Author Topic: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety  (Read 15007 times)

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Offline Birdman

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1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« on: December 21, 2012, 08:46:34 AM »
I am trying to keep up with the new varieties.  In browsing the Apmex website, I noticed that there is a 1992 G1/10 Large Date "High 2" variety.

http://www.apmex.com/Product/73324/1992_1_10_oz_Gold_Chinese_Pandas___MS_69_NGC_Large_Date_High_2.aspx

They certainly seem to be charging a premium for it at $899.  At the moment there are only 4 graded with that designation at NGC, although there may be many graded merely as LD that could actually be this "new?" variety.  My question is how long has this variety been recognized (G1/10 isn't my focus so I could be behind the times)?  How rare is it?  Perhaps there is a thread somewhere that I missed that has photos showing how to distinguish it from the regular G1/10 Large Date.  (Obviously, it will have something to do with the "2" being shifted higher, I guess).  The "High 2" doesn't appear to be yet listed in the G1/10 NGC registry, but perhaps that will be coming?  Also, do you think the variety is also present for the other denominations, even though I don't recall it being yet recgonized for the G1/4 and G1/2 the last time I checked?...

Offline radderlee

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2012, 10:21:19 AM »
I think the 2 is far range outer ring , and near inner ring, same as 2 in the SD coin, only one 2 figure.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2012, 02:21:42 PM »
I cannot say for sure without a closer look at the coin.
However, here is my unverified speculation:
This is likely a 1992 SD sent in with LD pieces and mislabeled as a variety within a variety vice a LD or SD. It is probably a mislabeled SD.

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2012, 03:29:39 PM »
I noticed that coin on apmex a month or 2 ago

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2012, 03:36:27 PM »
Doesn't Clark Smith have on eon his site as well? In the newest Chinese coins section . . . sorry to mislead . . . i don't see it labeled as a "high 2"

Offline davidt3251

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2013, 11:33:29 PM »
There is also now one G5Y 1992 LD High 2 in NGC MS69 in the census

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2013, 12:39:22 AM »
Picture of the G5Y LD vs LD High2.  The differences are quite striking.

I believe the "LD High2" posted by Birdman on Apmex site is incorrectly labelled.  I'll post a side-by-side picture shortly.

Offline davidt3251

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2013, 12:53:08 AM »
Sandac, its very striking, one might even think its a fake.-D

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2013, 12:56:29 AM »
The is one of the four LD high 2 in NGC census (actually one in 3 since the other one, 3596179-003, is mislabelled).  Notice it is the next higher number from 3307379-026, the only LD high-2 G5Y in NGC census.  Some one is very lucky with the High2!


Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2013, 12:58:34 AM »
Sandac, its very striking, one might even think its a fake.-D
Yes, that thought occurs to me as well.  In fact, I need dc55232's help.  I do not know the NGC numbers of the two other G10Y High2.  If they both are like the LD High2 posted here, then it is more likely to be genuine.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2013, 02:16:07 AM »
Stumbled across the "High 2" varieties on NGC's website.  Nice close up pictures.

http://www.ngccoin.com/VPVariety.aspx?coinid=5170
http://www.ngccoin.com/VPVariety.aspx?coinid=5171

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2013, 05:07:04 PM »
In light of the nice pictures on NGC site concerning "High 2" varieties, I e-mailed NGC about possible mislabelled of cert. number 3596179-003 from Apmex mentioned in Birdman's original posting.  Max Spiegel of NGC responded quickly and acknowledged 3596179-003 is incorrectly attributed and updated the database to "small date':
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3596179-003

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2013, 01:46:55 PM »
Thanks to dc55232, I have the other two "High 2" NGC numbers.  However, both of them are mis-labelled!  The two numbers are 3593098-004 and 3593098-009.  The "Data/Info" field indicates they are high-2:

Date/Info: 1992 CHINA PANDA LARGE DATE - HIGH 2
Denomination: G10Y
Grade: MS 69 

However, the coins are clearly 1999 Large Date Serif 1.  So of the four 1992 G10Y High-2 in NGC population, three of them are mislabelled.  :ohmy:  >:( The 3307379-026 and 3307379-027 are unique G10Y and G5Y High 2.  David3251 comment of them being possible fake is still plausible.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2013, 02:08:31 PM »
I have personally owned and seen a number of 1992 1/10ths.  I have examined them all closely because I have always had a hard time determining LD vs SD.  I have never seen one that looked like that "new" variety.  I have seen 1992 in both shenyang and shanghai original packaging and none of the coins in either of those packages look like the large date "high 2" that is pictured above on the right.

I don't know if they are fake but I personally think something is off.

