Author Topic: Fake NGC slab danger  (Read 100684 times)

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Offline 从心出发

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2012, 07:03:24 PM »
The NGC grade is DELETED.

What does it mean?

Offline Birdman

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2012, 07:19:06 PM »
The NGC grade is DELETED.

What does it mean?

I see what you mean.  On the NGC link, under the photos of the slab, it states:

"Date/Info: 1987 1/4oz CHINA MAZU - 1000TH ANNIVERSARY GOLD
Denomination: MEDAL
Grade: DELETED"

I didn't notice that when I looked at it earlier today, but perhaps it was there then too?

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2012, 07:29:38 PM »
I bought one fake Mazu on ebay before. It was a fake coin in a faked slab, NGC cert# was stolen. Easiest way to tell is the number"7".

Offline Birdman

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2012, 07:34:50 PM »
I bought one fake Mazu on ebay before. It was a fake coin in a faked slab, NGC cert# was stolen. Easiest way to tell is the number"7".

Could you clarify what you mean by," Easiest way to tell is the number"7"."

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2012, 07:39:36 PM »
If you compare the number "7", it is slightly curved on the fake coin, vs more straight downward line on the genuine coin, and the horizontal line is quite different.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 07:42:28 PM by pandaccumulator »

Offline Birdman

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2012, 07:59:17 PM »
If you compare the number "7", it is slightly curved on the fake coin, vs more straight downward line on the genuine coin, and the horizontal line is quite different.

Thanks for the clarification. 

Even though I asked for clarification, I now re-read:

The Mazu: Different slab, coin was NOT broken out. That is the whole point, it is a fake slab/fake label that is so close to a real one that it would likely pass detection if the fake coin wasnt so obvious.  In fact, the fake label is 99% close to perfect.  I would invite anyone to flip between the fake, and the actual NGC site, to try and tell the difference.  Then, please do NOT post it.  If it is that easy for them to learn, they will change it and there will be no way to gurantee telling the differnce for a while for this new fake slab.

I suppose it would be best not to go into too much detail on what is wrong with the fake, so as not to provide free and skilled consulting to the counterfeiters on how to make an even better fake...

But then what is the best way to exchange information and learn?...

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2012, 08:17:06 PM »

I suppose it would be best not to go into too much detail on what is wrong with the fake, so as not to provide free and skilled consulting to the counterfeiters on how to make an even better fake...

But then what is the best way to exchange information and learn?...

I was referring specifically to the fake slab. Pointing out details on the fake coin/medal is fine for now.
I am more concerned that the counterfeiters make a small change to their slab and thus would be able to pass fakes across the whole spectrum of coins, if they improve the coins too.

What is up with this 1987 Mazu medal? There are real ones in real NGC slabs, different ones we have to assume fake in the same numbered slab, and now fake ones in Modern Coin Mart Custom slabs?

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3589198-001


Another fake recently sold?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-1-4-troy-ounce-oz-1987-China-Mazu-999-solid-gold-coin-ngc-pf-68-Ultra-cam-/251177829500

This is just too odd to easily explain now.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 08:24:44 PM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2012, 09:06:04 PM »
And another?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-NGC-PF-68-Ultra-Cameo-1-4th-oz-999-Gold-Mazu-1000th-Anniversary-Medallion-/170924650997?pt=Paper_Money&hash=item27cbe731f5&nma=true&si=Dz44V9wuK3n34dQv77U7AQqSSeo%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Seller is Bellevue Rare Coins, "supposedly" reputable?  yet lots of sellers are suddenly selling these duplicates of the 1987 Mazu, in these near-perfect copy slabs?

That is not same Mazu medal as is on NGC verify site with same number:

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3356524-140

« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 09:11:01 PM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2012, 09:10:02 PM »
I just bought a Slabbed Panda from this guy. Now you got me worried if its a fake.
Any experts out there?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-CHINA-SILVER-PANDA-10-YUAN-NGC-PF-69-ULTRA-CAMEO-/281017357175?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&nma=true&si=AIGKVG0FMh34pENMYg4CD2piABU%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Because of the photo angle it's a challenge to compare coins, but I can say that there are some design details in this coin that don't match a known genuine coin that I have in front of me. These aren't just frosting differences that I see. Again, the angle is a problem (maybe deliberate?).

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2012, 09:14:04 PM »
.
What is up with this 1987 Mazu medal? There are real ones in real NGC slabs, different ones we have to assume fake in the same numbered slab, and now fake ones in Modern Coin Mart Custom slabs?

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3589198-001
.

The Mazu coin in Modern Coin Mart Custom slab is definitely a fake coin in genuine slab.

