Author Topic: Fake NGC slab danger  (Read 110829 times)

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Offline Hippanda

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Fake NGC slab danger
« on: November 14, 2012, 12:52:18 PM »
Here's a fake NGC slab which is very difficult to detect from the real one, which is copied almost perfectly.
It would escape detection if the enclosed medal were slightly better and didnt have one or two obvious and well-known characteristics of fakes.  Meaning: if counterfeiters get only a bit more careful and better at faking, there can be a real problem ahead with authenticating even graded coins and medals.
This fake has been reported and may be yanked.  Others of this same 1987 fake Mazu have appeared in recent days, reported, and yanked. If it is yanked I will post photos later.  Note the lines in the hair of the fake, and other small differences like the 9 in the date already discussed.

The fake:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-CHINA-GOLD-1-4-OZ-25-MAZU-NGC-PF-68-ULTRA-CAMEO-/281023187883?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item416e498bab

The real:
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3356524-158
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline Silverfever

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2012, 03:17:37 PM »

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2012, 03:38:58 PM »
The coin is definitely different from the one on ngc but is the slab different maybe he got the slab open and changed the coin

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2012, 03:46:20 PM »
Silver fever your coin seems to match those of ngc so it's most likely real

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2012, 03:51:40 PM »
There are many frosting variations, so you should compare your coin carefully to the NGC photo.  They should look EXACTLY the same.  I looked at the photos of the link you provided and compare to NGC photo.  There are reasons to be concerned.  The thickness of ears, shape of eye, shapes of tree trunk openings.  They seem to be different.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 03:59:04 PM »
I just bought a Slabbed Panda from this guy. Now you got me worried if its a fake.
Any experts out there?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-CHINA-SILVER-PANDA-10-YUAN-NGC-PF-69-ULTRA-CAMEO-/281017357175?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&nma=true&si=AIGKVG0FMh34pENMYg4CD2piABU%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

IMO, Your coin is genuine.

The pictures of all listings by this seller were taken with a angle. It hard to know if the slab is fake or genuine. The 1987 Mazu gold coin is definitely a fake. Pictures copied from this listing are attached in the next post for future reference.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 04:03:54 PM »
Picutres of fake 1987 1/4 oz gold Mazu coin.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 04:09:24 PM »
The coin is definitely different from the one on ngc but is the slab different maybe he got the slab open and changed the coin

The Mazu: Different slab, coin was NOT broken out. That is the whole point, it is a fake slab/fake label that is so close to a real one that it would likely pass detection if the fake coin wasnt so obvious.  In fact, the fake label is 99% close to perfect.  I would invite anyone to flip between the fake, and the actual NGC site, to try and tell the difference.  Then, please do NOT post it.  If it is that easy for them to learn, they will change it and there will be no way to gurantee telling the differnce for a while for this new fake slab.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline Silverfever

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 04:22:13 PM »
Thank you everyone for your input. I am a newbie and I thought I would just buy graded coins to avoid the fakes, now this thing comes up...

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 04:35:17 PM »
Thank you everyone for your input. I am a newbie and I thought I would just buy graded coins to avoid the fakes, now this thing comes up...

Yes, and that is why these new near perfect fake slabs are so troubling.
I wonder why this seller is taking photos at an angle-  it does
make it more difficult to compare the labels closely.

Alarms also go off looking at this sellers feedback of supposed buyers.
There are some listed there, that are known to be
Highly suspect.

This could be the tip of something really scary.
It'll take time to post all the connections, and some of the fake pictures in fake listings have been removed by eBay so are no longer available.
Stay tuned for developing details.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 04:42:03 PM »
People on eBay selling coins need to put pics of the hologram on the front and back cause surely that can't be faked right

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 04:52:25 PM »
People on eBay selling coins need to put pics of the hologram on the front and back cause surely that can't be faked right

Sorry, they are faking the holograms quite well too unfortunately.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2012, 04:57:13 PM »
IMO, Your coin is genuine.

Poconopenn- could you kindly blow up and examine closely the claws on the upper paw, and the
line of the arm touching panda's chin, in addition to photos posted by SANDAC?
Do you think these differences can be explained by angle of photo?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline exchange

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2012, 05:54:26 PM »
Considering the accuracy of the slab, could maybe an insider at NGC have provided the forgers with blank slabs to be used on the black market?


exchange
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 05:56:27 PM by exchange »

Offline Birdman

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2012, 06:42:09 PM »
Considering the accuracy of the slab, could maybe an insider at NGC have provided the forgers with blank slabs to be used on the black market?

exchange

That would be a question NGC would be interested in.  Has someone forwarded this listing to someone at NGC, so they can take a closer look at the slab?

Thank you everyone for your input. I am a newbie and I thought I would just buy graded coins to avoid the fakes, now this thing comes up...

One way to reduce anxiety associated with buying expensive China coins would be to purchase from reputable dealers, who submit dozens/hundreds of coins to the grading companies each month.  There is little risk of getting a fake slab if you purchase the coin directly from the person that submitted the coin to the grading company.  There are several dealers that I would feel very comfortable buying Chinese coins from.

Another option is to purchase directly from major auction houses.  Experts handled the coins/slabs and cataloged them.  Then the coins are listed in full view online for a month or more and examined carefully in person by many potential buyers.  I would think any fakes would be flagged early in the process and would no longer be available on the day of the bidding.

Offline 从心出发

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2012, 07:03:24 PM »
The NGC grade is DELETED.

What does it mean?

Offline Birdman

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2012, 07:19:06 PM »
The NGC grade is DELETED.

What does it mean?

I see what you mean.  On the NGC link, under the photos of the slab, it states:

"Date/Info: 1987 1/4oz CHINA MAZU - 1000TH ANNIVERSARY GOLD
Denomination: MEDAL
Grade: DELETED"

I didn't notice that when I looked at it earlier today, but perhaps it was there then too?

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2012, 07:29:38 PM »
I bought one fake Mazu on ebay before. It was a fake coin in a faked slab, NGC cert# was stolen. Easiest way to tell is the number"7".

Offline Birdman

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2012, 07:34:50 PM »
I bought one fake Mazu on ebay before. It was a fake coin in a faked slab, NGC cert# was stolen. Easiest way to tell is the number"7".

Could you clarify what you mean by," Easiest way to tell is the number"7"."

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2012, 07:39:36 PM »
If you compare the number "7", it is slightly curved on the fake coin, vs more straight downward line on the genuine coin, and the horizontal line is quite different.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 07:42:28 PM by pandaccumulator »

Offline Birdman

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2012, 07:59:17 PM »
If you compare the number "7", it is slightly curved on the fake coin, vs more straight downward line on the genuine coin, and the horizontal line is quite different.

Thanks for the clarification. 

Even though I asked for clarification, I now re-read:

The Mazu: Different slab, coin was NOT broken out. That is the whole point, it is a fake slab/fake label that is so close to a real one that it would likely pass detection if the fake coin wasnt so obvious.  In fact, the fake label is 99% close to perfect.  I would invite anyone to flip between the fake, and the actual NGC site, to try and tell the difference.  Then, please do NOT post it.  If it is that easy for them to learn, they will change it and there will be no way to gurantee telling the differnce for a while for this new fake slab.

I suppose it would be best not to go into too much detail on what is wrong with the fake, so as not to provide free and skilled consulting to the counterfeiters on how to make an even better fake...

But then what is the best way to exchange information and learn?...

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2012, 08:17:06 PM »

I suppose it would be best not to go into too much detail on what is wrong with the fake, so as not to provide free and skilled consulting to the counterfeiters on how to make an even better fake...

But then what is the best way to exchange information and learn?...

I was referring specifically to the fake slab. Pointing out details on the fake coin/medal is fine for now.
I am more concerned that the counterfeiters make a small change to their slab and thus would be able to pass fakes across the whole spectrum of coins, if they improve the coins too.

What is up with this 1987 Mazu medal? There are real ones in real NGC slabs, different ones we have to assume fake in the same numbered slab, and now fake ones in Modern Coin Mart Custom slabs?

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3589198-001


Another fake recently sold?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-1-4-troy-ounce-oz-1987-China-Mazu-999-solid-gold-coin-ngc-pf-68-Ultra-cam-/251177829500

This is just too odd to easily explain now.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 08:24:44 PM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2012, 09:06:04 PM »
And another?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-NGC-PF-68-Ultra-Cameo-1-4th-oz-999-Gold-Mazu-1000th-Anniversary-Medallion-/170924650997?pt=Paper_Money&hash=item27cbe731f5&nma=true&si=Dz44V9wuK3n34dQv77U7AQqSSeo%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Seller is Bellevue Rare Coins, "supposedly" reputable?  yet lots of sellers are suddenly selling these duplicates of the 1987 Mazu, in these near-perfect copy slabs?

That is not same Mazu medal as is on NGC verify site with same number:

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3356524-140

« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 09:11:01 PM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2012, 09:10:02 PM »
I just bought a Slabbed Panda from this guy. Now you got me worried if its a fake.
Any experts out there?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-CHINA-SILVER-PANDA-10-YUAN-NGC-PF-69-ULTRA-CAMEO-/281017357175?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&nma=true&si=AIGKVG0FMh34pENMYg4CD2piABU%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Because of the photo angle it's a challenge to compare coins, but I can say that there are some design details in this coin that don't match a known genuine coin that I have in front of me. These aren't just frosting differences that I see. Again, the angle is a problem (maybe deliberate?).

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2012, 09:14:04 PM »
.
What is up with this 1987 Mazu medal? There are real ones in real NGC slabs, different ones we have to assume fake in the same numbered slab, and now fake ones in Modern Coin Mart Custom slabs?

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3589198-001
.

The Mazu coin in Modern Coin Mart Custom slab is definitely a fake coin in genuine slab.

The Mazu coin in the pictures posted in my previous post is definitely a fake coin in a fake slab. The label in this fake slab has a different paper and ink.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2012, 09:15:15 PM »
And another?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-NGC-PF-68-Ultra-Cameo-1-4th-oz-999-Gold-Mazu-1000th-Anniversary-Medallion-/170924650997?pt=Paper_Money&hash=item27cbe731f5&nma=true&si=Dz44V9wuK3n34dQv77U7AQqSSeo%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Seller is Bellevue Rare Coins, "supposedly" reputable?  yet lots of sellers are suddenly selling these duplicates of the 1987 Mazu, in these near-perfect copy slabs?

That is not same Mazu medal as is on NGC verify site with same number:

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3356524-140



This one is a fake coin in a fake slab.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2012, 09:35:15 PM »
Because of the photo angle it's a challenge to compare coins, but I can say that there are some design details in this coin that don't match a known genuine coin that I have in front of me. These aren't just frosting differences that I see. Again, the angle is a problem (maybe deliberate?).

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com

If you look you genuine coin from about 55 degree angle and 10 degree from right, the design differences will be minimum. 1987 silver panda has a signature defect on surface. This coin has that defect.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2012, 10:05:37 PM »
Of the 131 1987 Mazu in the NGC population, 82 of them are 3356524.  They are 3356524-134 to -215.  Within that population of 82, 4 numbers are deleted.  They are -140, -158, -206, -208.  Not surprising that the forger would use coins in this group because bar codes are very similar and only a few digits need to be altered.  The Modern Coin Mart slab 3589198-001 being fake is very disturbing.  It is time to ask NGC about 3589198-001 and what deleted cert numbers mean.

Forger is in the business of selling coins, so we should see more of these showed up.  I think we should all contact the various sellers politely, show them the NGC photo and deleted annotation, explain the forgery, and push up the supply chain and find out where these coins came from.