I believe NGC needs to eliminate this 1992 LD "high 2" as a variety since a large number of the supposed graded population are mislabeled or questionable.  Why muddy the waters adding these supposed new varieties without larger confirmed populations.

SANDAC maybe you could contact whoever you talked to at NGC about these coins and let them know that 2 of the 4 coins are completely different years and the other 2 don't match each other (one matches a known variety).  So that basically leaves ONE 1/10th that doesn't match any known variety.  This makes that coin and the entire variety VERY questionable. Could be a fake, error, or pattern.  Who knows.

Thank you SANDAC for your research into this.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2015, 07:50:46 PM »
The last update on this thread is over 2 years old.  There have been a few more of these graded and a set of 1/10 and 1/20 showed up in the recent auction in Macau.

The last update in 2013 originally had 4, 1/10 graded.  Of those 4, three were mislabeled.  Leaving one original.  Today there are 6 in total graded by NGC.  Two of the originals are still mislabeled - 3593098-004, 009 (the other was fixed by NGC).  Therefore there are now a total of 4 in the NGC population.  Two of which are known.

1) 3307379-027
2) 3805833-053

As for the 1/20, the last update in 2013 had 1, 1/20 graded.  There are now three.  Two of which are known.

1) 3307379-026
2) 3805833-054

Below are pic of 3805833-053 and 054

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2015, 07:51:38 PM »
more pics

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2015, 06:29:15 AM »
Correction:

There are 4 gold 5 yuan in the ngc census.  Three 69s and one 68.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2015, 11:18:44 AM »
Take a look at this auction.  Someone mistakenly thinks this is a high date variety.  It is actually a small date.
http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3193397-detail.shtml

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2015, 07:10:42 PM »
Not sure what the buyer was thinking with that price.   It clearly is not a "high 2" and if they checked NGC's site they would have realized what they bidding on.

My guess is that a real high 2 would bring a higher price on auction, given its apparent rarity.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2015, 11:21:00 PM »
Have we reached the conclusion of authenticity of this high 2 varieties? Some members of this forum had questioned about the authenticity of this coin two years ago. I did not participate in the discussion at that time and want to wait to see if more of this varieties could be discovered later. Based on the current data, only one confirmed 1/10 oz. (3805833-053) and one 1/20 oz. (3805833-054) were graded by NGC recently. These two coins have the same invoice #, therefore, the same person owns this two coins. Strongly, the previous confirm 1/10 oz. and 1/20 oz. (33017379-026 and -027) high 2 also had the same invoice # and submitted by the same person. Since we do not know the cert. # of the other two sets, we can not really verify if they are indeed high 2 version.

Here is my question. What is the probability of the same person to own both coins? Furthermore, what is the probability of second person to own the both coins again?

Attached are the pictures copied from NGC websites. First two pictures are for 0.1 oz. and third and fourth pictures are for 0.05 oz.

http://www.ngccoin.com/VPVariety.aspx?coinid=5170

http://www.ngccoin.com/VPVariety.aspx?coinid=5171

Both examples given at NGC website shown both coins were made poorly.

Here is my understanding of the minting process. An artist creates a large plaster model of the coin, usually about 8 in size. Next, a reducing lathe takes several days to reduce the image into a proper size of steel master hub. Therefore, the design of 1/10 oz. and 1/20 oz. ought to be identical. The pictures at NGC websites show the position of date 1992 differ from each other and can not be from the same original mold.

There are too many questions to be answered. Perhaps, NGC realized the mistake and decided to stop grading this varieties, and therefore, only one extra set shown up in the population report during last two years. Can any member of this forum who may have good connection to NGC to find out if this varieties still will be acceptable for grading?


Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2015, 01:12:40 AM »

My guess is that a real high 2 would bring a higher price on auction, given its apparent rarity.

There was one recently auctioned for $1700.  The 1/20 also auctioned for $1700. 

As poco points out the circumstances of both 1/10 and 1/20 being on the same invoice twice is suspicious.  I have never seen one despite handling 50+ 1/10 and 1/20 from that year.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2015, 01:58:57 AM »
Fantastic analysis Poconopenn.

I had been recently pondering this issue too but not to the depth of your examination.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2015, 07:55:20 PM »
Keep in mind that dates can be hand stamped onto the dies.  This is also true other types of mint marks.   For example, look at the differences in the 1994 silver proof unicorn.  Or the different date positions for the 1990 silver dragon/ Phoenix.

I posted a discussion about the hand stamp a while back.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2015, 07:00:49 PM »
Keep in mind that dates can be hand stamped onto the dies.  This is also true other types of mint marks.   For example, look at the differences in the 1994 silver proof unicorn.  Or the different date positions for the 1990 silver dragon/ Phoenix.