The Mazu coin in the pictures posted in my previous post is definitely a fake coin in a fake slab. The label in this fake slab has a different paper and ink.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2012, 09:15:15 PM »
And another?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-NGC-PF-68-Ultra-Cameo-1-4th-oz-999-Gold-Mazu-1000th-Anniversary-Medallion-/170924650997?pt=Paper_Money&hash=item27cbe731f5&nma=true&si=Dz44V9wuK3n34dQv77U7AQqSSeo%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Seller is Bellevue Rare Coins, "supposedly" reputable?  yet lots of sellers are suddenly selling these duplicates of the 1987 Mazu, in these near-perfect copy slabs?

That is not same Mazu medal as is on NGC verify site with same number:

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3356524-140



This one is a fake coin in a fake slab.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2012, 09:35:15 PM »
Because of the photo angle it's a challenge to compare coins, but I can say that there are some design details in this coin that don't match a known genuine coin that I have in front of me. These aren't just frosting differences that I see. Again, the angle is a problem (maybe deliberate?).

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com

If you look you genuine coin from about 55 degree angle and 10 degree from right, the design differences will be minimum. 1987 silver panda has a signature defect on surface. This coin has that defect.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2012, 10:05:37 PM »
Of the 131 1987 Mazu in the NGC population, 82 of them are 3356524.  They are 3356524-134 to -215.  Within that population of 82, 4 numbers are deleted.  They are -140, -158, -206, -208.  Not surprising that the forger would use coins in this group because bar codes are very similar and only a few digits need to be altered.  The Modern Coin Mart slab 3589198-001 being fake is very disturbing.  It is time to ask NGC about 3589198-001 and what deleted cert numbers mean.

Forger is in the business of selling coins, so we should see more of these showed up.  I think we should all contact the various sellers politely, show them the NGC photo and deleted annotation, explain the forgery, and push up the supply chain and find out where these coins came from.

Offline jimmy

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2012, 11:57:13 PM »
DEAR COMMUNITY,
WE ARE THE SELLERS OF THE 1987 MAZU GOLD 1/4 OZ COIN ON EBAY. OUR ID AND STORE NAME IS LYUBOV3. FIRST OF ALL, WHY YOU DID NOT CONTACT US , AS THE SELLER OF THE ITEM, AND GAVE US YOUR OPINION ABOUT THIS COIN. WE NEVER SELL FAKE
COINS. CHECK OUR FEEDBACKS ON EBAY. BUT ANYTHING POSSIBLE, EVEN BEST OF US CAN MAKE A MISTAKE. WE BOUGHT THIS COIN ALREADY SLABBED FROM VERY KNOWN AND REPUTABLE COIN DEALER . FIRST OF ALL, IN OUR OPINION THIS COIN IS TOO COMMON TO MAKE A FAKE, BUT EVEN SO WE DECIDED TO END THE LISTING OF THIS COIN ON EBAY AND WE WILL CHECK WITH NGC IF THIS COIN REAL OR FAKE.
EVEN NGS PROFESSIONAL GRADERS CAN NOT TELL ONLY BY THE PICTURE IF COIN IS 100% REAL OR NOT. ANY DEALERS, WHO HAS EXPERIENCE OF GRADING COINS KNOWS, THAT YOU HAVE TO SUBMIT COIN IN ORDER TO FIND OUT FOR SURE, IF COIN IS REAL OR FAKE. THAT'S WHY IN OUR OPINION, THE WHOLE DISCUSSION IS BOGUS AND HAS NO VALUE. WE WILL RESUBMIT THIS COIN TO NGC AND WILL GET BACK TO YOU.
THANK YOU.
RESPECTFULLY, LYUBOV3.



 

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2012, 12:17:04 AM »
Hi Jimmy-
Thanks for coming on the Forum- welcome.

We have done business. This topic is not bogus. If you read it from the beginning you will realize fake coins are getting past NGC too, so they may NOT be trusted as the final arbitrators of what is fake and what is real. They make errors.
It is obvious that "lined hair" Mazu is fake. It is even in fake NGC slabs with same number as real ones on NGC Verify so it is easy to see if you want to follow this thread.

I'd like to say, as crude as these fakes are, they are obviously fooling the grading outfits.
Some have passed even though fake. So the grading outfits clearly are not the experts they purport to be.
This Mazu 1987 fake has been seen before. That makes me concerned on how many fakes, Chinese, US, other, are getting by the graders.

Also, fakes are showing up in these fake NGC holders which copy real NGC numbers. That has to be a concern to you and other
Reputable sellers. That is part Of the Message here, that even reputable sellers can and ARE being fooled
by these decent fakes in good fake slabs.

Thank you for yanking the eBay listing.

Now exactly who sold you this fake?
Can we try and stop this by uncovering a common seller
to you, Bellevue Rare Coins, and Modern Coin mart? Are you concerned enough to get involved, ask them, find out, and put an end to this fraud?  Or supply leads for others to help clean it up?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 12:29:15 AM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius