Author Topic: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals  (Read 15626 times)

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Offline poconopenn

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2012, 09:19:16 PM »
RAREMEDAL.

Can you tell us the weight of your 1984 original brass medal? If possible, the weight of other sets too. Thanks.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2012, 10:23:25 PM »
OK, the broken line is real silver and the connected line are silver plate and not another variety of real silver.  Does this conclusion then verify graded real silver pagodas are genuine except for the few that got thru NGC? 

We seem to be getting much closer, although I would to see RareMedal confirm Poconopenn's
description of the broken line with no pimple being the solid original 1984 medal.

I know some things are lost a bit in translation from RareMedal, can anybody ask him to clarify this issue directly and maybe settle this mystery once and for all?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline RAREMEDAL

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2012, 07:44:50 AM »
补充注解:“断线版套银章”是指:“全套银章中,有一枚的背面有断线”(套:指的是“全套”,并不是指“包裹”、“套上”或“镀层”的意思),这个“断线”,属于铸造模具版别的不同。在钱币鉴定中,图案的不同,有时可以判定真假和年代,但有时只是真品的不同批次和模具版别罢了,要具体问题具体分析。有一种古塔银章其中的《开元寺塔》一枚,背面有断线,我认为这种银章也是1984年原版铸造的银章(90%银,实心银),是不同的版别。类似的情况,在中国金银币中并不少见,比如:1992年《1994年第17届冬奥会——高台滑雪》银币,就有类似的“断线版”版别银币。判断币章材质和真假,“图案的不同”并不是唯一的因素。精确重量、表面感觉等也是很重要的,要多方面综合考虑,即使两种东西看起来几乎完全一样,但有经验的鉴定家仍然可看出不同的感觉,比如会说“这个看着不舒服”、“感觉不像当年的东西”等等。因此,举例:如果一种纪念章原版是1980年铸造的,如果用相同的模具时隔十几年后在1997年重新铸造,有时也是可以感觉出表面观感差异的。正如赫拉克利特(Heraclitus)说过的:“人不能两次踏入同一条河流”(No man ever steps in the same river twice),事物都会不断变化,硬币的铸造受多方面因素制约,也不会全都完全一样。我在此列举的《中国古塔》银章版别,是比较明显和带有一定普遍性的版别,但如果继续细致入微区分的话,还有诸如“背面6点钟小塔处模压小缺陷版”(原版90%纯银)、“背面图案偏中心部位粗糙缺陷版”(后铸镀金镀银)、“背面突出的小塔表面可见明显斜纹版”(后铸镀银)、“背面线弱打”(后铸喷砂镀银)、“喷砂强弱不同”等等不同,不在逐一列举。如果选择收藏,我认为:1984年原版古塔精制铜章、1984原版银章(背图无断线)、1984原版银章(其中一枚背有断线),这三种都是很好的选择,都是珍贵的。至于其它的版本,均疑似后铸,不像原版,并不少见。
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 07:48:23 AM by RAREMEDAL »
RAREMEDAL — Feng Jingjing sir. I come from He'nan of China.
I love chinese rare medals and golden and silver coins.
My E-mail:2209925761@qq.com
My blog:  http://blog.sina.com.cn/zhongyuanfeng555

Offline RAREMEDAL

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2012, 08:22:12 AM »
镀银雾面镜面对比版铜章
RAREMEDAL — Feng Jingjing sir. I come from He'nan of China.
I love chinese rare medals and golden and silver coins.
My E-mail:2209925761@qq.com
My blog:  http://blog.sina.com.cn/zhongyuanfeng555

Offline RAREMEDAL

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2012, 08:32:50 AM »
多方数据表明:1984原版银章实际重量大于22克,中国的各种金银币书籍标注“20克(90%纯银,含银18克)”是错误的;1990年中国钱币有线公司背英文双鱼版银章,在一些书籍中的数据也有错误。NGC评级古塔银章标签标注重量时,统一按图录数据,标注为”S20G“,是错误的。搞硬币鉴定、做评级,首先要对钱币精确称重并如实标注,否则会犯不少错误。一些拍卖公司,不加验证的情况下,把古塔铜章也标注为20克,也是错误的,铜章重量不到20克。
RAREMEDAL — Feng Jingjing sir. I come from He'nan of China.
I love chinese rare medals and golden and silver coins.
My E-mail:2209925761@qq.com
My blog:  http://blog.sina.com.cn/zhongyuanfeng555

Offline RAREMEDAL

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2012, 08:53:22 AM »
以下是原版古塔银章的资料,一张1988年的古塔银章销售发票,注:发票上把纪念章,写成“币”,不合适。此资料表明:古塔银章,在时隔4年之后,在1988年底尚未销售完毕,可能是库存,出货单位是“中国造币公司上海特约经理部”,售价为:“人民币280元”,是比较贵的,当时中国大陆的国民收入并不高,这280元可能要相当于很多人2个多月的工资。上世纪八十年代初期,上海造币厂的精制铜纪念章也是很贵的,不要轻视这些早期原版的铜章、不要认为这些铜章很廉价!一套小铜章,也相当于将近半个月的工资,这些东西主要是供出口外销和在上海大的商店和造币公司的门市中销售,购买者主要是有钱人和外国游客,我收藏有一张1980年开具的上海造币厂精制小铜章的销售收据,显示售价是2枚,含盒子,共11元人民币。这非常贵(在1980年,中国大陆很多城市工人的工资每月在30元以下)。


附:中国国家统计局的统计年鉴:“1988年是我国物价上涨幅度最大、通货膨胀明显加剧的一年。”   

  另附:1988年的银价:1988-12-16 美元:608.000   英镑:333.800   参考网址:http://www.lbma.org.uk/pages/?page_id=54&title=silver_fixings&show=1988&type=daily 

               
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 09:01:18 AM by RAREMEDAL »
RAREMEDAL — Feng Jingjing sir. I come from He'nan of China.
I love chinese rare medals and golden and silver coins.
My E-mail:2209925761@qq.com
My blog:  http://blog.sina.com.cn/zhongyuanfeng555

Offline RAREMEDAL

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2012, 12:17:37 PM »
下图是赝品,粗制滥造,不仅毫无雕刻感,连汉字都能写错,“登封”的“登”字,下面少两点儿。表面质感更不对头了,跟原版真品大相径庭。
注:下图搜集自网络,对原照片经过了校对颜色。
RAREMEDAL — Feng Jingjing sir. I come from He'nan of China.
I love chinese rare medals and golden and silver coins.
My E-mail:2209925761@qq.com
My blog:  http://blog.sina.com.cn/zhongyuanfeng555

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2012, 12:55:18 PM »
镀银雾面镜面对比版铜章

Translating the embedded Chinese text in this picture:

[Label at top:] New study of Shanghai Mint Pagoda commemorative medals
[Label below medals:]  Silver plated commemorative medals  Obverse:frosting and mirrored field, quality of frosting not good, many set were examined and the raised areas appear defective or with rubbing.

[text below:]
This type of medals with correct weight using the "plate before striking" technique are restrike.  NGC had previously graded several such set and designate them with "S20G" for 20g silver medal.  They are now correctly designated as "silver plated brass".  Separately on the reverse the curved line has the "small pimple" defect, that's not minted with the original mold. [please check my translation, original text is:个別背面左边弧线上有"小疙瘩" 缺陷标志, 非原版所鋳.]

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2012, 01:01:29 PM »
补充注解:“断线版套银章”是指:“全套银章中,有一枚的背面有断线”(套:指的是“全套”,并不是指“包裹”、“套上”或“镀层”的意思),这个“断线”,属于铸造模具版别的不同。在钱币鉴定中,图案的不同,有时可以判定真假和年代,但有时只是真品的不同批次和模具版别罢了,要具体问题具体分析。有一种古塔银章其中的《开元寺塔》一枚,背面有断线,我认为这种银章也是1984年原版铸造的银章(90%银,实心银),是不同的版别。类似的情况,在中国金银币中并不少见,比如:1992年《1994年第17届冬奥会——高台滑雪》银币,就有类似的“断线版”版别银币。判断币章材质和真假,“图案的不同”并不是唯一的因素。精确重量、表面感觉等也是很重要的,要多方面综合考虑,即使两种东西看起来几乎完全一样,但有经验的鉴定家仍然可看出不同的感觉,比如会说“这个看着不舒服”、“感觉不像当年的东西”等等。因此,举例:如果一种纪念章原版是1980年铸造的,如果用相同的模具时隔十几年后在1997年重新铸造,有时也是可以感觉出表面观感差异的。正如赫拉克利特(Heraclitus)说过的:“人不能两次踏入同一条河流”(No man ever steps in the same river twice),事物都会不断变化,硬币的铸造受多方面因素制约,也不会全都完全一样。我在此列举的《中国古塔》银章版别,是比较明显和带有一定普遍性的版别,但如果继续细致入微区分的话,还有诸如“背面6点钟小塔处模压小缺陷版”(原版90%纯银)、“背面图案偏中心部位粗糙缺陷版”(后铸镀金镀银)、“背面突出的小塔表面可见明显斜纹版”(后铸镀银)、“背面线弱打”(后铸喷砂镀银)、“喷砂强弱不同”等等不同,不在逐一列举。如果选择收藏,我认为:1984年原版古塔精制铜章、1984原版银章(背图无断线)、1984原版银章(其中一枚背有断线),这三种都是很好的选择,都是珍贵的。至于其它的版本,均疑似后铸,不像原版,并不少见。
I'll be away the rest of the day, but I think this is worth translating.  Apparently I did not parse the phrase correctly.  What raremedal meant to say regarding 断线版套银章 was <断线版套>银章 (broken-line variety set, silver medal), but I read it as <断线版>套银章 (broken-line variety, silver-jacketed medal).  Oops.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2012, 01:32:11 PM »
以下是原版古塔银章的资料,一张1988年的古塔银章销售发票,注:发票上把纪念章,写成“币”,不合适。此资料表明:古塔银章,在时隔4年之后,在1988年底尚未销售完毕,可能是库存,出货单位是“中国造币公司上海特约经理部”,售价为:“人民币280元”,是比较贵的,当时中国大陆的国民收入并不高,这280元可能要相当于很多人2个多月的工资。上世纪八十年代初期,上海造币厂的精制铜纪念章也是很贵的,不要轻视这些早期原版的铜章、不要认为这些铜章很廉价!一套小铜章,也相当于将近半个月的工资,这些东西主要是供出口外销和在上海大的商店和造币公司的门市中销售,购买者主要是有钱人和外国游客,我收藏有一张1980年开具的上海造币厂精制小铜章的销售收据,显示售价是2枚,含盒子,共11元人民币。这非常贵(在1980年,中国大陆很多城市工人的工资每月在30元以下)。


附:中国国家统计局的统计年鉴:“1988年是我国物价上涨幅度最大、通货膨胀明显加剧的一年。”   

  另附:1988年的银价:1988-12-16 美元:608.000   英镑:333.800   参考网址:http://www.lbma.org.uk/pages/?page_id=54&title=silver_fixings&show=1988&type=daily 

               


Terrific information and perspective! 