I posted a discussion about the hand stamp a while back.

For silver and gold pandas or any MCC which are contracted and authorized by the People’s Bank of China, the chance of needing to repair the production die is very limited since multiple mater hubs are made for the production dies. However, for those MCC with the production contract initiated by a foreign distributor and authorized by the People’s Bank of China, (usually with a relatively low mintage) the production budget is low, with limited profit margin for Mint. Therefore, only single master hub is made for the production dies. When the master hub is damaged, the cheapest way to fix the problem is to repair the production die. This is the reason of observing more varieties in those MCC. Historical figures, Unicorn, and dragon/phoenix, which initiated by foreign distributors, are just few good examples. For the same reason, the large size (more than 5 oz.) MCC with relatively low mintage usually has many varieties, since the single master hub and production dies can be damaged easily due to the higher striking pressure and number of the strikes during the minting process. Recent Expo show 5 oz. medals with contract initiated by PandaAmerica are good examples.

IMO, the chance of hand stamped date on production die for gold panda is very limited. The only known example is 2001-D, wherein D has a different position as well as size.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2015, 01:57:45 PM »
The high-2 census from my NGC record dated back to Oct 2013:
G5Y (1/20) was 2 up to 3/31/2014, 3 on 4/7/2014, and 4 on 4/20/2015 til the present.
G10Y (1/10) was 3 up to 3/31/2014, 4 on 4/7/2014, 5 on 6/17/2014, and 6 on 4/20/2015 til the present.
They do seem to be submitted in pair except on 6/17/2014.
Is possible these are VIP present in 2-coin set gift boxes?

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2016, 01:24:13 PM »
New update

3307379-027 just sold on yjzx for 50,000 yuan.

Also NGC is showing 2 more 1/10 so actual pop for 1/10 should be 6 and no change to 1/20 pop which still stands at 4.

Offline 1668Chris

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Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2016, 03:17:54 PM »
Here is another 1/20 high 2 which sold on YJZX.  It is a new cert number which brings total 1/20 to 5.  This one is a 68.  Therefore there are 3 69s and 2 68s

http://auc.yjzx.com/JingPai/Detail.html#59349


Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2016, 07:53:40 PM »
The high2 tends to graded in pair so the next number 3878499-002 turns out to be G10Y high2.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2016, 11:30:17 PM »
Here is an ungraded 1/10 that just sold on yjzx.

http://auc.yjzx.com/JingPai/show/sta/1/tid/47118/pid/65729.html

No new updates to NGC pop.  This is the first ungraded one seen on auction. 

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2016, 05:56:08 PM »
The pricing on the high 2 has really moved up in a couple of years (disclosure I own a 1/10 and 1/20):

1/10

April 2015 - $2,000 (MS69)
July 2016 - $7700 (MS69)
Dec. 2016 - $5400 (ungraded)

1/20

April 2015 - $2,000 (MS69)
Sept. 2016 - $2,200 (MS68)

I don't recall if the original APMEX or Clark Smith one were true "high 2's and what the asking price was.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2016, 06:05:44 PM »
For the record here are the known cert. numbers:

1/10 (total correct NGC Pop is 6)

3307379-027
3805833-053
3878499-002

1/20 (total NGC Pop is 5)

3307379-026
3805833-054
3878499-001

+ one ungraded 1/10.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2016, 09:19:57 PM »
The pictures of this raw coin are attached for future reference. It has the same surface defects as pictures shown at NGC website.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2016, 05:27:26 PM »
The authenticity of 1992 high 2 version for 1/10 and 1/20 oz., IMO, is still questionable.

Attached pictures of high 2 coins are copied from NGC websites.
 
https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-varieties/gold-pandas-and-commemoratives/1992-g5y-panda-large-date-high-2-5170

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-varieties/gold-pandas-and-commemoratives/1992-g10y-panda-large-date-high-2-5171

Attached also pictures of 1992 large date 1/10 and 1/20 oz. gold panda. Please note the differences in 1/10 and 1/20. There are other differences in the size of lines. Most lines in high 2 appear to be wider, suggesting the potential of reproduction.

Both 1/10 and 1/20 being on the same invoice three times makes this high 2 version very suspicious.


Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2016, 11:41:27 PM »
The previous picture of 1/20 oz. large date is not really good enough to see the differences of 1/20. Here are the better pictures. Please note that 2 and 0 in large date has a different size from high 2 version and lightly connected.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2016, 11:49:57 PM »
I agree with Poco, these high 2 coins are questionable authenticity for reasons he mentioned plus an experienced collector that I trust advised me to avoid them above $500.  They may turn out to be legit, but at current prices I prefer to not own them for my personal collection.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2016, 06:20:54 AM »
Not worried there is always the NGC guarantee.  And if they are ever confirmed to be what another large collector in Of rare MCC and I think they are then they are quite rare.  Just like the gold panda market, the market for rare error type coins among MCC is even smaller and many collectors are not focused on this highly specialized area.  Immediate reactions is to say they are fake.  Just because you have not seen or handled one does not mean they don't exist.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2016, 09:37:06 AM »
Would you also consider these of questionable authenticity?

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/4217/


Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2016, 11:15:04 AM »
The missing mint mark is a true error coin based on what I have heard, that one is safer to collect, similar to broken leg 1984 1/2.  The High 2 too many are questioning it, so that is why I am staying away.  It is similar to 1984 silver pagoda debate on mintage, too many conflicting opinions, is it 260 or 1000 or some other number make it less desirable for me to own or deal in.  New information could come out that could spikes or carter the coin, so risk reward profile doesn't suit me or those that I typically sell to.  At current prices I think it is safer to be a seller than an owner, was my main point.  At $500 maybe better to be an owner than seller.  

I have over 20 gold panda coins that are unrecognized varieties that I am accumulating at common coin price, someday maybe a few will turn out to be special like 1984 1/2 broken leg, while others I will simply break even and sell off as common variety, that is kind of risk reward that I like when it comes to varieties.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2016, 01:47:07 PM »
I'm also collecting unrecognized varieties hopefully with a small markup.  There are quite a number of varieties out there and NGC seems to have the special knack of recognizing minor varieties and leave the major ones alone!  I applaud 1668Chris' efforts in collecting and bring unusual varieties to light.  IMO the High 2 are real and at this stage I'm not concern about controversy since it'll keep the price low.   I'd dearly love to acquire NGC graded MS69 ones at $1000 each.  So anyone wants to sell them at that price please PM me.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2016, 05:20:54 PM »
Chris,

If it is possible, please take high resolution pictures of your 1/10 and 1/20 high 2 at the same area of the attached pictures. This may provide additional information to convince me this high 2 version may be genuine.

Pictures at NGC website usually have a high reflection and may generate optical illusion and not reliable.
 
Nevertheless, based on the pictures from NGC website and yjzx, the style of 9 for high 2 version is different from regular large date. The odd for Shanghai Mint to use different production dies for both obverse and reverse to make this high 2 version is just too low, if the difference in 9 is not caused by the optical illusion.
 
The fifth picture is copied from high 2 raw coin from recent auction at yjzx (reply # 29) which you posted and last picture is also from yjzx (NGC68, 3878499-001), also posted by you in reply # 27.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2016, 11:36:37 AM »
No time for pics....but here is a large date with very similar looking thick lines....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/291971055802


Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2016, 08:30:53 PM »
I don't have 1992 1/20 gold panda, but I do have a number of 1989, 1990, and 1991 1/20.  Looking at what I have closely, the 1989 and 1991 are fairly consistent, but I do see the 1990 have good bit of variation in the letterings--similar to that of the 1992 High 2 vs 1992 Large Date.  Below is a side-by-side comparison.  Both coins are graded by NGC.

Offline 1668Chris

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Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2016, 05:21:49 PM »
NGC is very slow in identifying the fake MCC. This fake 2012 colored lunar dragon coin was known long time ago (two weeks after genuine coin issued by China Mint) and considered as a low quality fake because of its size of stars and the lack of 3-D details as well as the anti-counterfeit design (different shades in frosty surfaces) incorporated by China Mints in recent years.

Attached are pictures of reverse of genuine and fake copied from NGC article.  As always, the NGC pictures are not good quality and hard to see the details. Nevertheless, the difference in the size of stars is obvious and most lines are thicker due to the difference in the process of making the frosty surfaces.

Offline 1003

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2017, 10:32:55 AM »
Any idea does the "high 2" variety come from the Shenyang mint or Shanghai mint?

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2017, 09:45:46 PM »
If you look at the picture on the NGC website you notice it has curved flats on both sides of temple of heaven stairs.  That means the coin is from Shanghai mint.  While it is clear the coin was made by the Shanghai mint, what is not clear is whether the mint produced a normal LD coin that was later modified by private mint or individual with a larger date superimposed on the original date or whether the Shanghai mint made some test runs with larger date which would make them pattern coins. 

