Poll

Assume that you submitted the exact same coin today versus one year ago.  Do you think it would receive a higher, lower, or identical numerical grade

The same grade today as it did one year ago.  I have noticed no change in the grading standards.
4 (18.2%)
A higher grade today than it did one year ago.  Their grading standards seem to have become less strict. (more MS69s and MS70s now)
5 (22.7%)
A lower grade today than it did one year ago.  Their grading standards seem to have become more strict.  (fewer MS69s and MS70s now)
13 (59.1%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: Have the grading standards for modern Chinese coins changed at NGC?  (Read 3767 times)

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Offline Birdman

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I'm curious to tally the collective experience of individuals who have been submitting to NGC for more than a year.  Base your answer on the results of your own submissions, not what you have heard from others.

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: Have the grading standards for modern Chinese coins changed at NGC?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2013, 03:47:19 PM »
Very interesting subject, it will be interesting to see how many respond and the results. How about a poll on PCGS grading?

Offline Obsidian

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Re: Have the grading standards for modern Chinese coins changed at NGC?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2013, 04:54:14 PM »
The poll is just starting but I think partly why we are seeing less MS69s is because fewer and fewer raw coins can be found in the US.  Many that come into coin shops go directly to China and may not be graded or are poorer quality and people don't bother grading them.  Also, a lof of the lower quality coins are a larger portion of what is left ungraded.

It would also be interesting to see of the members here that go around looking for coins at local coin shops....are the number of coins you find increasing or decreasing?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 04:57:36 PM by Obsidian »

Offline davidt3251

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Re: Have the grading standards for modern Chinese coins changed at NGC?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2013, 05:36:45 PM »
Hi Obsidian,

Sorry, I dont agree. I have almost exclusively graded only OMP coins many of which had been purchased  back in 2002 when I started collecting and MCC were cheap. I had not selected my coins for grade at that time so they are random and thats why when I make a random NGC submission (as opposed to a hand-selected, screened submission) I am now shocked by the lower grades. Most of my coins were bought before the grading craze caused resealing to become more prevalent. I have noticed that groups of OMP coins where I would have been certain to get a MS70 about 10% of the time and MS69s 80% of the time is becoming around 60% MS69 and the rest are lower grades with under 5% MS70.

Consistency isnt NGCs forte apparently and its painful to get MS67s and watch numerous MCCs in older holders being sold due to 69 grades when they look worse than the 67 I just received back. I hear many collectors changing their approach now that NGC has increased NCS fees and gives out lower grades. The grading economics arent there for many collectors, which is a shame because that will lead to what you correctly predict-less coins graded. Why would I grade my rubbed nose OMP Munich gold 1988 panda and risk a 65 when I can buy a rubbed nose 68 from a dealer and leave the 65 in OMP. The sad part is that the remaining ungraded OMP coins may further degrade due to the chemicals in the OMP.

I really dont understand what NGC expects to gain from doing this. I dont understand their 'business model' and I use that term very loosely.

-David

-David

Offline comeaux

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Re: Have the grading standards for modern Chinese coins changed at NGC?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2013, 07:29:01 PM »
Yea so I have to agree with David … NGC has definitely gotten stricter over the last year or possibly just more inconsistent.

In fact about a year ago or so I made a post here on CCF about this issue as at that time I had been submitting a lot of coins and getting 69’ and some 70’s then it’s like I hit a wall and began getting more 68’s.

I do believe that my previous coins graded 69 from a few years ago are deservingly 69 grade as they are extremely nice coins but now I think some of the 68’s could easily be 69’s

Maybe NGC doesn’t want to give out too many 69’s on high value coins because of the “guarantee” they have to stand behind? I’m not saying this is the case but it’s a possibility.

Oddly this exact topic has been discussed recently on the forums for graded books … a lot of people are complaining about stricter grading as well as grading times which is up to 5 months on “economy” submissions.

Overall I have always been pleased with NGC and their service but a little more consistency would be nice.

Offline Honus

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Re: Have the grading standards for modern Chinese coins changed at NGC?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2013, 01:29:39 PM »
Just got back my latest NGC submission of 9 gold pandas, and got (5) MS69, (3) MS68 and (1) MS67.    All were from sealed mint packages.