Thanks RareMedal!
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2012, 03:19:47 PM »
补充注解:“断线版套银章”是指:“全套银章中,有一枚的背面有断线”(套:指的是“全套”,并不是指“包裹”、“套上”或“镀层”的意思),这个“断线”,属于铸造模具版别的不同。在钱币鉴定中,图案的不同,有时可以判定真假和年代,但有时只是真品的不同批次和模具版别罢了,要具体问题具体分析。有一种古塔银章其中的《开元寺塔》一枚,背面有断线,我认为这种银章也是1984年原版铸造的银章(90%银,实心银),是不同的版别。类似的情况,在中国金银币中并不少见,比如:1992年《1994年第17届冬奥会——高台滑雪》银币,就有类似的“断线版”版别银币。判断币章材质和真假,“图案的不同”并不是唯一的因素。精确重量、表面感觉等也是很重要的,要多方面综合考虑,即使两种东西看起来几乎完全一样,但有经验的鉴定家仍然可看出不同的感觉,比如会说“这个看着不舒服”、“感觉不像当年的东西”等等。因此,举例:如果一种纪念章原版是1980年铸造的,如果用相同的模具时隔十几年后在1997年重新铸造,有时也是可以感觉出表面观感差异的。正如赫拉克利特(Heraclitus)说过的:“人不能两次踏入同一条河流”(No man ever steps in the same river twice),事物都会不断变化,硬币的铸造受多方面因素制约,也不会全都完全一样。我在此列举的《中国古塔》银章版别,是比较明显和带有一定普遍性的版别,但如果继续细致入微区分的话,还有诸如“背面6点钟小塔处模压小缺陷版”(原版90%纯银)、“背面图案偏中心部位粗糙缺陷版”(后铸镀金镀银)、“背面突出的小塔表面可见明显斜纹版”(后铸镀银)、“背面线弱打”(后铸喷砂镀银)、“喷砂强弱不同”等等不同,不在逐一列举。如果选择收藏,我认为:1984年原版古塔精制铜章、1984原版银章(背图无断线)、1984原版银章(其中一枚背有断线),这三种都是很好的选择,都是珍贵的。至于其它的版本,均疑似后铸,不像原版,并不少见。
Here is a translation. It is a bit rough as this is quite technical in places
Supplementary notes:
"The set with the broken line" is indicative of a full silver set of which only one piece has said broken line." "Full Set" does not necessarily indicate "box, packaging, or plating."
This "broken line" is considered a variety resulting from the mint die state. In appraising coins, when the relief is not the same this can sometimes indicate if the coin is genuine or not or when it was produced, however sometimes it simply indicates different die states or batches of genuine pieces.
One variety of the ancient pagoda (the Kaiyuan pagoda) has a broken line on the reverse. I believe this is an actual variety of a 1984 Silver original pagoda (90% solid silver).
This type of phenomenon in Chinese gold and silver commemorative numismatics is actually quite commonplace.
For example 1992 and 1994 17th Winter Olympics Alpine Skier silver coins, also have a broken line variety.
When evaluating the quality and authenticity of a medal the design of the relief is certainly not the sole determining metric. Accurate weight and surface conditions are also very important. Even when two things appear to look almost identical in nature, one must comprehensively consider multi-faceted aspects.
For example, two experienced apreaisers may have conflicting opinions such as "this piece makes me feel uncomfortable" or "this piece doesn't look typical for the date."
Therefore as an example, a commemorative medal minted in 1980 is re-struck in 1997 using the same die, sometimes the difference in the die can still be distinguished.
Just as Heraclitus says, "no man ever steps in the same river twice," objects are incessantly changing, and multiple factors combine to affect the surface state coin dies so that none are completely the same. I cite this "Chinese Ancient Pagoda" silver medal variety as a definitive example of pervasive variation.
However, if one wishes to continue to meticulously differentiate, there is a variety where there is a small unclear spot at the 6'oclock location below the small temple on the reverse side (on the original 90% silver pagodas).
In the middle of the temple relief on the reverse side a coarse spot was on the die (on re-struck gold and silver plated pieces) an obvious 'twill patterned' spot protrudes on the relief of the small temple. On re-strikes of silver plated pieces the strike is also particularly weak. Later strikes of silver-plate are sand blasted and the sand-blasting technique is inconsistent as they were not produced one-at-a-time.
If one were looking to collect these, I would recommend the clearly struck 1984 brass medals, 1984 silver medals (without reverse broken line), 1984 original silver medals (with one piece having the broken line).
As for other editions, they are all suspect as re-strikes.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2012, 03:51:45 PM »
多方数据表明:1984原版银章实际重量大于22克,中国的各种金银币书籍标注“20克(90%纯银,含银18克)”是错误的;1990年中国钱币有线公司背英文双鱼版银章,在一些书籍中的数据也有错误。NGC评级古塔银章标签标注重量时,统一按图录数据,标注为”S20G“,是错误的。搞硬币鉴定、做评级,首先要对钱币精确称重并如实标注,否则会犯不少错误。一些拍卖公司,不加验证的情况下,把古塔铜章也标注为20克,也是错误的,铜章重量不到20克。