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-varieties/gold-pandas-and-commemoratives/1992-g10y-panda-large-date-high-2-5171


Offline Hippanda

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2017, 12:36:37 AM »
Interesting you should say that- Granted it is very difficult to see and determine for certain with the smaller 1/10 and 1/20 size coins, and photos are not the best, and to my eyes it would appear they are straighter, suggesting Shenyang mint. Could you please highlight where you see curves?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline Hippanda

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2017, 01:53:00 AM »
Referencing:
Examples generously furnished earlier by poconopenn:

Shanghai : curved windows photo 1
Shenyang : straight            photo 2
? High 2   :   ?                    photo 3
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2017, 10:26:53 AM »
Yes, I think it is Shenyang as well. 
https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-varieties/gold-pandas-and-commemoratives/1992-g10y-panda-large-date-high-2-5171
the first photo showed enough of the railings such that it is straight, not curved.  Coins from Shenyang mint has numerous text shifts and date varieties.  I suspect it is because they hand-stamped the date.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2017, 11:13:21 AM »
Agreed, they look more flat than curved.  On my phone they looked curved, but on desktop it is clear they are flat. 

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2017, 02:55:49 PM »
Any idea does the "high 2" variety come from the Shenyang mint or Shanghai mint?

+ 1, thank you for the excellent question.

Apparently, NGC has designed this questionable coin incorrectly. If these two coins are genuine, they ought to be designed as small date high 2, since they were made at Shenyang Mint, based on the straight windows (flat pot holes) of the wall next to the stairways.

Obviously, I need to re-evaluate of my previous postings which high 2 coins were compared to large date (Shanghai Mint). I will do so in the next few days. 

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2017, 07:27:56 PM »
+ 1, thank you for the excellent question.

Apparently, NGC has designed this questionable coin incorrectly. If these two coins are genuine, they ought to be designed as small date high 2, since they were made at Shenyang Mint, based on the straight windows (flat pot holes) of the wall next to the stairways.

Obviously, I need to re-evaluate of my previous postings which high 2 coins were compared to large date (Shanghai Mint). I will do so in the next few days. 

Not all small dates are made by SY mint....1998 for example.  My guess is NGC is referencing “Large” as an adjective because to say it is “small” would not seem appropriate.

Offline 1003

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2017, 10:29:50 PM »
Maybe NGC chose to call it "large date high 2" just because the font size looks really "large" when compared with both the regular large and small date varieties? Some Chinese auction websites call it "extra large date" in Chinese.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2017, 07:43:31 AM »
I agree with Poco, these high 2 coins are questionable authenticity for reasons he mentioned plus an experienced collector that I trust advised me to avoid them above $500.  They may turn out to be legit, but at current prices I prefer to not own them for my personal collection.

Out of curiosity you seemed to have modified your position regarding the high 2 (suggesting they may be pattern) and I wonder if you now own one?

As for superimposing a date over another this does not seem possible. 

IMHO the most logical is that the 1992 inverse design required a new date style due to the curvature of the outer temple ring.  It created challenges vs the normal horizontal date style....hence the reason for the experimental date style which was ultimately rejected for the current large and small 1992.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2017, 08:39:34 AM »
This being Christmas Eve, please indulge me telling a Christmas Fantasy about the "High 2":

based on the observations that 1/10 & 1/20 high 2 tend to be certified in pair and the appearance of the varieties 25 years later, my thought is that Shenyang was asked to produce gift set for VIP after 1992 using gold coins (but not too much gold thus 1/10 and 1/20).  It must be dated 1992 because that was a significant date to the VIP.  The original 1992 working die were not available, so Shenyang mint punched a new set of die for 1/10 & 1/20.  It was a hurry-up job so quality was not good.  No production records were kept because this was not production, just favors for ministerial-level officials.  The recipients of the gift frankly had forgotten about them.  It was only because of the running up of gold price in early 2000's for them to be remembered and subsequently sold & graded.

Ho Ho Ho! Happy Holiday!

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2017, 02:19:52 PM »
I don't own any of the high 2 or missing P coins, in fact I don't own a single extra 1/20, 1/10 or 1 beyond a master set or MS70.  My position hasn't changed on it, it is still questionable authenticity based on what I have heard over the years.  Questionable doesn't mean fake, just means no record of the coin being produced officially so it is up to debate whether it is fake, aftermarket adjustment, pattern, etc.  I would pay 10-20% premium to regular large date or small date price and hold it as a lottery ticket, but anything more I rather play cyrotos.   

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2018, 05:25:40 AM »
Population updates:

1992 1/20 high 2: 9
1992 1/10 high 2: 14 (of which at least 2 are mislabeled)

1987 1/20 missing Mark: 15
1987 1/10 missing Mark: 1