The MS67 isn't a surprise - the coin (a 2006 1/4) had some die marks in the reverse fields, and I had a feeling the eye appeal factor would take a hit.  So no disappointment there.

Of the (3) MS68 coins, one is a 2008 1/4 with a very faint line (not in the finish, but something dark on the finish) on the little bear that can only be seen faintly at 10x magnification.   The coin is otherwise a gem.  That faint line must be the reason for the MS68, though you can't see it with the naked eye.

The other 2 MS68 coins were 1984 1oz gold Pandas.  One has some tiny marks on the denomination that can be seen at 10x magnification, so that must have been the issue on that.  But the other one looks fantastic - maybe a couple of tiny die marks up near the "1oz" that you can only see under magnification.  It has no rub or marks on the Panda's head, and has a nice strike.  I thought it would be an MS69, but 1984 is a tough year for 1oz gold Pandas....there are now more MS68 coins than MS69 according to the pop report.   Check out these pix:








Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Have the grading standards for modern Chinese coins changed at NGC?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2013, 12:32:18 AM »
I have data that shows NGC grading standard hasn't changed much with respect to the silver 5 yuan panda, except the 1995 LD.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7637.msg47268#msg47268

Offline Pandagongzi

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Re: Have the grading standards for modern Chinese coins changed at NGC?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2013, 01:09:13 AM »
I think it depends on who and when coins were graded.

My first batch of 5 coins sent to NGC in Jan.  3 were OMP.  2 were in capulses for last 3 years.  All came back MS69.  They were graded on Thursday.

2nd batch of 5 sent to NGC in Mar.  All 5 were OMP.  3 back 67, 1x68, 1x69.  They were graded on Wed and returned to me fairly quick.  It was quickest turn around time for me ever.  Looks like they were rush to get things done.

Both batch were sent in with the free coupon.  NGC charged me full price on 2nd batch even with coupon attached.  I had to contact custom service to get money back.  Not sure if this had anything to do with lower grading?

Offline yej0001

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I really dont understand what NGC expects to gain from doing this. I dont understand their 'business model' and I use that term very loosely.
-David

I agree with the observations that NGC has gotten much stricter over the last year.  I have some newly graded silver pandas that look better than older ones with higher grades that I bought in slab a few years ago.  There is at least one grade difference (e.g. the new 67 is at par with the old 68, and the new 68 at par with the older 69).  I don't have any old 70, so no experience there

Here is my hypothesis on the new NGC's business model.  PCGS has a reputation being a tougher grader than NGC, therefore they coins have enjoyed a price premium grade-by-grade over NGC, in many coin segments (not so much in Chinese MCC). NGC has now gained a very stronger footing in Chinese market, thanks to their foresight, while PCGS has been slow (or being a little arrogant) in responding to the market forces. At this point, NGC may see the "looser" perception as a bottleneck for them to get to the next level in competition with PCGS.  In the past, seasoned collectors often thought that PCGS coins had more value, despite their dull appearance.  Now, if NGC grades are perceived as valuable as PCGS' for a collector, why not go with NGC, if he/she not only gets a more eye-appealing coin, but also with as much intrinsic value?  

It would be interesting to see whether NGC can hold up this new practice, now gold/silver prices are tanking.  Grading company's business is likely going to slow down in a declining market.  For one, I am now more reluctant to send my OMPs for grading when their prices are dropping.  Why not save the $17 grading fee to buy a ounce of silver, possibly next year?

Offline exchange

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For one, I am more reluctant to send my OMPs to a grading company when the price is dropping.  I would rather save the $17 grading fee, which may buy a ounce of silver next year


Could that be the reason to loosen on the grading because the price of gold is going down. If more and more people think no point sending in their coins to grade because gold is down, that could dramatically impact NGC's sales and if survival is at stake, they may "temporary" privately change their policy to attract customers. Once the word is out that NGC has been grading a lot more 70's, their profits would increase leading to another cycle of policy changes...

It would be interesting to see if coins with grades of 69 and 70 have increased since April 2013.


exchange