11:06 PM »
The key is to only handle the coin on its edges, the graders never touch the obverse and reverse of the coin, just the edges.  The edges for all these coins are perforated, so no chance for fingerprints.  The bigger concern is leaving oils or sweat behind on the edges of the coin, which can be prevented by first washing your hands with soap and second handling the coins in a cool dry environment, your fingers should always be dry and clean.  The problem with white gloves is two fold, first it is more difficult to handle because the gloves are one size fits all, so chances of a perfect fit are very low, second the gloves can leave trace fibers on the coin or worse may get dirty over time collecting dust or dirty from multiple use, while hands can be cleaned after every 5, 10, 20 coins as needed based on your dryness. 

The final point is do what you are comfortable doing, if handling coins with bare hands terrifies you, let the professionals take your coins out of the PVC for you, if you are comfortable handling coins and think you will take more care removing them from the PVC than the women shown in the receiving section of the video then do it yourself. The reality is the difference between you vs the grading companies doing it is probably trivial, the real benefit is if you do it yourself you can keep all the PVC as future reference to detect fakes.  For me I submit 100+ coins per submission and I can just imagine the frustration on the person cutting open all those PVC pouches, so I rather do it myself as the coins come in very carefully.   

Arif

Fantastic post, Arif.   I first needed to get over my own trepidation about handling my gold pandas, and not wanting to make a mistake.   But I realized a few things.  First, those plastic OMP sleeves are never crystal clear, and without taking the coins out I just couldn't get a great view at exactly what I was about to submit to NGC, and what grade I should expect.  I was missing things that I couldn't see through the OMP package, and once I got the coins out I could really judge what I had.  Second, I've had coins come back from NGC with marks that they didn't have when they went in, and given that NGC/PCGS are manned by humans with 5 fingers on each hand just like me, they were just as likely to mishandle a coin as I was so I shouldn't be afraid to do what they do thousands of times a day.    I make sure I have plenty of soft towel-covered surfaces where I work, so that if I ever drop a coin (which I never have) it wouldn't land on a hard floor.  I wash my hands and only handle the coin on its edges.  I wear a medical mask over my nose and mouth, to protect against coughs, sneezes, etc.   And as Arif astutely pointed out, I control the removal of each coin from the PVC and I can save the PVC if I wish.   It's not rocket science, which is good because I'm no rocket scientist!
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline Jay

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
  • Karma: 19
    • Rare Panda Coins Inc
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2013, 06:21:42 PM »
I have seen the hazing problem on gold Pandas as well - usually about 6 months after slabbing.  However, I have never seen it happen on older coins, only brand new current year gold pandas.  It does not seem to happen with all the coins from a batch, just a random few.   

In the past, I have usually sent new issue coins to PCGS in full sealed sheets unopened, but for older coins I always open and examine them first and then use mylar flips, so my theory is that out-gas residue from the fresh original PVC plastic might be a factor.  The plastic chemical smell from new panda sheets is quite noticeable, so something volatile is certainly emanating from that plastic.  The good news is that the haze is easily removed via conservation, but it is rather expensive if you have to crack and resubmit....

A lot can happen once a coin is unsealed and residues are free to react with the oxygen in the air, so perhaps there is a residue that slowly reacts over several months time. In the original seal there is too little oxygen, but once opened the reaction starts.   Same for red spots - I think oxygen, heat and humidity will accelerate their development over time.  Storage in a cool place with some desiccant is a good idea.

Recently, I am conserving fresh new pandas before grading in the hope that any residue will be removed and no haze will appear.  It may take 6-12 months to find out for sure. So far so good on the 2012s..

For those who are worried, I have quite a few PCGS slabbed gold pandas of many dates that have been in cool dry storage for over 5 years and they all still look good as new.  :biggrin:

Jay

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2013, 06:32:31 PM »
Thanks for chiming in Jay....like you, I've seen it primarily on 2006-current gold pandas.  The only exception is a 1998 fractional gold panda (not a coin you want to see it on!), which I've seen in photos from another collector - it has the haze badly, but I believe that's already on its way to PCGS for examination, and it's great to hear additional confirmation that the haze is removable.  That '98 is a beauty, from the photos I've seen, and definitely a prize coin so I'm hoping for good things for the owner.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline Dr650rob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 179
  • Karma: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2013, 03:05:46 PM »
i had a pcgs 2011 1/20th i sold it
but when i held my bright led light up to it, it had like a haze on the front of the coin, it was like a smuge only noticeable under bright led light
any ideas of what it was?

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: 204
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2013, 12:04:15 AM »

For those who are worried, I have quite a few PCGS slabbed gold pandas of many dates that have been in cool dry storage for over 5 years and they all still look good as new.  :biggrin:

Jay

I too have many outstanding eye appeal PCGS coins that have had no issues after years of storage. We see a lot of coins with haze problems on eBay simply because those are ones that people prefer to sell, while keeping the nice ones.  I gladly buy up all the ugly hazed coins and resubmit them for conservation, as I will with coin that was listed at the start of this thread, it came in today and after conservation it will look perfect. 

Arif

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2254
  • Karma: 37
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2013, 11:35:49 AM »
Arif or others, what about hazy silver MCC?   Some say NCS can remove it some say they cannot.  What is your opinion?.........

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: 204
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: Another PCGS gold panda with off-gassing...
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2013, 02:26:37 PM »
On silver white spots and black spots usually won't come off at NCS.  However, it is still possible to get 69 grade with those spots, but mostly like you will end up with 68.  Black toning spread lightly across the coin almost always comes off can easily grade 69.  I haven't seen PVC style haze on coins because most silver comes in capsules which protect the coins from typical yellow haze you see on gold coins.

Arif