Offline jimmy

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2012, 11:57:13 PM »
DEAR COMMUNITY,
WE ARE THE SELLERS OF THE 1987 MAZU GOLD 1/4 OZ COIN ON EBAY. OUR ID AND STORE NAME IS LYUBOV3. FIRST OF ALL, WHY YOU DID NOT CONTACT US , AS THE SELLER OF THE ITEM, AND GAVE US YOUR OPINION ABOUT THIS COIN. WE NEVER SELL FAKE
COINS. CHECK OUR FEEDBACKS ON EBAY. BUT ANYTHING POSSIBLE, EVEN BEST OF US CAN MAKE A MISTAKE. WE BOUGHT THIS COIN ALREADY SLABBED FROM VERY KNOWN AND REPUTABLE COIN DEALER . FIRST OF ALL, IN OUR OPINION THIS COIN IS TOO COMMON TO MAKE A FAKE, BUT EVEN SO WE DECIDED TO END THE LISTING OF THIS COIN ON EBAY AND WE WILL CHECK WITH NGC IF THIS COIN REAL OR FAKE.
EVEN NGS PROFESSIONAL GRADERS CAN NOT TELL ONLY BY THE PICTURE IF COIN IS 100% REAL OR NOT. ANY DEALERS, WHO HAS EXPERIENCE OF GRADING COINS KNOWS, THAT YOU HAVE TO SUBMIT COIN IN ORDER TO FIND OUT FOR SURE, IF COIN IS REAL OR FAKE. THAT'S WHY IN OUR OPINION, THE WHOLE DISCUSSION IS BOGUS AND HAS NO VALUE. WE WILL RESUBMIT THIS COIN TO NGC AND WILL GET BACK TO YOU.
THANK YOU.
RESPECTFULLY, LYUBOV3.



 

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2012, 12:17:04 AM »
Hi Jimmy-
Thanks for coming on the Forum- welcome.

We have done business. This topic is not bogus. If you read it from the beginning you will realize fake coins are getting past NGC too, so they may NOT be trusted as the final arbitrators of what is fake and what is real. They make errors.
It is obvious that "lined hair" Mazu is fake. It is even in fake NGC slabs with same number as real ones on NGC Verify so it is easy to see if you want to follow this thread.

I'd like to say, as crude as these fakes are, they are obviously fooling the grading outfits.
Some have passed even though fake. So the grading outfits clearly are not the experts they purport to be.
This Mazu 1987 fake has been seen before. That makes me concerned on how many fakes, Chinese, US, other, are getting by the graders.

Also, fakes are showing up in these fake NGC holders which copy real NGC numbers. That has to be a concern to you and other
Reputable sellers. That is part Of the Message here, that even reputable sellers can and ARE being fooled
by these decent fakes in good fake slabs.

Thank you for yanking the eBay listing.

Now exactly who sold you this fake?
Can we try and stop this by uncovering a common seller
to you, Bellevue Rare Coins, and Modern Coin mart? Are you concerned enough to get involved, ask them, find out, and put an end to this fraud?  Or supply leads for others to help clean it up?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 12:29:15 AM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2012, 12:22:16 AM »
DEAR COMMUNITY,
WE ARE THE SELLERS OF THE 1987 MAZU GOLD 1/4 OZ COIN ON EBAY. OUR ID AND STORE NAME IS LYUBOV3. FIRST OF ALL, WHY YOU DID NOT CONTACT US , AS THE SELLER OF THE ITEM, AND GAVE US YOUR OPINION ABOUT THIS COIN. WE NEVER SELL FAKE
COINS. CHECK OUR FEEDBACKS ON EBAY. BUT ANYTHING POSSIBLE, EVEN BEST OF US CAN MAKE A MISTAKE. WE BOUGHT THIS COIN ALREADY SLABBED FROM VERY KNOWN AND REPUTABLE COIN DEALER . FIRST OF ALL, IN OUR OPINION THIS COIN IS TOO COMMON TO MAKE A FAKE, BUT EVEN SO WE DECIDED TO END THE LISTING OF THIS COIN ON EBAY AND WE WILL CHECK WITH NGC IF THIS COIN REAL OR FAKE.
EVEN NGS PROFESSIONAL GRADERS CAN NOT TELL ONLY BY THE PICTURE IF COIN IS 100% REAL OR NOT. ANY DEALERS, WHO HAS EXPERIENCE OF GRADING COINS KNOWS, THAT YOU HAVE TO SUBMIT COIN IN ORDER TO FIND OUT FOR SURE, IF COIN IS REAL OR FAKE. THAT'S WHY IN OUR OPINION, THE WHOLE DISCUSSION IS BOGUS AND HAS NO VALUE. WE WILL RESUBMIT THIS COIN TO NGC AND WILL GET BACK TO YOU.
THANK YOU.
RESPECTFULLY, LYUBOV3.



Hi, welcome to the forum.

It is my understanding that your 1987 Mazu gold coin was returned once to you as a fake coin by the previous buyer. It was 3 gm lighter than the genuine slab with the genuine coin.



 

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2012, 01:28:15 AM »
DEAR COMMUNITY,
WE ARE THE SELLERS OF THE 1987 MAZU GOLD 1/4 OZ COIN ON EBAY. OUR ID AND STORE NAME IS LYUBOV3. FIRST OF ALL, WHY YOU DID NOT CONTACT US , AS THE SELLER OF THE ITEM, AND GAVE US YOUR OPINION ABOUT THIS COIN. WE NEVER SELL FAKE
COINS. CHECK OUR FEEDBACKS ON EBAY. BUT ANYTHING POSSIBLE, EVEN BEST OF US CAN MAKE A MISTAKE. WE BOUGHT THIS COIN ALREADY SLABBED FROM VERY KNOWN AND REPUTABLE COIN DEALER . FIRST OF ALL, IN OUR OPINION THIS COIN IS TOO COMMON TO MAKE A FAKE, BUT EVEN SO WE DECIDED TO END THE LISTING OF THIS COIN ON EBAY AND WE WILL CHECK WITH NGC IF THIS COIN REAL OR FAKE.
EVEN NGS PROFESSIONAL GRADERS CAN NOT TELL ONLY BY THE PICTURE IF COIN IS 100% REAL OR NOT. ANY DEALERS, WHO HAS EXPERIENCE OF GRADING COINS KNOWS, THAT YOU HAVE TO SUBMIT COIN IN ORDER TO FIND OUT FOR SURE, IF COIN IS REAL OR FAKE. THAT'S WHY IN OUR OPINION, THE WHOLE DISCUSSION IS BOGUS AND HAS NO VALUE. WE WILL RESUBMIT THIS COIN TO NGC AND WILL GET BACK TO YOU.
THANK YOU.
RESPECTFULLY, LYUBOV3.

 

This was the same 1987 Mazu gold coin sold by you on 10/12 and returned by the buyer because it was questionable, due to 3 gm lighter than the genuine coin in genuine slab.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-CHINA-GOLD-1-4-OZ-25-MAZU-NGC-PF-68-ULTRA-CAMEO-/280985981257

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2012, 01:48:08 AM »
Jimmy? What is your answer to that?

( please - not all caps- that does not
give weight, only makes seem like you are shouting)

Thnx-
 
Please- can you help constructively to reveal source of these fakes?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 01:50:59 AM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline jimmy

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2012, 02:31:38 AM »
DEAR COMMUNITY,
YES. WE SOLD THE COIN AND COIN WAS RETURN FOR THE FULL REFUND.
YES, THIS BUYER COMPLAIN THAT COIN AND THE HOLDER SLIGHTLY LIGHTER, THEN IT SUPPOSED TO BE, BUT IT WAS NEVER DISCUSSION THAT IT WAS 3 GRAMS LIGHTER.
WE HAVE A POLICY 14 DAYS RETURN NO QUESTION ASK TO THE FULL SATISFACTION OF ANY CUSTOMER. THIS IS A REASON, WE NEVER ARGUE WITH THE BUYER IF THIS COIN REAL OR FAKE. BUT, LET ME TELL YOU WITH 40 YEARS EXPERIENCE DEALING AND COLLECTING PROFESSIONALY AND PERSONALY, THIS COIN, IN OUR OPINION, IS REAL.
HOWEVER, VERY COMMON ISSUE, ALMOST BULLION. WE  TRUST NGC, AND DO NOT TRUST  ANYBODY, WHO HAS VERY LITTLE EXPERIENCE, OR NONE IN COINS GRADING.
WE DO NOT EVEN KNOW WHO YOU ARE, AND WHAT IS YOUR ID ON EBAY, AND WHAT IS YOUR FEEDBACK SCORE. WE HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE AND WE POST OUR ID AND STORE NAME.  SO, WE DO NOT KNOW YOUR EXPERIENCE, AND WHY QUALIFIED TO BE EXPERT IN THIS FIELD. IN MY OPINION, YOU HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO, SO YOU TRY TO INSALT PEOPLE, YOU DO NOT EVEN KNOW. PLEASE, GET BUSY WITH YOUR LIFE. AND PLEASE, DO NOT REPRESENT YOURSELF. THANK YOU, LYUBOV3.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2012, 02:54:41 AM »
Thanks for your comment jimmy.  We now know you do very little reasearch. If you were truly interested in what you sold, you would see on this thread a controversey regarding the 1987 Mazu merchandise you sell.

Follow the thread, see how there cannot possibly be two non-identical coins, in the same NGC numbered slab.
See how the cons differ: one clearly has lines in the hair, the other doesnt.  You can see that, if you care to take the time to look.

You can come to the conclusion one is not right.  One is fake.  Then its easy to do a little more reasearch to see which one is original. There are websites and links for that.

But no, you can be excused.  You dont care, really, do you?  You are a dealer who sells what you got.
If its returned, its no concern to you why, really, you'll just try to find another buyer.

It was nice doing business with you, once.  I'll choose not risk my money with you, with your current attitude, again.

"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2012, 03:23:44 AM »
Jimmy,
 Is it, as it appears, that you sold this same coin Aug 29, again on Sept 14, and again on Oct 12, when it was returned as being underweight-  And never a Suspicion from you that something was wrong?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline jimmy

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2012, 03:49:09 AM »
DEAR COMMUNITY,
I TELL YOU ONE THING, YOU ARE DEFINETELY NOT AN EXPERT, IF YOU USE THE PICTURE TO DECIDE WHICH COIN IS REAL AND WHICH COIN IS FAKE. SO, WHAT IS YOUR EBAY ID AND WHAT IS YOUR FEEDBACK SCORE, AND WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE IN COINS GRADING?
IN ORDER TO CHECK ANY COIN IS REAL OR FAKE, WE HAVE TO HAVE ACTUAL COIN AND 12 POWER LUPE ( AT LEAST) : FIRST YOU HAVE TO CHECK THE STRIKE, LUSTER, RIM, LETTERS, AND SO ON... PEOPLE LIKE YOU, IS THE MAIN REASON WE SELL SO LITTLE ON EBAY, AND WE PREFFER TO SELL WHOLESALE. MOSTLY, WE HAD GOOD EXPERIENCE WITH EBAY POPULATION. THANK YOU FOR BUYING FROM US BEFORE. AND THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR BUSINESS. END OF DISCUSSION.
THANK YOU.
RESPECTFULLY,LYUBOV3.
P.S. ANY NGC GRADER WILL TELL YOU, THAT YOU HAVE TO TAKE  THE COIN OUT OF THE SLAB FIRST AND THEN DECIDE IF COIN IS REAL OR NOT. USUALLY, IT IS DONE BY THE TEAM OF THREE GRADERS. GET BUSY WITH YOUR LIFE.

Offline GDG's

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2012, 10:14:20 AM »
Jimmy,
 Is it, as it appears, that you sold this same coin Aug 29, again on Sept 14, and again on Oct 12, when it was returned as being underweight-  And never a Suspicion from you that something was wrong?

Nice catch. I did see that particular coin on ebay and I first checked the seller and just flagged him to myself so did not check this coin closely. Anyone who did not check closely may have missed that it was a fake.

I agree the real scary thing is the higher quality fake slab. NGC AND PCGS should band together and do anything possible to put a stop to this quick as it could hurt their business.

Again Great Job.

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2012, 05:38:37 AM »
Dear Jimmy,
Tsk, tsk,,, what you don't understand is you are in way over your head here.
You have been exposed as a repeat offender selling fake coins by some of the best experts there are.  :lol:
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 05:51:33 AM by NBM »

Offline panda88

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Offline panda88

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2012, 01:20:08 PM »
Look like the same cert# to me. The pictures not clear. But sell under difference Ebay ID

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2012, 01:22:27 PM »
Yes, it has the same cert. #.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2012, 01:51:05 PM »
There could be a number of these fake Mazu medals out there with the same certification number.

These counterfeiters have gone through the cost of making realistic slabs and labels and even NGC holograms- and they may have untold amounts of these.
Is there any doubt their eyes are set on a larger operation?

Just a few relatively obscure medals does not make sense-  but to recap we have seen detectable fakes now in these realistic NGC slabs for the 1982 Gold Panda, the 1989 NY Expo Gold Panda, and the 1987 Gold Mazu medal. It makes More sense if it might be a test run of a flood of popular fakes soon to be in progress.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2012, 04:43:23 PM »
Yes, fake coin in fake slab
Compromised account? No activity since '09 then much suspicious activity in 30 days.

Offline panda88

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2012, 06:30:47 PM »
Yes, that makes it three different sellers sold or selling this same cert number 3356524-158, plus
Another in same series 3356524-140, as speculated by SANDAC.  

Its Possible to assume that many of these fakes with same cert numbers are out there, also wonder if a couple sales by a certain seller were not returned in all cases, but simply duplicates sold? Only Jimmy knows,
Maybe can share with us?  Did that Mazu sell three times and was returned three times? Or sold three times and returned only last sale? How to explain three sellers all selling same cert number? (And no they did not steal your photos. )
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 06:37:42 PM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline 从心出发

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2012, 06:54:14 PM »
PCGS also have graded some of the fake 1/4oz gold medal.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2012, 07:19:09 PM »
Oh, and lets not forget the -206 and  -208 sold by Belleview Rare Coins (does anyone know them
well enough to ask?) and the infamous 1- day auction with blurry photos selling two each. -140 by erobinson124
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2012, 08:21:52 PM »
I understand it is controversial to mention our ex-admin's pet project, but eBay transactions involving 3356524-158, -140, -206, -208 are collectively logged 37 times in the CC database dating back to Mar 15 2012.  

The fundamental flaw of faking NGC/PCGS holder is that prospective buyers will do fair-market research on eBay, CCF, Google, or even CC and discover repeated sales of a given cert number.  They'll ask question, then the scam is exposed.


Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2012, 09:13:49 PM »

...the scam is exposed.



If its a bad one.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2012, 05:01:03 PM »

What is up with this 1987 Mazu medal? There are real ones in real NGC slabs, different ones we have to assume fake in the same numbered slab, and now fake ones in Modern Coin Mart Custom slabs?

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3589198-001


NGC deleted the picture of this fake coin in genuine Modern Coin Mart Custom slab from its website yesterday.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2012, 05:34:14 PM »
I understand it is controversial to mention our ex-admin's pet project, but eBay transactions involving 3356524-158, -140, -206, -208 are collectively logged 37 times in the CC database dating back to Mar 15 2012. 

The fundamental flaw of faking NGC/PCGS holder is that prospective buyers will do fair-market research on eBay, CCF, Google, or even CC and discover repeated sales of a given cert number.  They'll ask question, then the scam is exposed.



This is the exact problem of CC and you just prove my concern. Too many fake coins were entered into CC date base. They are being perceived by some users as new variety or restrike. There is no quality control of coin entered. 

Offline Birdman

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2012, 06:24:59 PM »
NGC deleted the picture of this fake coin in genuine Modern Coin Mart Custom slab from its website yesterday.

The next one in the series for that submission (002) was graded as NOT GENUINE.

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3589198-002

So Modern Coin Mart submitted two, and NGC initially deemed one genuine and one not genuine?  And then NGC went back and deleted the "genuine" one?  I assume someone on this forum gave NGC the heads up?

Why does Modern Coin Mart keep coming up in recent discussions (fake coins, shill bidding...?).  Are they just unlucky, and a dealer who has a few problems only because of their high volume of coin transactions?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2012, 06:32:48 PM »
This is the exact problem of CC and you just prove my concern. Too many fake coins were entered into CC date base. They are being perceived by some users as new variety or restrike. There is no quality control of coin entered. 
You may be surprised that I agree 100% with you to the basic framework of Coin Compendium.  It is (I'm quoting Wikipedia) written collaboratively by largely anonymous Internet volunteers who write without pay. Anyone with Internet access can write and make changes to Wikipedia CC articles. 

Wikipedia is a crazy concept, I know, yet I can't argue with its success.  CC may or may not go down the same path.  We'll see...

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Coin Compendium danger ?
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2012, 08:03:21 PM »
A question regarding the Coin Compendium-

Is it a "For Profit " site?

Does the owner make money off it currently in any way,
or have the ability to sell it and / or the information?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2012, 08:17:35 PM »
I was just poked and told that may not be a question that should be asked. 

So, instead,

Who all "owns" the Coin Compendium?

Do any current members or Moderators here have a financial interest in it?

"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2012, 08:24:59 PM »
I was just poked and told that may not be a question that should be asked. 

So, instead,

Who all "owns" the Coin Compendium?

Do any current members or Moderators here have a financial interest in it?


Good question.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2012, 09:34:22 PM »
Hipanda,
You've started a very informative thread on Fake NGC slab danger.  If you agree, perhaps we can move this portion of discussion to a different topic under "general discussion" starting from my reply #54?  I actually have never done this before, so there is a chance I'll blow this portion sky high.  I'll risk it to save an informative topic.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2012, 09:53:18 PM »
I prefer it not be moved, since we are talking about the recent fakes being entered into the Coin Compendium, the accuracy of its data, the relevance of its data considering over thirty of these entries regarding these fakes alone got past everybody, and the potential for mis-use of its data. That all can be influenced by who owns the site, and who financially benefits from it, and knowing whether it is all above board will make collectors whose coins are on it, rest assured.
It makes for a nice continuing topic.

It's not like anybody currently here has anything to hide, ?



« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 09:57:32 PM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2012, 10:14:12 PM »
It's not like anybody currently here has anything to hide, ?
Not at all, and just to be clear to all, I'm not the one "poking" you.  If the "poke" should also apply to me, please PM me as well.

As to who all own CC, I assume it is all badon.  I certainly have no financial involvement past or present, and I'm not aware of any potential for financial involvement in the next 12 months.  I did contribute its content significantly in the past, and likely to contribute sporadically in the near future.  The contributors are anonymous, but I used my same SANDAC moniker there.  All contributions are logged, and anyone can view the log.

I believe it can be an useful tool.  It is still in its infancy, not user friendly, and of limited use, but IMHO, the potential is there.

Offline Silverfever

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2012, 04:45:20 PM »
I just received my 1987 Pf 69 UC panda.

To my newbie eyes, when I compare it to Sandac's key points, i think the coin is authentic.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2012, 05:02:21 PM »
I just received my 1987 Pf 69 UC panda.

To my newbie eyes, when I compare it to Sandac's key points, i think the coin is authentic.

Silverfever:

This is a long-running thread. Your reference of "sandac's key points", what are the "key points"? And you said, "the coin is authentic". There are quite a few coins mentioned in this thread, mostly counterfeits. Which coin you refer to as "authentic"? Do you mind posting a photo of that PF 69 coin you just received back? Thanks.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2012, 05:10:20 PM »
Silverfever:

This is a long-running thread. Your reference of "sandac's key points", what are the "key points"? And you said, "the coin is authentic". There are quite a few coins mentioned in this thread, mostly counterfeits. Which coin you refer to as "authentic"? Do you mind posting a photo of that PF 69 coin you just received back? Thanks.

Silverfever:

Never mind. I went back to the beginning of this thread and realize you are referring to the 87 panda you bought from that seller.

Offline silver222

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #64 on: November 22, 2012, 04:52:34 PM »
DEAR COMMUNITY,
YES. WE SOLD THE COIN AND COIN WAS RETURN FOR THE FULL REFUND.
YES, THIS BUYER COMPLAIN THAT COIN AND THE HOLDER SLIGHTLY LIGHTER, THEN IT SUPPOSED TO BE, BUT IT WAS NEVER DISCUSSION THAT IT WAS 3 GRAMS LIGHTER.
WE HAVE A POLICY 14 DAYS RETURN NO QUESTION ASK TO THE FULL SATISFACTION OF ANY CUSTOMER. THIS IS A REASON, WE NEVER ARGUE WITH THE BUYER IF THIS COIN REAL OR FAKE. BUT, LET ME TELL YOU WITH 40 YEARS EXPERIENCE DEALING AND COLLECTING PROFESSIONALY AND PERSONALY, THIS COIN, IN OUR OPINION, IS REAL.
HOWEVER, VERY COMMON ISSUE, ALMOST BULLION. WE  TRUST NGC, AND DO NOT TRUST  ANYBODY, WHO HAS VERY LITTLE EXPERIENCE, OR NONE IN COINS GRADING.
WE DO NOT EVEN KNOW WHO YOU ARE, AND WHAT IS YOUR ID ON EBAY, AND WHAT IS YOUR FEEDBACK SCORE. WE HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE AND WE POST OUR ID AND STORE NAME.  SO, WE DO NOT KNOW YOUR EXPERIENCE, AND WHY QUALIFIED TO BE EXPERT IN THIS FIELD. IN MY OPINION, YOU HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO, SO YOU TRY TO INSALT PEOPLE, YOU DO NOT EVEN KNOW. PLEASE, GET BUSY WITH YOUR LIFE. AND PLEASE, DO NOT REPRESENT YOURSELF. THANK YOU, LYUBOV3.

Jimmy,

With 40 years of experience in the business you certainly are aware that even the experts at NGC and PCGS sometimes make mistakes, and that even reputable dealers could be caught unknowingly in rare cases.  99% of ebay buyers are hoping for a "good deal", and as is often the case... you get what you pay for.  1% are experts at both navigating ebay's shark infested waters and avoiding the pitfalls of the other 99%.  You have encountered a one percenter.  While we wait for the response from NGC, it would benefit you to go back and carefully study all the details around this particular case.  Your reputation as a dealer is at stake, on one of the most respected forums regarding MCC coins.

silver222

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2012, 09:05:59 PM »
I once encountered an eBay seller, claimed to have 50+ years of experience, that called me every names in the book and insulted my family when I try to inform him the 1989 silver panda listed is not a Proof because it does not have a circle P marking.

Just my 2 cents.

Offline silver222

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2012, 12:57:50 AM »
Unfortunately this was very common in the early ebay days when both sellers and buyers could leave feedback openly.  The worst sellers always complained the loudest, proclaiming their innocence and slamming reputable buyers with slander, name calling and worse!  Many Sellers disliked the early system, but as a buyer, I quite liked it because you could immediately tell which sellers to avoid... not by the fact that they didn't have 100% feedback, but by the character of their response to issues that always arise when dealing large volumes of sales.

Jimmy's response here on the forum reminded me of those early ebay days.  No $$$ will be flowing from these pockets to his account until a more reasonable response is posted, of which he should have the opportunity.  Having reputable dealers participate in the forum has proven beneficial in the past, to both dealers and buyers, even when suspicious behavior was brought to light.  The bad ones will avoid forums like this like the plague!

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2012, 01:38:41 PM »
I bought this replica of Mazu for $2.25 (plus $4 shipping) for the specific purpose of sacrificing it to the science of numismatics.  It was specifically stated as replica in the eBay auction.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221161177967?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Here are some statistics:  6.49g (I calibrated my digital scale by measuring a silver eagle which reads 31.10g) and non magnetic.  I'm soliciting inputs to test it, eventually I will saw it in half.  But first, do we believe this is the same type of Mazu fake that got placed in NGC holders?

I took a number of photo with different angle of light and tilted the coins slightly.  First the obverse.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2012, 01:41:26 PM »
Now the reverse.  You can see the coin is quite dirty.  I have already dipped it in acetone for a few hours.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2012, 01:45:26 PM »
Please let me know how you want to test it.

Does anyone has access to a XRF?  I can sent the coin to whomever with XRF access.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2012, 02:23:09 PM »
I bought this replica of Mazu for $2.25 (plus $4 shipping) for the specific purpose of sacrificing it to the science of numismatics.  ?....eventually I will saw it in half. 

Hey I wanted to buy that fake medal too, for the exact same purpose, but got busy and missed the auction end.  I didn't want it bid up - can you imagine both you and I bidding up the price of a fake,  with both of us only intending to cut it in half and take photos? LOL!

I am glad you "won" it- now I will rest easy now knowing it'll be analyzed and shown.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2012, 02:23:56 PM »
A close friend of mine works with x-ray technology, but is out of the country until early January. I won't be able to contact him until then. He might have the equipment necessary to test the coin. He designs equipment for airports, etc.


Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2012, 12:59:52 AM »
More fakes showing up...In Fake NGC holders.....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-CHINA-GOLD-1-4-OZ-MAZU-PF-69-ULTRA-CAMEO-/281040050139?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item416f4ad7db


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-CHINA-GOLD-1-4-OZ-PANDA-NEW-YORK-EXPO-PF-69-ULTRA-CAMEO-/281040047161?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item416f4acc39

This seller, lyubov3 (a.k.a jimmy), had that coin returned to him many times. Yet he's still trying to sell it as "genuine", hoping to catch a unsuspecting victim. This is an unscrupulous seller by any standard. Let's band together and boycott him.


Offline mcc168

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2012, 01:36:24 AM »
Reported both fake coins to eBay. Hope eBay will do something to this seller.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2012, 10:45:40 AM »
The Mazu listing is removed, but the 1/4 oz panda NY Expo is still there.  Its cert number is 2758069-003 and NGC lists that coin as "DELETED" just like the Mazu listing 3356524-206

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=2758069-003
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3356524-206

The Mazu listed above is different than the one at the beginning of this thread which was 3356524-158, which was also one of the 4 deleted cert numbers from the 3356524 series.  Our friend Jimmy seems to have the worst luck of getting DELETED NGC slabs.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #78 on: December 20, 2012, 02:27:02 AM »
Same coin again :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-CHINA-GOLD-1-4-OZ-PANDA-NEW-YORK-EXPO-PF-68-ULTRA-CAMEO-/281041097579?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item416f5ad36b

Reported seller as well as coin.  NGC Cert. # 2770113-003. This is a fake coin in a fake NGC holder.
This seller (lyubov3) has listed many fake coins in fake holders with different NGC cert. # during last few weeks.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #79 on: December 20, 2012, 02:31:30 AM »

Thanks, Poconopenn,

Yes, but that didn't stop him from coming on this Forum, and SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS at us how ignorant we were and how experienced and trustworthy and (my favorite) "reputable" a seller he is.
Yet oddly, he keeps trying to sell over and over again, the same old fake N36


(Reported, as well- for the umpteenth time)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 02:34:54 AM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline dkhalsa

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #80 on: December 20, 2012, 08:54:30 AM »
I am a proud owner of this FAKE:: NGC Cert. # 2770113-003 also.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #81 on: December 20, 2012, 11:40:18 AM »
I am a proud owner of this FAKE:: NGC Cert. # 2770113-003 also.
Could you tell us where did you purchase this fake and show detailed pictures of the slab, front and back?

The three NGC numbers to avoid regarding 1989 1/4 oz NY Expo are:
2765913-015
2770113-003
2758069-003
lyubov3 managed to sell all three, repeatly

Many of known fakes with NGC slabs are marked as "DELETED" in NGC database.  Maybe this is NGC's way of informing people of potential fakes.  I have a growing list of DELETED (37 at this moment) as I delved into NGC database.  I guess I should talked to NGC first before I publish the full list.


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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2012, 03:09:54 PM »
lyubov3 relisted 2758069-003 again.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-CHINA-GOLD-1-4-OZ-PANDA-NEW-YORK-EXPO-PF-69-ULTRA-CAMEO-/281041099289?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item416f5ada19

Reported again.

List for 2770113-003 was removed by ebay immediately after reported.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #83 on: December 20, 2012, 03:12:48 PM »
I also reported his fake gold coins several times. Yet, each time he relisted the coins immediately after listing being removed - this seller has no shame or conscience.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2012, 03:45:03 PM »
Sandac

I posted photo's of 2770113-003 on the thread below.
<http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3345.msg33504#msg33504> in Feb.

Could post more if required. Purchased on ebay and did report once I got affirmation from the forum.
 I recently saw on NGC that it had been DELETED. Not knowing what that meant I contacted to inquire. The response was send a photo which I did. They confirmed FAKE..I inquired as to clues, from my novice eye. it is hard to tell the real from? NGC wouldn't reveal any clues, saying they have secret (somethings) as clues. But wouldn't reveal as they are secret.
Told me to look at slabs of authentic and compare..I have and other then shaking( the fake rattles ) the slab there's not much difference.

Harder to tell slab counterfeit then the coin.

Has anyone broken a FAKE  slab open yet??
Love to by don't want to ruin it's future FAKE collector value.




Could you tell us where did you purchase this fake and show detailed pictures of the slab, front and back?

The three NGC numbers to avoid regarding 1989 1/4 oz NY Expo are:
2765913-015
2770113-003
2758069-003
lyubov3 managed to sell all three, repeatly

Many of known fakes with NGC slabs are marked as "DELETED" in NGC database.  Maybe this is NGC's way of informing people of potential fakes.  I have a growing list of DELETED (37 at this moment) as I delved into NGC database.  I guess I should talked to NGC first before I publish the full list.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2012, 04:05:40 PM »
Here are pictures of fake 1989 NY Expo. gold coin in fake NGC 2758069-003 for future reference.

Genuine NGC coin can be seen in NGC website. Grade was marked as "deleted".

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=2758069-003

I am sure that NGC staff is reading this thread. What is  the definition of "grade deleted " in NGC website? Many members of CCF are also NGC member. As  members, we have the right to know.


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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #86 on: December 20, 2012, 04:41:57 PM »

  Purchased on ebay 


dkhalsa:

Please disclose the name of the seller, so we can all keep an eye on these fake-coin sellers.  Thanks.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #87 on: December 20, 2012, 05:27:27 PM »
Hey SANDAC- did you "test" your fake Mazu yet in any manner?  (Acid, grinder, hacksaw, Vegematic? ....) N4

Probably waiting for the electric density gizmo first, I gather?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline dkhalsa

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #88 on: December 20, 2012, 07:48:11 PM »
   Below is the item listing on eBay

 (260962303933)
diaz2012shopping was the seller but has been delisted.
He was listed as being in Canada but the item was shipped from CPX in Rosemount California.
Another of suspicion is  dodsongreat1113 from eBay who also was listed in Canada but shipped from Rosemount also.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2012, 08:11:47 PM »
Hey SANDAC- did you "test" your fake Mazu yet in any manner?  (Acid, grinder, hacksaw, Vegematic? ....) N4

Probably waiting for the electric density gizmo first, I gather?
I AM planning on a homebrew density measurement.

I'm not at the destructive testing phase yet.  A forum member has provided me with a contact who will perform XRF test for a modest fee.  I'll wait after the Christmas to ship the item to him.  In the meantime I took the coin around town to talk to precious metal buyers and coin dealers and looking for XRF capability locally.  It interesting how dealers/buyers can just feel the coin, inspect it with their ever-present loupe and pronouce it a plated coin.

I did have an interersting conversation with a coin dealer who had a XRF at one time about solid vs plated coins.  He confirms that XRF can look through encapsulated slabs and get accurate readings.  He says it is easy to tell a Morgan dollar (90% silver) from heavily silver-plated fake Morgan dollar because silver plating is almost always pure silver so XRF will read 100% silver.  It is possible to electroplate with 90% silver alloy, but he says the coin surface will look "lumpy".  I don't know what that means, but substituting "Pagoda" for "Morgan", I have the feeling that an experienced dealer or grader can tell silver-plated from sterling silver quite easily. 

We can also take our encapsulated Pagoda and run it through XRF to tell whether it is sterling silver or 100% silver.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2012, 09:18:48 PM »
Sandac

I posted photo's of 2770113-003 on the thread below.
<http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3345.msg33504#msg33504> in Feb.

Could post more if required. Purchased on ebay and did report once I got affirmation from the forum.
 I recently saw on NGC that it had been DELETED. Not knowing what that meant I contacted to inquire. The response was send a photo which I did. They confirmed FAKE..I inquired as to clues, from my novice eye. it is hard to tell the real from? NGC wouldn't reveal any clues, saying they have secret (somethings) as clues. But wouldn't reveal as they are secret.
Told me to look at slabs of authentic and compare..I have and other then shaking( the fake rattles ) the slab there's not much difference.

Harder to tell slab counterfeit then the coin.

Has anyone broken a FAKE  slab open yet??
Love to by don't want to ruin it's future FAKE collector value.
I went back to your original posts that you've provided a link to.  I think you have a case of bait-and-switch.  The original fuzzy photo looks close enough, but the one you received is definitely not the one advertised.  I place three photo together, the left one is the advertised photo, the center one is what you received, and the right one is the NGC file photo for 2770113-003.  The left and right ones are close enough, but the center one is definitely a different design.  See the difference in the pattern of the floral ring.  Furthurmore, the fake coin has a smaller diameter than the real coin.  This is why it rattle in the NGC holder as you've reported.  Does this means the forger does not have access to different size of inserts, so they use the same insert as in the original holder?  Not only does a forger has to fake the slab, label, NGC hologram, they also have to have a wide range of inserts to hold different size coin, but that's too much work so given a limited selection of insert, they can only forge just few size of coins.  
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 09:25:15 PM by SANDAC »

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2012, 09:44:12 PM »
NGC said they will accept all graded silver pagodas for their inspection process.........

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2012, 11:15:11 PM »
I went back to your original posts that you've provided a link to.  I think you have a case of bait-and-switch.  The original fuzzy photo looks close enough, but the one you received is definitely not the one advertised.  I place three photo together, the left one is the advertised photo, the center one is what you received, and the right one is the NGC file photo for 2770113-003.  The left and right ones are close enough, but the center one is definitely a different design.  See the difference in the pattern of the floral ring.  Furthurmore, the fake coin has a smaller diameter than the real coin.  This is why it rattle in the NGC holder as you've reported.  Does this means the forger does not have access to different size of inserts, so they use the same insert as in the original holder?  Not only does a forger has to fake the slab, label, NGC hologram, they also have to have a wide range of inserts to hold different size coin, but that's too much work so given a limited selection of insert, they can only forge just few size of coins.   

Based on the pictures, the fake coin does not have reeded edges.

Offline dkhalsa

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2012, 10:00:24 AM »
The bait and switch theory, makes  sense and obvious.
Thanks for your learned eye and knowledge.

The edge is reeded, as you will see with updated photos.
In it all, it is a good learning.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 10:16:08 AM by dkhalsa »

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #94 on: December 26, 2012, 07:27:11 AM »
Yes i agree with your thought. There is too much corruption so be careful when you invest money for buying gold coins. There is a little bit difference  between the original and duplicate.SANDAC represent in a very good way.Thanks SANDAC.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #95 on: December 31, 2012, 05:52:56 PM »
I recently purchased a 1987 Mazu coin on ebay. The seller made no mention that it was an NGC graded coin. The picture of the coin did not show the NGC holder. To my surprise, when I got the coin in the mail, it was NGC graded PF 69 deep cameo. It is in slab -206. Has a hologram on it and looks completely real. The day after I purchased the coin, ebay notified me the auction had been cancelled, but at that point I had already paid. The seller according to ebay was in British Columbia, but the coin itself came from China. The address the coin was shipped from was as follows...
yehonglian
floor2,building1,no.8 changting road
daxin industrial park
Suzhou Jiangsu
China 215151

The coin came with a note saying the reason the NGC label appeared faint was because the seller had owned it for over 10 years. Another odd note...on the package the seller declared this package as containing a necklace worth just 15$.
The coin has all of the "fake" characteristics as displayed in the photos in the earlier thread. I looked on NGC website and compared it to the original and can see obvious differences...I would have done this comparison earlier if I had known my purhcase was a graded coin, but the seller did not mention it was graded, and the picture was very blurry. Wish I would have read all of these comments before I bought it. Hope my information helps you all in your cause. -Steve

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #96 on: December 31, 2012, 06:00:21 PM »
I recently purchased a 1987 Mazu coin on ebay. The seller made no mention that it was an NGC graded coin. The picture of the coin did not show the NGC holder. To my surprise, when I got the coin in the mail, it was NGC graded PF 69 deep cameo. It is in slab -206. Has a hologram on it and looks completely real. The day after I purchased the coin, ebay notified me the auction had been cancelled, but at that point I had already paid. The seller according to ebay was in British Columbia, but the coin itself came from China. The address the coin was shipped from was as follows...
yehonglian
floor2,building1,no.8 changting road
daxin industrial park
Suzhou Jiangsu
China 215151

The coin came with a note saying the reason the NGC label appeared faint was because the seller had owned it for over 10 years. Another odd note...on the package the seller declared this package as containing a necklace worth just 15$.
The coin has all of the "fake" characteristics as displayed in the photos in the earlier thread. I looked on NGC website and compared it to the original and can see obvious differences...I would have done this comparison earlier if I had known my purhcase was a graded coin, but the seller did not mention it was graded, and the picture was very blurry. Wish I would have read all of these comments before I bought it. Hope my information helps you all in your cause. -Steve

Swoodrin81:

This coin and transaction looked very suspicious, to say the least. The fact that ebay notified you the auction had been cancelled should be alarming enough. If I were you, I would file a "not as described" case with eBay immediately asking for refund. There's a 99.99% chance you will be successful with your case. Be sure to take careful photos and keep documents of all paper trails to ensure getting your money back.  Good luck.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 06:03:14 PM by dynamike51 »

Offline Silverfever

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #97 on: December 31, 2012, 08:18:06 PM »
Do you mind sharing the seller's ebay ID so that we can avoid him?

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #98 on: January 01, 2013, 11:41:14 AM »
etdugio....the listing was removed from ebay, but not until after I purchased the item...the seller hasnt sold anything since and has 0 feedback.
Thanks

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #100 on: January 01, 2013, 08:45:32 PM »
Another one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1989-panda-gold-coin-pf-69-ultra-cameo-/170968384959?pt=Bullion_US&hash=item27ce8285bf

Here's what he said

thank u for bringing this to my attention. the coin has been tested and was passed by the ngc. the coin was also looked at by Bellevue rare coins as well so I am pretty sure it is real thanks again.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #101 on: January 01, 2013, 08:54:46 PM »
Hey- if I recall, didn't Bellevue sell others of these?  Does anybody know them well enough to ask them their source?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

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Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #104 on: January 02, 2013, 11:47:19 PM »
Reported.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2013, 11:54:06 PM »

Offline comeaux

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #109 on: January 06, 2013, 11:58:33 PM »
NGC has marked it's cert "Grade:DELETED"
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3497329-009
Do we know yet what "Grade:DELETED" means?

Here is one example of what it represents:

NGC coin # 2766829-040 (Guangzhou Panda) was submitted to NCS for conservation then re-holdered as #3688437-001 after it was sent from NCS to NGC. 

Now if you perform certification lookup for #2766829-040 it gives a description of the coin but grade states “deleted”

This is done because the initial certification number has been removed/deleted in order to keep the census numbers accurate or as accurate as reasonably possible.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2013, 12:10:59 AM »
Thanks Comeaux , That is very interesting and seems to make sense ..
There is probably answers to alot of questions that just need to be translated

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2013, 12:14:21 AM »
Reported. This is the same fake coin in fake NGC holder in previously removed list (170968384959). This time, the same seller is trying one day listing to avoid being reported.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2013, 12:17:35 AM »
Reported. This is the same fake coin in fake NGC holder in previously removed list (170968384959). This time, the same seller is trying one day listing to avoid being reported.
Auction ended , That was fast....

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2013, 12:41:41 AM »
Here is one example of what it represents:

NGC coin # 2766829-040 (Guangzhou Panda) was submitted to NCS for conservation then re-holdered as #3688437-001 after it was sent from NCS to NGC. 

Now if you perform certification lookup for #2766829-040 it gives a description of the coin but grade states “deleted”

This is done because the initial certification number has been removed/deleted in order to keep the census numbers accurate or as accurate as reasonably possible.


All fake coins in fake NGC holders discussed in this thread show grade deleted at NGC website.  Are you suggesting that those deleted Cert. #s are being used by counterfeiters for their fake holder?

Offline comeaux

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2013, 01:08:17 AM »
All fake coins in fake NGC holders discussed in this thread show grade deleted at NGC website.  Are you suggesting that those deleted Cert. #s are being used by counterfeiters for their fake holder?

poconopenn it is a possibility that is one scenario of what is happening, I can’t say for sure but I will communicate this question to one of the contacts I have at NGC tomorrow. There is at least one (or a few) from NGC that visit this site on random occasions to read but it’s possible there may be some hesitance to post here.

The coin example that I posted is real scenario and the coin certification numbers are correct, I know this because I personally submitted the coin to NCS for conservation. The grade on the original certification number did not reveal “deleted” until it was NCS conserved, re-holdered and shipped back with it’s new certification number.   

These thieves are obviously using various methods to obtain “deleted” coin certifications for the purpose of slabbing their fake coins.   

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2013, 03:05:05 AM »
Here is one example of what it represents:

NGC coin # 2766829-040 (Guangzhou Panda) was submitted to NCS for conservation then re-holdered as #3688437-001 after it was sent from NCS to NGC. 

Now if you perform certification lookup for #2766829-040 it gives a description of the coin but grade states “deleted”

This is done because the initial certification number has been removed/deleted in order to keep the census numbers accurate or as accurate as reasonably possible.


So we can we assume any coin offered for sale with a "Grade:DELETED" cert is fake?

Offline comeaux

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2013, 10:54:20 AM »
So we can we assume any coin offered for sale with a "Grade:DELETED" cert is fake?
I think that could be a fair assumption …           

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2013, 11:47:07 AM »
I think that could be a fair assumption …           
+1 applaud Thank you.
Adding this information to our fraud reports may be the fastest way to get eBay to pull them.
  ;)

Offline comeaux

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2013, 05:43:00 PM »
All fake coins in fake NGC holders discussed in this thread show grade deleted at NGC website.  Are you suggesting that those deleted Cert. #s are being used by counterfeiters for their fake holder?
Hello poconopenn ... here is what has been conveyed by NGC regarding "deleted"

"There are a number of reasons why a certification number might show up as "deleted," such as a coin being regraded, a coin being cracked out and the tag returned, etc. If you see a coin for sale with a cert number that has been deleted, you should contact NGC so that we can look into it. In many cases it may be a simple database error, but in a few instances there are counterfeit NGC holders that use deleted cert numbers"

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #119 on: January 07, 2013, 07:50:53 PM »
I bought this replica of Mazu for $2.25 (plus $4 shipping) for the specific purpose of sacrificing it to the science of numismatics.  It was specifically stated as replica in the eBay auction.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221161177967?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Here are some statistics:  6.49g (I calibrated my digital scale by measuring a silver eagle which reads 31.10g) and non magnetic.  I'm soliciting inputs to test it, eventually I will saw it in half.  But first, do we believe this is the same type of Mazu fake that got placed in NGC holders?
I made some more measurements:
Diameter, 21.8mm (should be 22mm)
thickness, 2.2mm
density, 8.9

I perform the density measurement by suspending the coin by a thin thread in water and measure the weight of displaced water.  Density is calculated by dividing dry weight (6.49g) by weight of displaced water (0.73g) =8.9.  Copper density at room temperature is 8.94 while gold is 19.3.  

I sent it off for XRF measurement and below is the report.  Summary:
2.03% gold
0.186% zinc
91.53 copper
6.26% nickel

So it is definitely a gold-plated Mazu replica.

Well, that's that.  Are there more tests you guys want me to do?

« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 07:54:29 PM by SANDAC »

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #120 on: January 07, 2013, 08:38:48 PM »
Are there more tests you guys want me to do?


Just kidding....

that's enough... we now know it's just a cheap copper core plated fake.

Excellent job Sandac!  Maybe now we can use that analysis over and over to get these fakes off ebay? The more worrisome thing is the high quality fake NGC slab, and how the crooks now seek out certain certification numbers which have been deleted. The crooks are getting more sophisticated - be wary !

And again, does anyone have the contacts with the larger sellers who have seen these ie Bellevue Rare Coins? to ask and help trace the source of these fakes?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 08:46:05 PM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #121 on: January 07, 2013, 08:42:35 PM »
I made some more measurements:
Diameter, 21.8mm (should be 22mm)
thickness, 2.2mm
density, 8.9

I perform the density measurement by suspending the coin by a thin thread in water and measure the weight of displaced water.  Density is calculated by dividing dry weight (6.49g) by weight of displaced water (0.73g) =8.9.  Copper density at room temperature is 8.94 while gold is 19.3.  

I sent it off for XRF measurement and below is the report.  Summary:
2.03% gold
0.186% zinc
91.53 copper
6.26% nickel

So it is definitely a gold-plated Mazu replica.

Well, that's that.  Are there more tests you guys want me to do?



SANDAC,

Excellent work. !!! Hats off to you.   N34 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Offline silver222

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #122 on: January 07, 2013, 08:49:09 PM »
 :lol: ROFL... only thing funnier would have been a pic of Freddy with a chainsaw!

The density measurement is intriguing... I'm wondering if there is anyway to get a relative comparison without getting the coins wet (possibly by sealing each in an small airtite plasitic bag before the dip test?)  maybe the displacement measurement is too sensitive for such a test)

How about side by side measurements (real vs fake) of width, thickness and weight, along with side by side photos of any visible differences?

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #123 on: January 07, 2013, 09:27:43 PM »
Good job sandac
I didn't realize that place is close to were I live

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #124 on: January 07, 2013, 09:33:03 PM »
SANDAC, is XRF that accurate?  It can show the composition of the coin?  Earlier posts here said the equipment cannot penetrate thick silver plate.  Can it penetrate thick silver plate?........

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #125 on: January 07, 2013, 09:41:53 PM »
Poconopenn first raised the question of whether XRF can detect the type of thick silver plating that is heavily plated first then die stamped.  It is also called "clad", it is heavier than just thin cheap plating applied after minting.
It is thought that this thicker type of plating might be used on some Pagodas and some goldfish and other medals and may be able to pass casual inspection, since it leaves no coining marks, can be frosted, and maybe pass XRF as well since it is thick.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #126 on: January 07, 2013, 10:32:44 PM »
typo: meant to say "leaves coining marks"
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #127 on: January 07, 2013, 11:24:47 PM »
The problem I try to solve is the non-destructive testing of fake coins in high quality slabs.  The fake NY Expo and Mazu are easy because they are different designs from the real ones.  A side-by-side comparison with NGC file photo is sufficient to demonstrate the differences.  For higher quality fake I'm thinking of three possible approaches:
1.  XRF.  As you can see, the XRF has excellent resolution to three digits, so it can accurately determine whether the metalic composition matches the original.  I also believe the thickly plated gold or silver coins are done with pure gold/silver.  So XRF can easily distinguish pure silver plated coin from sterling silver.  If I can get my hand on a NGC certified silver-plated Pagoda, I'll submit both plated and solid silver for XRF test to check out that theory
2.  Varieties guide.  Frosting and mirrored field variations are common in MCC.  So much so, we don't pay much attention to them.  However, a forger has the challenge of matching the subtle variety of the forged coin with the real coin.  So, the more we know about (and publish) the subtle differences and where to look in a coin, the more we are able to determine whether the purported coin matches the real one in NGC/PCGS file.
3.  DELETED grade.  If a slabbed coin is graded as "DELETED", it is definitely questionable and should be avoided.  I don't yet know whether it is a case of forger looking for deleted certification numbers to copy or NGC marked a coin DELETED after it being reported and verified as forgery.  I'm 1/3 of the way into compiling a DELETED database.  It doesn't happen that often, there are about 160 DELETED entries out of 33,000, so about 0.5%
4.  I'm sure there are a lot more good ideas out there.  An active fake coin forum, closer working relationship with eBay and NGC/PCGS, publish the slab weight for each certification number, etc.  We only have one poconopenn and we are all eager to learn from him, but I also think there are measurements and data that us non-expert can do or lookup and provide important clues about potential fake coins.  Forgery is a deadly poison to this hobby, we should all get involved.

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #128 on: January 07, 2013, 11:56:28 PM »
Forgery is a deadly poison to this hobby, we should all get involved.
+1  N48

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #129 on: January 08, 2013, 08:46:16 AM »
This is very important so I forwarded this page to NGC to get their opinion.  Hopefully they will respond to CCF and if they email me then I will post.  I was told in the past that one of NGC's highest priority is the accurate composition of coins/medals to avoid fakes.  NGC has the new equipment to detect metal in coins/medals.   Lets see what they have to say............

Offline panda88

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Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #131 on: January 09, 2013, 03:13:14 PM »
Thank you for reporting.  It is clearly not the same coin as shown in NGC file photo.

Offline cabaretvolt

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #132 on: January 09, 2013, 03:30:21 PM »
ngc should add an additional # on the description label written in ink only visible under UV lighting
whereby buyer of hypothetical can enter this additional number to verify that at bare minimum
any forger had at least had the authentic coin in hand at one point

this would at least help make it more of a pain in the ass for forgers

although i really havn't thought this thing through very far and might
actually create more problems than solves  N20
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 03:33:43 PM by cabaretvolt »
"Okay, You people sit tight, hold the fort and keep the home fires burning. And if we're not back by dawn... call the president" - Burton

Offline panda88

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #133 on: January 14, 2013, 12:18:08 PM »
I have a question. I have won the auction from 1 of the seller in Ebay. But few hours after that I received the message from Ebay:
Thanks for your interest in this listing:

281048133796 - 1989 CHINA GOLD 1/2 OZ 50 YUAN GEM BU SEALED

We're sorry to tell you that the item isn't available for purchase anymore. We removed the listing because it likely fell into one of these three categories:

-- The listing doesn't follow eBay guidelines.
-- The item isn't allowed on eBay or can only be listed under certain conditions.
-- The listing contains pictures or words that may have violated copyright or trademark rights.

This is disappointing for everyone, but sometimes it's an action we have to take to protect you as a buyer.

Important: If you won the item and haven't paid for it yet, you don't need to complete the transaction. If you've already paid for the item, we encourage you to contact the seller to get more information about the transaction. If you don't receive the item, your purchase price plus original shipping may be covered by the eBay resolution proces.

That mean the seller sell the "FAKE COIN " AGAIN ?? . Thanks

Offline panda88

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #134 on: January 26, 2013, 09:21:39 PM »
one more this one look worst.
w.ebay.com/itm/1989-Gold-Panda-coin-25-yuan-NGC-PF69UC-18TH-NY-EXPO-1-4-oz-999-5-K-Mintage-/200885722488?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2ec5b8dd78


Offline Dr650rob

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #136 on: January 26, 2013, 11:40:15 PM »
thats a bummer i wonder if the seller knows its fake
i thought he was a reputable seller

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #137 on: January 26, 2013, 11:42:05 PM »
thats a bummer i wonder if the seller knows its fake
i thought he was a reputable seller

I stand behind this guy. He's a friend of mine, and he didn't know that was a fake. As soon as I notified him of the problem, he ended the auction.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #138 on: January 26, 2013, 11:47:12 PM »
I stand behind this guy. He's a friend of mine, and he didn't know that was a fake. As soon as I notified him of the problem, he ended the auction.
Thanks for doing that.  Will you ask him where the coin come from?  It would be really nice to get to the source of the fake.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2013, 09:28:00 AM »
Michael of pandamoney-a is 100% against fakes, but looks like he even got caught.   The fakes are that good?  I contacted him too and waiting for reply.  He will get after this one.  Fake MCC, fake US coins and fake bullion.  Even the forgers know the coin/bullion market is the future.  What a mess and more fakes on the way.  We gotta stop this.   Remember my comment on post office thefts?  I said to call the FBI and Postal inspector on every theft and raise heck.  That is how we get attention to our problem.  The more complaints then the better chance of future investigations.  Sqeeky wheel gets the grease.  IF we keep quiet then the problems of fakes and thefts continue to grow.  ...............

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #140 on: January 27, 2013, 04:15:52 PM »
Another fake Mazu, grade once again listed by NGC as "Deleted".
Ad describes coin 3356524-140, but photo is of another coin, and blurred.

Certification Number: 3356524-140
Date/Info: 1987 1/4oz CHINA MAZU - 1000TH ANNIVERSARY GOLD
Denomination: MEDAL
Grade: DELETED

"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #141 on: January 29, 2013, 09:09:46 AM »
Yet another fake Mazu.  NGC Grade "Deleted".  Certification number 3356524-208, seen sold many times implying many counterfeits with this fake -208 Certification number have been sold.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-China-Gold-1-4-25-Oz-Ounce-Mazu-PF69-Ultra-Cameo-NGC-Coin-999-/140911039138?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item20cef3d2a2

Verify NGC Certification
Certification Number: 3356524-208
Date/Info: 1987 1/4oz CHINA MAZU - 1000TH ANNIVERSARY GOLD
Denomination: MEDAL
Grade: DELETED

First photo shows fake medal in fake NGC holder, on ebay.  Note tell-tale lines in hair.
Second photo shows real medal, in real NGC holder, same NGC Certification number, so counterfeiters are stealing
NGC numbers and putting cheap counterfeit medals in fake NGC holders which are good enough to pass casual inpection.


« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 09:31:08 AM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #142 on: January 29, 2013, 11:47:12 AM »
Reported with the text of your post.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #143 on: January 29, 2013, 12:04:29 PM »
Have seen a few of these for sale in the Vancouver BC or Canada area.  Could that be the source?  It is a large Chinese community........

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #144 on: January 29, 2013, 12:44:41 PM »
Michael of pandamoney-a is 100% against fakes, but looks like he even got caught.   The fakes are that good?  I contacted him too and waiting for reply. 

Any reply on the source?

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #145 on: January 29, 2013, 01:22:10 PM »
Any reply on the source?

This is what he told me: "I tried to go back and look for the listing...but ebay has  removed it.... It was something like twilson or toriwilson it was not a US seller..... I can't remember but  I think it was somewhere in Asia."

Speaking of eBay fake seller, "eanderxxx" earned himself a spot on that list - he has two: 1982 1/4 oz panda and a 1987 Mazu. I reported both, but eBay has yet to take them down.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #146 on: January 29, 2013, 01:45:00 PM »
If he wanted, there are other ways he could retrace and determine exactly who the seller was.  Payment records, emails, etc.

It appears so far no seller wants to take responsibility to see this fraud gets stopped.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #147 on: January 29, 2013, 02:26:53 PM »
If he wanted, there are other ways he could retrace and determine exactly who the seller was.  Payment records, emails, etc.

It appears so far no seller wants to take responsibility to see this fraud gets stopped.

With your superior detective and people skills, I'm sure you can take the initiative to contact him and stop the fraudulent activity single-handedly. :thumbup:

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #148 on: January 29, 2013, 03:05:58 PM »
Why the uncalled-for dig?   :confused1:

Wishing you a better day - 
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline GDG's

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #149 on: January 29, 2013, 03:10:23 PM »
 :thumbup: :thumbup:I don't think it was a dig. I think it was being honest. I certainly appreciate all you and others do to ferret out these swine chiselers.

Offline poconopenn

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Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #151 on: January 29, 2013, 03:48:37 PM »
Payment To:   Torri Wilson
Seller's ID:   atorriwilson
Seller's Email:   
craftbhxsaz@hotmail.com

Offline GDG's

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #152 on: January 29, 2013, 05:48:55 PM »
I stand behind this guy. He's a friend of mine, and he didn't know that was a fake. As soon as I notified him of the problem, he ended the auction.

Mike,

If he is your friend I believe he just ended up suckered. I think this probably happens to others who don't examine the slabbed coins close enough. Tell him to check out this forum and maybe he'll learn a bit like we all do

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #153 on: January 29, 2013, 06:03:09 PM »
Mike,

If he is your friend I believe he just ended up suckered. I think this probably happens to others who don't examine the slabbed coins close enough. Tell him to check out this forum and maybe he'll learn a bit like we all do

Thank you, GDG.  I did tell him what to look out for.  He's just a small seller (but honest) who's trying to squeeze out a few nickels and dimes here and there. Unfortunately, this turns out to be a big loss for him.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #154 on: January 29, 2013, 06:10:00 PM »
Payment To:   Torri Wilson
Seller's ID:   atorriwilson
Seller's Email:   
craftbhxsaz@hotmail.com

Let me clarify .... that's the info of the fake seller who sold the fake 1989 1/4 oz NY EXPO gold coin to panda-moneya. (my friend's eBay seller ID)

Offline Silverfever

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #155 on: January 29, 2013, 06:15:35 PM »
Let me clarify .... that's the info of the fake seller who sold the fake 1989 1/4 oz NY EXPO gold coin to panda-moneya. (my friend's eBay seller ID)

dynamike51,
Aren't you panda-moneya?
BTW I have bought a lot from panda-moneya and I have to say that he is an excellent and reputable seller.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #156 on: January 29, 2013, 06:19:20 PM »
dynamike51,
Aren't you panda-moneya?
BTW I have bought a lot from panda-moneya and I have to say that he is an excellent and reputable seller.

Me, panda-moneya?!  My eBay ID is dynamike1951 (in California), panda-moneya is on East Coast.

Offline Silverfever

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #157 on: January 29, 2013, 06:31:59 PM »
Ok thanks. Just wondering.

Offline dynamike51

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Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #159 on: January 29, 2013, 08:25:37 PM »
Thank you, GDG.  I did tell him what to look out for.  He's just a small seller (but honest) who's trying to squeeze out a few nickels and dimes here and there. Unfortunately, this turns out to be a big loss for him.
As a small seller, it hard to make profit selling in eBay with all the fees.

Offline SANDAC

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Offline Micko102012

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #161 on: February 10, 2013, 05:31:08 PM »
Hi everyone

I got two of the fake coins off of eBay recently. How much do you think it would be worth or with the right buyer how much it would be worth and if I sold it back on eBay and state that it is fake with very low mintage  N16

« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 05:33:26 PM by Micko102012 »

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #162 on: February 10, 2013, 06:30:36 PM »
Welcome to the forum.

Please post better pictures to cover the whole holders. Do not take the pictures with angle. This will not give the 3 dimensional details. 

Offline Micko102012

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #163 on: February 10, 2013, 11:29:07 PM »
Bad Bears: Counterfeit Pandas
 
Counterfeit Alert!

1989 Gold New York Numismatic Convention medals
A wave of fake 1/4 oz. gold 1989 New York Numismatic Convention medals has appeared on the market. They are most easily distinguished from genuine medals by their rough texture in the frosted areas and the softness of the design details. Some are seen in NGC-type holders.

A photo of a genuine 1989 medal is posted below. Please note the smooth texture of the frosting. I will post a photo of a counterfeit as soon as it is available. Shun any medal that looks a little "Sparkly" and doesn’t have a creamy texture as in the photo below.

The three NGC numbers to avoid regarding 1989 1/4 oz NY Expo are:
2765913-015
2770113-003
2758069-003
lyubov3 managed to sell all three, repeatly

Many of known fakes with NGC slabs are marked as "DELETED" in NGC database.  Maybe this is NGC's way of informing people of potential fakes.  I have a growing list of DELETED (37 at this moment) as I delved into NGC database.  I guess I should talked to NGC first before I publish the full list.”

Bad Mazu replica

Someone mention the measurements:

Diameter, 21.8mm (should be 22mm)
thickness, 2.2mm
density, 8.9

And perform the density measurement by suspending the coin by a thin thread in water and measure the weight of displaced water.  Density is calculated by dividing dry weight (6.49g) by weight of displaced water (0.73g) =8.9.  Copper density at room temperature is 8.94 while gold is 19.3.  

Also someone sent it off for XRF measurement and below is the report.  Summary:

2.03% gold
0.186% zinc
91.53 copper
6.26% nickel

So it is definitely a gold-plated Mazu replica.”

« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 11:47:33 PM by Micko102012 »




Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #167 on: February 15, 2013, 01:27:50 AM »
All listings (3 x 1982 1/4 oz gold panda, 3 x 1989  NY Expo gold medal and 3 x  1987 Mazu gold medal)  by this seller are fake coin in a NGC fake holder.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/sox35yes/m.html?item=150995447458&pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item232807aea2&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

Reported all items and seller.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #168 on: February 15, 2013, 01:37:08 AM »
 Reported as well.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #169 on: February 15, 2013, 02:00:18 AM »
Also reported.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #170 on: February 15, 2013, 02:15:02 AM »
Ditto.

One item points to an alarming evolution.  2765913-008 is not a DELETED slab, so we can no longer just check the NGC numbers and find out whether a slab is fake or not.  The forgery has evolved, unfortunately.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-China-1-4-Oz-Panda-Pure-Gold-Coin-NGC-PF69-Chinese-Proof-Ultra-Cameo-999-/150995447458?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item232807aea2

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #171 on: February 15, 2013, 12:56:03 PM »
Ditto.

One item points to an alarming evolution.  2765913-008 is not a DELETED slab, so we can no longer just check the NGC numbers and find out whether a slab is fake or not.  The forgery has evolved, unfortunately.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-China-1-4-Oz-Panda-Pure-Gold-Coin-NGC-PF69-Chinese-Proof-Ultra-Cameo-999-/150995447458?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item232807aea2

Has either NCG or eBay responded to this outbreak?
Perhaps someone with contacts there should reach out?
Either NCG & eBay proactively respond and get on top of this or the entire market for legitimate numismatics is at risk IMO.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #172 on: February 15, 2013, 01:06:39 PM »
Has either NCG or eBay responded to this outbreak?
Perhaps someone with contacts there should reach out?
Either NCG & eBay proactively respond and get on top of this or the entire market for legitimate numismatics is at risk IMO.

It's imperative that NGC acts decisively and immediately. Counterfeiters are making fake holders using NGC label and certification number. eBay, most likely, could care less as long as they profit from the sales.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #173 on: February 15, 2013, 06:49:47 PM »
Hi everyone

I got two of the fake coins off of eBay recently. How much do you think it would be worth or with the right buyer how much it would be worth and if I sold it back on eBay and state that it is fake with very low mintage  N16



Are you ebay seller "pookie0918"?

Please explain your view on putting this fake up for auction this way? Would you instead divulge the source of the fakes, and report it to ebay and try to stop this fraudulent activity which threatens our hobby and investments?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-grade-fake1-4-oz-gold-1987-China-Mazu-PF69-ULTRA-CAMEO-NGC-type-holder-/251229747111?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3a7e75b7a7
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Micko102012

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #174 on: February 15, 2013, 09:41:06 PM »
Yes i'm pookie0918

I just added a remark in the description of the detail "Not to sell to a  person or someone as real but for education purpose."

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #175 on: February 15, 2013, 09:51:56 PM »
Yes i'm pookie0918

I just added a remark in the description of the detail "Not to sell to a  person or someone as real but for education purpose."

That "education" comes at a helluva cost ($215) - yeah, right !   N20 N21 N14  Most members here would think you're passing fakes to someone else and "reduce" your losses.

Offline Micko102012

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #176 on: February 15, 2013, 10:07:12 PM »
that is very true and I just want to see how much someone would be willing to pay for a good fake coin.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #177 on: February 15, 2013, 10:19:18 PM »
that is very true and I just want to see how much someone would be willing to pay for a good fake coin.

Just a friendly advice. Remove two fake coin listings immediately. You may have legal problem already, if NGC decides to take action.

It will be very helpful if you can let us know the source of those fake coins.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #178 on: February 15, 2013, 10:20:40 PM »
All listings (3 x 1982 1/4 oz gold panda, 3 x 1989  NY Expo gold medal and 3 x  1987 Mazu gold medal)  by this seller are fake coin in a NGC fake holder.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/sox35yes/m.html?item=150995447458&pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item232807aea2&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

Reported all items and seller.

All listings were removed.

Offline Micko102012

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #179 on: February 15, 2013, 10:31:21 PM »
Thanks for your concern but I 'm not going to remove it unless I have to or is force to.

Offline Micko102012

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #180 on: February 15, 2013, 10:33:56 PM »
and that is why I'm selling it on ebay lol for $215 lol

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #181 on: February 15, 2013, 10:36:20 PM »
Thanks for your concern but I 'm not going to remove it unless I have to or is force to.
I hope you'll reconsider.  You've obviously worked hard to have 100% feedback of 460.  $215 is nothing compare to have your reputation trashed.

Offline Micko102012

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #182 on: February 15, 2013, 10:42:03 PM »
I have considered but I needed to make money for my fake coins.

Offline Micko102012

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #183 on: February 15, 2013, 10:45:15 PM »
check out my other items I have posted for sales

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #184 on: February 15, 2013, 10:47:00 PM »
check out my other items I have posted for sales

NO ONE here reading your posts will buy anything from you - the power of CCF.

Offline Micko102012

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #185 on: February 15, 2013, 10:49:30 PM »
Well. At least I try.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #186 on: February 15, 2013, 10:51:11 PM »
Potential buyers are going to question what else is fake.  Not saying others are fake.  Just saying that reputation is very important.

A quote that I heard a while back along the line of

... I was so focus on this one perfect haircut.  I forgot the # 1 rule of barber shop ... repeat customer ...

Offline Micko102012

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #187 on: February 15, 2013, 10:58:43 PM »
I'm ok thanks for your advice.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #188 on: February 15, 2013, 11:20:01 PM »
Reported as trademark violation and no "copy" stamps on fake coin and fake NGC holder for both Micro102012's items.

Offline Straitssettlementshop

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #189 on: February 15, 2013, 11:27:10 PM »
I have considered but I needed to make money for my fake coins.

Your "face value" (as the Chinese term for reputation) is more important than money. You should take care of your face value once is damage is gone forever.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #190 on: February 16, 2013, 12:04:38 AM »
check out my other items I have posted for sales

The Morgan and Peace dollars listed  are also highly questionable.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Coins-US-/253/i.html?_ipg=25&_from=&_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ssn=pookie0918

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #191 on: February 16, 2013, 02:22:41 AM »
I sent the a printout of the ebay page to NGC.

Offline Micko102012

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #192 on: February 16, 2013, 05:33:14 AM »
How about I just get someone else to post it as 1/4 gold (Plated) china mazu - for education and capture the image closer so NGC holder can't be seen.

Anyway you guys are good at monitoring this kinda of thing and I appreciate the constructive criticism especially from poconopnn who is questioning my livelihood lol hobby :)

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #193 on: February 16, 2013, 11:19:58 AM »
To everyone, what options are available to help offset the loss?

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #194 on: February 16, 2013, 11:33:12 AM »
To everyone, what options are available to help offset the loss?

He should go back and deal with the seller he bought from, instead of trying to pass them off to someone else. Secondly, I suspect he already knew what he was getting (fakes) to begin with. He probably bought on the cheap with the sole intention to make a quick profit. (evidenced by the fact he listed a handful of them)  So, may I ask, why would (or should) anyone help an unscrupulous, flippant seller to "offset" his loss?

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger pookie0918
« Reply #195 on: February 16, 2013, 04:49:32 PM »
pookie0918, allegedly living in Cobourg, Canada needs to be run out of the business for knowingly passing counterfeit coins in counterfeit NGC slabs IMO.
Seller User Id: pookie0918, old user ID: pavaris123
Looks to be a person of Vietnamese descent or ties...

http://www.ebay.vn/nguoi-ban/pookie0918-0.html

pookie0918 MyWorld eBay:

http://myworld.ebay.com/pookie0918

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #196 on: February 16, 2013, 04:53:09 PM »
pookie0918, allegedly living in Cobourg, Canada needs to be run out of the business for knowingly passing counterfeit coins in counterfeit NGC slabs IMO.
Seller User Id: pookie0918, old user ID: pavaris123
Looks to be a person of Vietnamese descent or ties...

http://www.ebay.vn/nguoi-ban/pookie0918-0.html

pookie0918 MyWorld eBay:

http://myworld.ebay.com/pookie0918

+1

Dude has no shame.   

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #197 on: February 16, 2013, 06:53:02 PM »
Is he the one bringing all the fakes to ebay?......

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #198 on: February 18, 2013, 01:24:51 PM »
pookie0918, allegedly living in Cobourg, Canada needs to be run out of the business for knowingly passing counterfeit coins in counterfeit NGC slabs IMO.
Seller User Id: pookie0918, old user ID: pavaris123
Looks to be a person of Vietnamese descent or ties...

http://www.ebay.vn/nguoi-ban/pookie0918-0.html

pookie0918 MyWorld eBay:

http://myworld.ebay.com/pookie0918

"Thanks for reporting this listing to us.

I reviewed this listing and confirmed that it has been removed as a fake."

Congrats pookie0918, you are now on my watch list.
This is not a "good thing".  N26

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #199 on: February 18, 2013, 01:48:26 PM »
"Thanks for reporting this listing to us.

I reviewed this listing and confirmed that it has been removed as a fake."

Congrats pookie0918, you are now on my watch list.
This is not a "good thing".  N26


Let's buy NOTHING from pookie0918 - that'd be his ultimate punishment.    N26 N26

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #200 on: February 18, 2013, 02:52:24 PM »
I am not buying, I am "investigating".

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #201 on: February 18, 2013, 03:03:26 PM »
I am not buying, I am "investigating".

Please report any suspicious activity from this seller.    N39

Offline panda-moneya

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #202 on: February 20, 2013, 08:55:52 PM »
Hello
Here is another fake 1982 1/4 oz gold panda in an NGC holder
 Ebay seller (jcorlett81)gave the serial number 3188006-017
grade has been deleted by NGC

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem

 

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #203 on: February 21, 2013, 03:41:50 AM »
Hello
Here is another fake 1982 1/4 oz gold panda in an NGC holder
 Ebay seller (jcorlett81)gave the serial number 3188006-017
grade has been deleted by NGC

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem
Gone...


Offline Gilmore

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #205 on: February 26, 2013, 09:16:14 PM »
This is probably nothing new to most members, yet thought it that it would be helpful to those who are not familiar with the these fakes.

The genuine medal is on the left. There are so many design differences that it is hard to list them all. Here are a few.

The seller was notified.


Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #206 on: February 26, 2013, 09:39:54 PM »
 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: to Gilmore

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #207 on: February 26, 2013, 09:54:00 PM »
There are so many design differences that it is hard to list them all.

Easiest one to see: Fake has lines in the hair, real one no lines
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #208 on: February 26, 2013, 10:35:01 PM »
Another seller from Canada. The Morgan dollar is also fake. This is a new NGC cert. # (3356524-186) being copied and grade has not been deleted by NGC yet.

Reported.

The third Chinese character from left is also different. 

