Author Topic: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety  (Read 16657 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 1003

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 3
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2017, 10:32:55 AM »
Any idea does the "high 2" variety come from the Shenyang mint or Shanghai mint?

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
  • Karma: 203
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2017, 09:45:46 PM »
If you look at the picture on the NGC website you notice it has curved flats on both sides of temple of heaven stairs.  That means the coin is from Shanghai mint.  While it is clear the coin was made by the Shanghai mint, what is not clear is whether the mint produced a normal LD coin that was later modified by private mint or individual with a larger date superimposed on the original date or whether the Shanghai mint made some test runs with larger date which would make them pattern coins. 

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-varieties/gold-pandas-and-commemoratives/1992-g10y-panda-large-date-high-2-5171


Offline Hippanda

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
  • Karma: 76
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2017, 12:36:37 AM »
Interesting you should say that- Granted it is very difficult to see and determine for certain with the smaller 1/10 and 1/20 size coins, and photos are not the best, and to my eyes it would appear they are straighter, suggesting Shenyang mint. Could you please highlight where you see curves?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
  • Karma: 76
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2017, 01:53:00 AM »
Referencing:
Examples generously furnished earlier by poconopenn:

Shanghai : curved windows photo 1
Shenyang : straight            photo 2
? High 2   :   ?                    photo 3
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2265
  • Karma: 118
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2017, 10:26:53 AM »
Yes, I think it is Shenyang as well. 
https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-varieties/gold-pandas-and-commemoratives/1992-g10y-panda-large-date-high-2-5171
the first photo showed enough of the railings such that it is straight, not curved.  Coins from Shenyang mint has numerous text shifts and date varieties.  I suspect it is because they hand-stamped the date.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
  • Karma: 203
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2017, 11:13:21 AM »
Agreed, they look more flat than curved.  On my phone they looked curved, but on desktop it is clear they are flat. 

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2690
  • Karma: 229
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2017, 02:55:49 PM »
Any idea does the "high 2" variety come from the Shenyang mint or Shanghai mint?

+ 1, thank you for the excellent question.

Apparently, NGC has designed this questionable coin incorrectly. If these two coins are genuine, they ought to be designed as small date high 2, since they were made at Shenyang Mint, based on the straight windows (flat pot holes) of the wall next to the stairways.

Obviously, I need to re-evaluate of my previous postings which high 2 coins were compared to large date (Shanghai Mint). I will do so in the next few days. 

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 727
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2017, 07:27:56 PM »
+ 1, thank you for the excellent question.

Apparently, NGC has designed this questionable coin incorrectly. If these two coins are genuine, they ought to be designed as small date high 2, since they were made at Shenyang Mint, based on the straight windows (flat pot holes) of the wall next to the stairways.

Obviously, I need to re-evaluate of my previous postings which high 2 coins were compared to large date (Shanghai Mint). I will do so in the next few days. 

Not all small dates are made by SY mint....1998 for example.  My guess is NGC is referencing “Large” as an adjective because to say it is “small” would not seem appropriate.

Offline 1003

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 3
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2017, 10:29:50 PM »
Maybe NGC chose to call it "large date high 2" just because the font size looks really "large" when compared with both the regular large and small date varieties? Some Chinese auction websites call it "extra large date" in Chinese.

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 727
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2017, 07:43:31 AM »
I agree with Poco, these high 2 coins are questionable authenticity for reasons he mentioned plus an experienced collector that I trust advised me to avoid them above $500.  They may turn out to be legit, but at current prices I prefer to not own them for my personal collection.

Out of curiosity you seemed to have modified your position regarding the high 2 (suggesting they may be pattern) and I wonder if you now own one?

As for superimposing a date over another this does not seem possible. 

IMHO the most logical is that the 1992 inverse design required a new date style due to the curvature of the outer temple ring.  It created challenges vs the normal horizontal date style....hence the reason for the experimental date style which was ultimately rejected for the current large and small 1992.

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2265
  • Karma: 118
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2017, 08:39:34 AM »
This being Christmas Eve, please indulge me telling a Christmas Fantasy about the "High 2":

based on the observations that 1/10 & 1/20 high 2 tend to be certified in pair and the appearance of the varieties 25 years later, my thought is that Shenyang was asked to produce gift set for VIP after 1992 using gold coins (but not too much gold thus 1/10 and 1/20).  It must be dated 1992 because that was a significant date to the VIP.  The original 1992 working die were not available, so Shenyang mint punched a new set of die for 1/10 & 1/20.  It was a hurry-up job so quality was not good.  No production records were kept because this was not production, just favors for ministerial-level officials.  The recipients of the gift frankly had forgotten about them.  It was only because of the running up of gold price in early 2000's for them to be remembered and subsequently sold & graded.

Ho Ho Ho! Happy Holiday!

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
  • Karma: 203
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2017, 02:19:52 PM »
I don't own any of the high 2 or missing P coins, in fact I don't own a single extra 1/20, 1/10 or 1 beyond a master set or MS70.  My position hasn't changed on it, it is still questionable authenticity based on what I have heard over the years.  Questionable doesn't mean fake, just means no record of the coin being produced officially so it is up to debate whether it is fake, aftermarket adjustment, pattern, etc.  I would pay 10-20% premium to regular large date or small date price and hold it as a lottery ticket, but anything more I rather play cyrotos.   

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 727
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2018, 05:25:40 AM »
Population updates:

1992 1/20 high 2: 9
1992 1/10 high 2: 14 (of which at least 2 are mislabeled)

1987 1/20 missing Mark: 15
1987 1/10 missing Mark: 1

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 727
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2018, 01:08:07 PM »
A second 1987 1/10 missing mintmark was graded by NGC and sold on YJZX in September.  About 42,000 yuan.

Also a 1/10 high 2 in 68 grade sold this week for 19,000 yuan.