Author Topic: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix  (Read 14068 times)

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Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2013, 11:22:40 AM »
Since the initial post in Nov 2012, I've acquired all 4 date varieties of the 1oz silver proof and able to have better resolution pictures.  Here is a collage of the 4 date variations.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2013, 11:26:52 AM »
Excellent work, SANDAC !!   N39 :thumbup:

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2013, 09:06:02 AM »
Regarding the varieties of the silver 2 oz proof, I am aware of three varieties as illustrated in first three pictures below.  The red arrow in each picture is pointing at the same spot on the brick background.  The first picture is the "left date" (NGC 3357569-027) where the date is shifted to the left against the brick background.  The 2nd picture is the "right date" (NGC 3564664-006) where the date is shifted to the right relatively to the background.  Like the silver 1oz proof, there is also a "right high date" where the date is slightly higher than the "right date".  I used my own coin to illustrate because of better picture quality.  An equivalent "right high date" can be found in NGC 3356505-017.  

I also combined all three pictures into an animated GIF file (4th picture).

NGC now recognizes two varieties of the 2oz D&P silver proof: High Date-Near Brick, http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=2785089-001,
and and Low Date-Far Brick.  I'm waiting to see whether they will also have a "Low Date-Near Brick".

At this time NGC has not recognize the corresponding varieties in 1oz D&P silver proof and 2oz D&P gold proof.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2013, 01:14:01 AM »
My understanding is that 1989 Dragon and Phoenix do exist but are extremely rare.  NGC population report shows not a single one.
I did find a few 1989 Dragon and Phoenix on NGC.  They are listed as "pattern" or "design concept".  The design appeared to be the same as 1990 D&P, but the date is 1989.
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3498077-001
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3364375-004
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3364352-001

Offline wg

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Re: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2013, 11:32:03 AM »

1 oz proof

oz high
oz low

Offline wg

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Re: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2013, 01:23:51 PM »
oz high/oz low

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2013, 10:07:48 PM »
There is also a "low g" variety.  e.g.,  NGC 3618207-012

Offline wg

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Offline wg

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Re: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2013, 12:24:49 PM »

Offline wg

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Re: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2014, 03:01:26 AM »
There is also a "low g" variety.  e.g.,  NGC 3618207-012


there are two "low g" varieties



Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2014, 01:56:46 PM »
Ah, thanks for the link.  NGC has finally recognized the date shift in 1990 Dragon & Phoenix S10Y proof.  The 3972790-004 is actually left-low but designated as "LOW DATE".  3972790-005 is actually right-high but designated as "HIGH DATE".  The two other date shift varieties, right-low & left-high, are probably too minor to be considered.  However, I think the HIGH vs LOW designation will be troublesome for the NGC graders when the right-low and left-high showed up on their desks.

I guess the lesson here is that we'll just have to keep on trying until NGC finally figures out the differences.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2014, 09:14:48 PM »
Looking at past history of NGC population reports, NGC has also recognized the HIGH & LOW date varieties of 2 oz gold G200Y which were described here http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6886.msg42304#msg42304  The NGC population history is rather curious:  
1.  On 6/17/2014 there were 115 G200Y graded with no variety designation
2.  On 6/23/2014 ALL 115 graded G200Y were designated as DRAGON & PHOENIX LOW DATE - FAR BRICK!!   >:(  There was zero NEAR BRICK graded
3.  The NEAR BRICK population remained zero until 9/1/2014 when 4 of them were graded.
So don't believe the FAR BRICK to NEAR BRICK ratio for G200Y, it is just wrong.

The mintage of S10Y proof, S20Y proof, and G200Y proof are 12000, 5000 and 2243, respectively, and all minted by Shenyang mint.  For such low mintage coins to have so many major varieties recognized by NGC plus additional discernable varieties mean there was a common coin making step that's susceptible to variation.  My theory is that the date was manually punched on a working die and when one working die was worn out (after 700 to 3000 coins) it was replaced with another working die that also had a manually punched date slightly shifted.

Offline wg

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Re: Varieties of 1990 Dragon & Phoenix
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2014, 02:57:00 AM »
( .. )  However, I think the HIGH vs LOW designation will be troublesome for the NGC graders when the right-low and left-high showed up on their desks.

I guess the lesson here is that we'll just have to keep on trying until NGC finally figures out the differences.
" the right-low and left-high"
"troublesome"  :001_unsure:

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