Author Topic: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals  (Read 15590 times)

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Offline RAREMEDAL

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【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« on: December 30, 2012, 08:22:26 AM »
古塔原版铜章很稀少,现在市面常见的是后铸版镀金镀银铜章。中国大陆市场目前还发现了低仿的古塔铜章(有镜面和喷砂对比效果)赝品。以下是新的研究成果和发现。受到了本论坛朋友的图示启发,将其丰富和完善。NGC曾经评级的那套Brass古塔章,很有可能并不是1984年原版的,可能是后铸的,上海造币厂运用了“先镀后压”工艺,这样压铸出来的镀金铜章,表面有镜面和喷砂对比效果(金鱼铜章也有类似境遇,也有喷砂版的后铸品),中国大陆网上,我见过好几套。本人收藏有正宗的1984年原版古塔精制铜章,细节和整体表面感觉,与之是不同的。建议以后NGC要注意到这一点。评级前要先称重、标签上的年份别乱标。后铸品不建议标注“(1984)”。


« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 08:41:15 AM by RAREMEDAL »
RAREMEDAL — Feng Jingjing sir. I come from He'nan of China.
I love chinese rare medals and golden and silver coins.
My E-mail:2209925761@qq.com
My blog:  http://blog.sina.com.cn/zhongyuanfeng555

Offline pandamonium

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2012, 09:28:21 AM »
Fwang:  could you translate please?............

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2012, 11:56:32 AM »
I'll translate the text embedded in the pictures.
First picture,  4 medals are marked with A, B, C, and D:
arrows are pointed to the small pimple for A, B, C.  D has no pimple
annotation for A: silver plated brass medal variety 1, no frosting
annotation for B: gilt brass medal variety 1, no frosting
annotation for C: brass medal with frosting
annotation for D: rare 1984 original brass medal with frosting

Text below the pictures:
Currently there are 7 varieties of the China Pagoda medal.  They are: 1984 original faultless silver medal, broken-line silver-encased medal, frosted silver-plated medal (some rubs on raised surface), and the four types of brass medal pictured above.

The three brass Pagoda marked with "A", "B", "C" have the same mold for the reverse side.  Quite possibly they are not the original 1984 version, but minted in later year.  Labelling "1984" on graded coins are not recommended.  For the brass medal in "C", while it has the effect of frosting on mirrored field, it does not look like the original.  Not sure whether it has a plated gold layer or uses the "plated before striking" technique.

Similar situation also apply to the Goldfish.  There are 9 known varieties.  There are: 1984 original proof brass medal, two types of "single goldfish" in obverse, 1990 silver medal with "double goldfish" in obverse,  two types of gilt brass without frosting, two types of silver plated brass with weak or no frosting, restrike brass medal (with frosting appearance).

Second picture annotation:
Rare 1984 original brass medal

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2012, 01:46:24 PM »
Clearly the most definitive information to come out yet on these two medals.

Basically, confirming Poconopenn's and another guys' earlier analysis over the prior couple of years.

So, all "pimple" and "broken line" both plated?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline NumiKat

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2012, 02:35:35 PM »
It is strange--the picture that Raremedal posted of his set 'D' seems different from the 4 types recognized by NGC, including the solid silver 1984 pagoda set. Unlike Raremedal's pagodas, the solid silver pagodas also have the small bump/pimple on the leftmost curve, even though the bump is more subtle (e.g., NGC 3546002-123 and 3487660-018). Also, the 3rd tower from the left with the large cross on top seems different. In Raremedal's set D, the left "shoulder" of the tower is square and horizontal, while in the other four types (including the solid silver) the left shoulder is rounded and sloped.

Could Raremedal's set of brass medals be a 5th type, or possibly a restrike?

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2012, 03:10:49 PM »

Currently there are 7 varieties of the China Pagoda medal.  They are: 1984 original faultless silver medal, broken-line silver-encased medal, frosted silver-plated medal .... or uses the "plated before striking"

This issue is raised again, and notice the clear differences in description : "silver-encased" vs "silver plated". This is not minor, and it is not an error.  Please see Poconopenn's past posts of the ramifications in detection this difference presents. I'd say it again, but for some reason nobody wants to hear it, but thankfully people listen when Poconopenn says it.

The ramifications are that with an "encased then struck" medal or coin, the silver layer can be so thick as to avoid detection with usual methods, as opposed to merely plated.


Also, it would be good to get further clarification of the importance of the "pimple"/ bump.
Does the presence of any bump at all no matter if slight, indicate "not solid silver"? Raremedal described the real solid silver  "1984 original fautless" and I tend to take his description as written.

"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2012, 03:34:50 PM »
This issue is raised again, and notice the clear differences in description : "silver-encased" vs "silver plated". This is not minor, and it is not an error. 

The exact wording raremedal used is 断线版套银章 which I translated into "broken-line silver-encased medal".  It could be silver-encapsulated or something-wrapped-in-silver.  This description applies to all NGC-graded silver pagoda except one.  It is unclear to me what is the core that was wrapped in silver, nor the purity of the silver wrapper.  Silver wrapper can be assessed non-destructively with XRF, but core will need destructive analysis. 

I'm now ready to pay $200 for a NGC graded broken-line Pagoda of any grade which I will crack out of the slab, weight it, send in for XRF, and cut it in half.  I will report the result in full in CCF.  Please PM if you have one for me.  While I'm at it, I'm also interested in silver-plated Pagoda, silver goldfish, and silver-plated goldfish for destructive analysis.  I don't care about their grades, but they need to be NGC-certified.  I need to think a while about what I'm willing to pay.

PS, the NGC numbers for the brass Pagoda are 3678875-001 to -004.  I believe raremedal used the -004 as example.  It is not the best one, IMO.




Offline pandamonium

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2012, 03:57:11 PM »
None of my graded silver pagodas have a pimple/bump on the line..  Good information.   .............

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 04:07:17 PM »
That would be terrific to see- can you please post photos or NGC links?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2012, 05:44:06 PM »
My comment about this pagoda set posted in the following thread is in consistency with the observation made by RAREMEDAL, except for the unbroken line silver set. The unbroken line silver set, IMO, may not be genuine.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7507.30

The NGC graded two unbroken line sets (3299509-015-022) may not be silver. IMO, they are fake silver plated sets or mixed fake and genuine plated medals in the same submission. It has the signature defect, a bulged spot at the left line, similar to plated set graded by NGC as well as additional defects which are not seen in plated or broken line silver sets. IMO, the broken line set is the genuine silver set. It is true the broken line set also has a very small  dot on top of the line, about the same place, but not the same size and shape as plated sets. Usually, the reproduction of a genuine coin by using a genuine coin to produce the negative production die will increase the size of bugled spot as well as the line thickness. It should also be noted, the design of reverse of four medals is not identical for silver set, while the plated sets is the same. SANDAC has provided many NGC cert. # for pagoda set in other thread. I have checked 27 sets. They are all have broken line on the reverse of Kaiyuan medal, except two sets mentioned above.

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3299509-015


Offline Hippanda

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 05:53:35 PM »
Interesting, thank you Poconopenn..

3299509-017 has solid line, but small bugle?  Or is that bulge?

Either way same thingy...bugle, bulge, dot, pimple,


 :001_smile:



« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 06:09:12 PM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2012, 06:00:58 PM »
Poconopenn, would you classify the following as " broken line, small bugle" : genuine solid original?



"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2012, 06:06:50 PM »
Yes, it is broken line, small bulge, genuine silver original medal. The location of the bugled spot is on the top of the line, not on the left side of the line.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 06:10:33 PM by poconopenn »

Offline pandamonium

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2012, 08:13:58 PM »
OK, the broken line is real silver and the connected line are silver plate and not another variety of real silver.  Does this conclusion then verify graded real silver pagodas are genuine except for the few that got thru NGC?  Is this the end of the real silver graded pagoda debate?  Sometimes more information leads to more questions..  How many other early MCCs will be debated?  The MCC puzzle is a fascinating mystery!....................

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: 【F】《The Chinese Ancient Towers 》brass medals
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2012, 08:44:30 PM »
... The MCC puzzle is a fascinating mystery!....................

All this show is there was no planning, no direction, no organization, no goal, no quality assurance, no leadership, ... in the mint during the early days.