Multiple sources of data indicate: the actual weight of the original 1984 Silver Pagoda medal exceeds 22 grams in weight. Several editions of Chinese Gold and Silver Catalogs are annotated with "20 grams" (90% pure silver with a silver content of 18 grams)
This is erroneous.
This error stems from data concerning the 1990 Chinese LLC edition of goldfish with two fish on the reverse.
When NGC appraised these pieces they completely relied on data that was published in these books. Those slabs which indicate "S20G" are in error.
When accurately appraising and grading coins it is imperative to appraise them first accurately in terms of weight and grade according to the facts else you will make several mistakes.
Several auction companies have sold ancient pagodas without testing and verification and have marked them as "20g."
This is a mistake.
It is the brass medal that weighs in at under 20g.

Offline NumiKat

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2012, 05:51:19 PM »
Interesting information that Raremedal has provided, but many questions remain. The presence of a large bulge/pimple on the reverse doesn't seem to be decisive. For instance, not all of the gold-plated pagoda medals have a large pimple (see e.g., 3630019-001, 3630019-003 Songyue Temple with small/no pimple versus 3630019-002 Songyue Temple with large pimple).

Also, it's still unclear how Raremedal's brass set fits in with the others. In his picture "D", the tower 3rd from the left has a curved line extending from its bottom with two noticeable bumps/pimples. But these bumps aren't present on any of the other pagoda types, including the solid silver 1984 pagodas.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2012, 06:32:42 PM »
Thank you for clarifying your previous post. 断线版套银章 is referred to “broken-line silver medal set” not “broken-line silver-encased medal”.

However, IMO, there is no unbroken-line silver set ever made. The broken-line set was the only silver set made by China Mint.

The two NGC graded unbroken-line sets (3299509-015-022) are highly questionable and IMO, they may be silver plated or counterfeit if the medal weighs more than 20 gm.

Attached first picture is copied from picture posted by Gilmore and second picture is the enlarged picture for the reverse of Gilmore’s medal. The third picture is copied from coinstat set and fourth picture is the enlarged picture of the reverse of coinstat’s medal. Both pictures of their sets can be found in here:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5564.105

The weight of Gilmore’s set is about 15.7 gm while coinstat set is about 16.1 gm. The difference in weight may be related to the thickness of silver plate. This difference in weight is in consistence with the fact that the coinstat set has a better frosted surface than Gilmore set. As shown in the pictures, these two silver plated sets were made with two different dies. The same die was used to produce all four plated medals in their respective set.

Here is the interesting part of these two NGC graded unbroken-line sets. The reverse of Songyue temple medal (3299509-015-016) is identical to Gilmore’s silver plated set, while the reverse of other three medals (3299509-017-022) are identical to coinstat set as shown in Picture 3 & 4 respectively. The weight difference between silver and silver plated set is at least 6 gm. It is unbelievable that NGC can make such mistake to grade these 8 medals without checking the weight or noticing the design differences. IMO, NGC has done a very bad job in grading pagoda set and will affect its business in the future.

It should be noted that the reverses of broken-line silver medal set are not identical to each other and were made with different dies. Clearly, there are two different silver plated sets in the market place and majority is the Gilmore version which is being graded by NGC. The coinstat set is the rare version and IMO, it is genuine and may be original.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2012, 06:33:14 PM »
There still remains at least one glaring inconsistency, maybe SANDAC can help by doing his super-duper super-imposing of images to best show the issue I see:

When the photo of RareMedal's  "D" 1984 Genuine Brass medal is superimposed and compared to say, a broken-line tiny pimple / no pimple which is assumed now to be original 1984 solid silver, there is a big difference in the shape of the curved line which has the pimple.  In the Brass "D" medal the line curves much further away from the tower (under his red circle) and in the assumed silver medal it hugs the tower closer and ends much closer.

If the 1984 Brass and 1984 Solid Silver used the same dies, this would not be possible. Rare Medal: does this fit in with your understanding. Were different dies used for Brass and Silver and is this Broken Line/ small pimple medal original solid silver 1984? Or is this Broken Line/  small pimple medal but another year, maybe clad or plated? Poconopenn?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 06:36:57 PM by Hipanda »
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