Author Topic: Coin Storage and Preservation  (Read 39945 times)

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Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2014, 12:02:34 PM »
Thanks for the +1.

When I first read this last night I was sort of indifferent to the "spot removal" service.  The cost is only $5.  However I think this service is actually a disservice to the collector, for several reasons.

Based upon my experience and research, PCGS slabs tend to spot more so than NGC slabs.  Is PCGS recognizing this by providing a spot removal service?  Also, we know that a spot existing at the time of grading will reduce the grade.  The fact that PCGS will remove a 70 coin from its holder, try and remove spots and if unsuccessful, will place the coin back in its holder with its original grade, I think is wrong;

"If the spots do not come out, we will still reholder you coin in its original grade. It will just be a spotted coin of that grade"

The coin with a spot is no longer a 70.  Why PCGS would reholder a coin with a spot and provide the same grade is a disservice to the unsuspecting collector.  If they are to remove a coin from the holder and provide some level of conservation, the coin should be regraded.  Will they provide a 70 grade label with a "spot removal" reference??

Many new collectors might be unaware of an experienced dealer trying to sell 70 grade coins with spots that PCGS tried to remove. The new collector might think a 70 is a 70  no matter what.

Also, how many times can someone submit the same coin for spot removal?  Finally, the PCGS grade guarantee does not cover environmental damage, which a spot would fall under. Therefore the unsuspecting collector could not even collect  on the guarantee!!

In my mind this service is wrong  N26

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2014, 10:36:55 AM »
IMO, PCGS is courageous in coming out with this policy.  Regarding white spots, PCGS (and NGC) is in a difficult position: it is a ticking time defect that can happen anytime, nobody seems to understand it and it is really not the grading company's fault.  PCGS can raise the grading fee or refuse to grade 0.999 silver coins, but that's bad for business.  PCGS already refused to honor the grade guarantee w.r.t white spots which no doubt upset many collectors already.  Reading between the lines, PCGS seems to treat the white spots as a "toning" issue, i.e., white spots, like toning, do not affect grade; it is cosmetic, so if collectors want spots removed, PCGS will do it but their grades remain the same whether or not the spot removal were successful.  I think it is a tough sell and PCGS likely will get beat up badly over this.  Yet I give PCGS kudos for taking a public stand on this difficult issue.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2014, 11:59:34 AM »
Reading between the lines, PCGS seems to treat the white spots as a "toning" issue, i.e., white spots, like toning, do not affect grade; it is cosmetic, so if collectors want spots removed, PCGS will do it but their grades remain the same whether or not the spot removal were successful. 

I have to disagree with the above statement.  PCGS stated in their policy: "When initially grading modern silver issues, PCGS will deduct for spots that are already evident"

This issue I have is that if a coin develops spots after grading, it should no longer be worthy of a 70 grade (consistent with PCGS policy).  If the coin is resubmitted for any type of conservation the coin should be regraded.   Many things can happen to a coin once it is removed from its holder.  Apart from the obvious finger prints, dropping etc., the coin is also exposed once again to environmental factors.  The fact that PCGS retains a 70 grade for spots that cannot be removed is unbelievable.  I only hope that the slab has a special label indicating this.

Personally, once I receive a 70 back from grading, I never ever resubmit, not even for a label change for variety attribution.  The less hands that touch a 70 the better.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2014, 10:21:16 AM »
Here is a link to an excellent research paper discussing the impurities in gold.  Generally, silver ranks as the highest impurity. This should give some clues as to why spots form on gold coins that are exposed to harmful gases.  Also the research paper discussed how impurities will congregate into one area during the refining process.  This will also help explain why some coins only experience spots that are grouped together, as opposed to covering the entire surface....yes, some coins are covered in spots, but many only have one or two.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/28199650/Origin-and-Effects-of-Impurities-in-High-Purity-Gold

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2014, 09:45:16 AM »
China's smog is getting worse....very bad for coins, and oh yeah, people too.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/china-39-smog-now-20-135346198-cbs.html


Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #80 on: March 02, 2014, 09:02:57 AM »
I think this coin speaks volumes about improper storage techniques.





Offline fractalfate

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #81 on: March 02, 2014, 12:23:31 PM »
Chris-
Do I understand you correctly in that you are implying the cause of this coin's atypically and ridiculously impaired "PF69" surface is secondary to improper storage techniques? Would you mind quoting some of the volumes that this coin speaks of as evidence of this implication, or do you just have a photo of an impaired coin and are theorizing that the impairment is secondary to storage conditions? Please be precise.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2014, 12:26:52 PM »
Take a look at NGC file photo of this coin which is taken soon after it is graded
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3615616-001

PS, looking at my own record NGC 3615xxx are graded around Feb 2012.  So something bad happened to it in the last 2 years.

Offline jleary

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #83 on: March 02, 2014, 04:39:24 PM »
Being new to this forum I find this thread very informative.

Offline fractalfate

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #84 on: March 02, 2014, 08:02:55 PM »
Was this coin conserved by NCS prior to grading? I'm primarily questioning the pattern of the toning. It almost seems like it formed in a pattern/shape that would be left by some type of residue left over from the evaporation of a liquid on the surface of the coin. What I'm trying to say is that it may not be the storage conditions that were the proximate cause of this change in condition over such a (relatively) short period of time. I personally doubt whether even a unprotected silver coin kept in a herpaterium would look that toned after just two years... Something else is going on in this particular instance besides (or in addition to) poor storage conditions, don't you think?

Offline NBM

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #85 on: March 02, 2014, 08:36:31 PM »
Was this coin conserved by NCS prior to grading? I'm primarily questioning the pattern of the toning. It almost seems like it formed in a pattern/shape that would be left by some type of residue left over from the evaporation of a liquid on the surface of the coin.

This was my first thought... botched conservation?  :confused1:

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #86 on: March 02, 2014, 10:52:15 PM »
The holder is typical for coin graded in China during the show. IMO, the significant degradation of surface was caused by improper handling during the grading and poor storage condition may accelerate the degradation process.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #87 on: March 02, 2014, 10:58:57 PM »
The holder is typical for coin graded in China during the show.
Mind spilling the beans on the tell-tale signs?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #88 on: March 02, 2014, 11:26:18 PM »

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Coin Storage and Preservation
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2014, 10:37:08 PM »
Chris-
Do I understand you correctly in that you are implying the cause of this coin's atypically and ridiculously impaired "PF69" surface is secondary to improper storage techniques? Would you mind quoting some of the volumes that this coin speaks of as evidence of this implication, or do you just have a photo of an impaired coin and are theorizing that the impairment is secondary to storage conditions? Please be precise.

It is clear from the NGC file photo that this coin exhibited zero corrosion shortly after it was graded which was the basis for my statement.  Whether it was conserved or graded during a show, I have no idea.  But I do know that NGC holders are not air-tight.   Here is a quote directly from NGC's website.  This is a similar statement by PCGS.


Q. After encapsulation, can the appearance of a coin change over time?
 

A. Yes. In independent testing, the NGC security holder has been proven as the most effective grading service holder on the market today in minimizing the effects of oxidation. Even so, the NGC holder is not 100% airtight. Therefore oxidation, a normal process where air reacts with the surface of a coin, can continue after encapsulation. To further limit environmental hazards, we recommend storing your coins in a temperature-controlled, low-humidity area such as a bank safety deposit box. Be sure to check with your bank for rules and regulations concerning the storage of these items.
 
As a result, harmful gases (what NGC refers to as "air", however it is not "air" that is the cause, since O2 is a very stable gas) can and will penetrate the holder and react with the surface of a silver coin.  Also, corrosion can take different forms, especially on silver since it is a very reactive metal.

Finally, I am advocating that everyone should take time and understand the importance of proper storage techniques.  As much time as we all invest in researching coins, we should spend just as much understanding how to properly care for them.