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #209 on: February 26, 2013, 10:40:30 PM »
Also reported to eBay and NGC as well.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #210 on: February 27, 2013, 11:20:53 AM »
Seller's response:

"go share your opinion with someone alse.everything in this coin is proparly right."

NGC's fraud department is onto this right now.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #211 on: February 27, 2013, 11:46:37 AM »
The response is mild in comparison to some I got.  Something to keep in mind is that we are exposing these criminals and some will do anything to protect their greed.

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #212 on: February 28, 2013, 04:48:26 AM »
Seller's response:

"go share your opinion with someone alse.everything in this coin is proparly right."

NGC's fraud department is onto this right now.

On it..
NGC will not delete this cert listing because they copied a good cert#?

Offline poconopenn

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Offline Gilmore

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #214 on: March 08, 2013, 12:26:39 AM »
Another fake, not in NGC slab but PCCB - 1989 1/4 oz panda NY Expo

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-1-4-oz-china-gold-coin-unicorn-RARE-panda-NY-Expo-5000-mintage-/121077903810?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1c30ce31c2&ssPageName=RSS:B:SHOP:US:101


As Hippanda said in the past these medals housed in these PCCB slabs should raise suspicion.

For the new members, here is a a genuine medal next to the fake above. The left medal is genuine. The easiest way to distinguish between the two - the thickness and shape of the text and numbers, the ears, nose and eyes of the panda. The details are very muted in the fake medal.

Reported.

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #215 on: March 08, 2013, 02:03:09 AM »
Another fake, not in NGC slab but PCCB - 1989 1/4 oz panda NY Expo

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-1-4-oz-china-gold-coin-unicorn-RARE-panda-NY-Expo-5000-mintage-/121077903810?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1c30ce31c2&ssPageName=RSS:B:SHOP:US:101


As Hippanda said in the past these medals housed in these PCCB slabs should raise suspicion.

For the new members, here is a a genuine medal next to the fake above. The left medal is genuine. The easiest way to distinguish between the two - the thickness and shape of the text and numbers, the ears, nose and eyes of the panda. The details are very muted in the fake medal.

Reported.
And... it's gone! ;-)
I believe posting clear information that helps identify these fakes is instrumental in the speed in which they are pulled.
Thank you for helping to educating us all.
 N48

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #216 on: March 08, 2013, 02:37:23 AM »
And... it's gone! ;-)

That one was very fast :-)

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #217 on: March 08, 2013, 12:22:56 PM »
I didn't see your time stamp, someone beat us to that one.

Offline Gilmore

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Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #219 on: March 11, 2013, 09:07:18 AM »

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #220 on: March 12, 2013, 12:34:33 AM »
And here it is again. The seller re-listed the medal:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-1-4-oz-china-gold-coin-unicorn-RARE-panda-NY-Expo-5000-mintage-/121079667693?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1c30e91bed&ssPageName=RSS:B:SHOP:US:101

Reported.

The auction ended before eBay removed it. Sold for $465. I feel sorry for the buyer. 

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #221 on: March 12, 2013, 12:45:29 AM »
Unfortunately, in Ebay's quest to further protect their bottom-line, they disguise the winning bidders' (and other bidders') full identity in the closed bid list of auctions. Prior to that change, I had, on many occasions, contacted the winning bidder to inform them of their FAKE purchase. They were then able to not pay and notify the seller of their FAKE coin and, if necessary, file with Ebay. In this case, regarding the change on Ebay, greater protection for Ebay = lesser protection for buyers. However, Ebay will claim that the reason for the change was to protect members from being solicited and possibly purchasing FAKES. The truth is, Ebay protects Ebay!!!!!

Offline 从心出发

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #222 on: March 12, 2013, 02:04:51 AM »
Unfortunately, in Ebay's quest to further protect their bottom-line, they disguise the winning bidders' (and other bidders') full identity in the closed bid list of auctions. Prior to that change, I had, on many occasions, contacted the winning bidder to inform them of their FAKE purchase. They were then able to not pay and notify the seller of their FAKE coin and, if necessary, file with Ebay. In this case, regarding the change on Ebay, greater protection for Ebay = lesser protection for buyers. However, Ebay will claim that the reason for the change was to protect members from being solicited and possibly purchasing FAKES. The truth is, Ebay protects Ebay!!!!!

The workaround is, register a new account, with fake details. Place bid, if you win, refuse to pay and report to ebay. If you didn't win, you will see the winner id and inform the winner.

Ethical or not, that is another question.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #223 on: March 12, 2013, 10:48:17 AM »
Unfortunately, in Ebay's quest to further protect their bottom-line, they disguise the winning bidders' (and other bidders') full identity in the closed bid list of auctions. Prior to that change, I had, on many occasions, contacted the winning bidder to inform them of their FAKE purchase. They were then able to not pay and notify the seller of their FAKE coin and, if necessary, file with Ebay. In this case, regarding the change on Ebay, greater protection for Ebay = lesser protection for buyers. However, Ebay will claim that the reason for the change was to protect members from being solicited and possibly purchasing FAKES. The truth is, Ebay protects Ebay!!!!!
Unfortunately, in the past when you did contacted the buyer, eBay sometime came back with a warning to you that "...you are interfering with a sell...".

All these reporting and removing are just cosmetic.  eBay is a company and with any company, profit is the bottom line; not saying it is wrong or right.  Just it is.  Fake or not, eBay get their shares of the money between the buyer and seller.

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Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #225 on: June 16, 2013, 10:50:01 PM »
Yes, this is a fake coin in a fake NGC holder. Grade was deleted at NGC website.

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=2765913-015


Offline tongo888

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #227 on: June 17, 2013, 08:47:44 AM »
Fake or not ebay don't care.ebay just want your money

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #228 on: June 17, 2013, 08:52:57 AM »
Wow!!! Even the MCM has the fake coin too. LOL

How do u know this is a fake

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #229 on: June 17, 2013, 08:54:16 AM »
sorry last post for panda88 :)

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #230 on: June 17, 2013, 10:51:03 AM »
How do u know this is a fake

As pointed out one page back by Gilmore with more detail than I give here.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6858.msg48656#msg48656
Look at the nose, eyes and ears.

Offline dkhalsa

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #231 on: June 17, 2013, 02:25:12 PM »
I also own the same 1982 1/4oz  3104262-019
Wonder how many have been sited with the same serial numbers?
What's a counterfeiters minimum order worth?
Mine hit the market in Early 2012
Fake alert embedded in the NGC barcode that if not present, wouldn't upload to Ebay???
NSA could get on it.
Graders need to, up the anty a notch to protect their brand and our wallets.
Rant

Offline moderncoinmart

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #232 on: June 17, 2013, 04:59:55 PM »
Hey guys,

I appreciate the heads-up from everyone through email & eBay messages regarding this coin. We're currently investigating this and will take appropriate action.

Thank you,

Hayden

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #233 on: June 17, 2013, 06:14:52 PM »

Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #234 on: June 17, 2013, 06:48:29 PM »
Hey guys,

I appreciate the heads-up from everyone through email & eBay messages regarding this coin. We're currently investigating this and will take appropriate action.

Thank you,

Hayden

Thank you for your swift actions!  N31

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #235 on: June 18, 2013, 10:43:39 AM »
As a follow-up, the coin is being sent to NGC for examination and the person we bought it from, who we know to be extremely reputable, has been contacted as well.

Thanks again!

Hayden

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #236 on: December 28, 2013, 09:10:11 PM »
Ebay 221339557202  Longevity medal in Chinese slab?   Good seller and member.  Is this a new Chinese grading company or a obvious fake?.......

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #237 on: December 28, 2013, 11:07:47 PM »
Ebay 221339557202  Longevity medal in Chinese slab?   Good seller and member.  Is this a new Chinese grading company or a obvious fake?.......

NPGS is a Beijing-based grading company. Their coins are showing up around China. The last time I checked their price to grade and slab it was around 15 RMB per coin ($2.50 USD). I couldn't determine if the company guarantees either grade or authenticity. IME, so far, the coins trade at a discount to coins of the same grade from an established grading company. Perhaps someone can fill in more details about the company.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #238 on: December 28, 2013, 11:15:34 PM »
Ebay 221339557202  Longevity medal in Chinese slab?   Good seller and member.  Is this a new Chinese grading company or a obvious fake?.......
Look an awful like NGC holder.

Offline comeaux

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #239 on: June 01, 2014, 12:33:36 AM »
As a follow-up, the coin is being sent to NGC for examination and the person we bought it from, who we know to be extremely reputable, has been contacted as well.

Thanks again!

Hayden

Hello Hayden,

What was determined when this fake coin was sent to NGC for examination? Also what was the source of the fake coin and how did it come into the possession of the extremely reputable dealer?

To other CCF members … I have not seen many postings lately of these fake NGC holders/coins, are they still very prevalent in the market?

If anyone has good photos of an authentic NGC slab next to fake NGC slab it would be good to see it as all of the posted links in this thread have no photos remaining. Preferably not photos from NGC site as they lack color.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #241 on: June 10, 2014, 04:40:00 AM »
Photos are not clear, but it appears to be FAKE.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #242 on: June 10, 2014, 05:47:35 AM »
no cert # in pictures is a red flag ,I sent the sellar this message no reply yet:Can you supply the NGC cert # many of these are fakes in fake NGC slabs? regards joe

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #243 on: June 10, 2014, 06:04:39 AM »
no cert # in pictures is a red flag ,I sent the sellar this message no reply yet:Can you supply the NGC cert # many of these are fakes in fake NGC slabs? regards joe
2758069-003

- osenergy

He reply me this ngc code.
Note the 6 O'Clock location. The bend direction is different from the real coin.



Offline jc888888888

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #244 on: June 10, 2014, 06:09:12 AM »
when you look up the cert # under the heading of Grade: it states contact customer service ,this is the flag for a fake coin yes?

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #245 on: June 10, 2014, 06:26:13 AM »
when you look up the cert # under the heading of Grade: it states contact customer service ,this is the flag for a fake coin yes?

"osenergy" reply my message with this ngc code. It seems fake.

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #246 on: June 10, 2014, 09:55:42 AM »
Is this fake?

Offline trozau

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #247 on: June 10, 2014, 10:21:53 AM »
It does look suspicious.  :sneaky2:
trozau (troy ounce gold)
honi soit qui mal y pense

gold - the barbarous relic!

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #248 on: June 10, 2014, 04:01:06 PM »

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #249 on: June 10, 2014, 04:04:45 PM »
Is this fake?


This 1990 1/10 oz gold panda is genuine. It is just optical illusion with a lighting from different direction.

Offline comeaux

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #250 on: June 10, 2014, 08:01:15 PM »
when you look up the cert # under the heading of Grade: it states contact customer service ,this is the flag for a fake coin yes?

Hey Joe … I believe this is the case as all of the fake slabs that I have seen are listed like this on the NGC site to "contact customer service"

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #251 on: June 10, 2014, 09:04:02 PM »
This 1990 1/10 oz gold panda is genuine. It is just optical illusion with a lighting from different direction.

Thank you~

Offline purzel

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #252 on: June 19, 2014, 05:45:13 AM »

From this known Chinese Fake Seller:

darknyrix87

http://www.ebay.de/itm/China-1914-YuanShiKai-NGC-AU58-/191215736658

http://www.ebay.de/itm/191214111069#ht_280wt_1170


I believe the pictures are from Heritage Auctions.

Offline cnpanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #253 on: June 24, 2014, 07:09:39 AM »
Quick Reply


Offline NBM

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #255 on: November 27, 2014, 06:08:18 AM »
2766603-001 has been sold 2 times by this seller?
Nov 20, 2014, 331378743747
Oct 21, 2014, 331346735648
I did not look at the others...

The question that comes to mind is why does it seem like NGC is most often counterfeited, I don't see this with PCGS.
Is it me or is it NGC?

Offline Birdman

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #256 on: December 22, 2014, 09:09:46 AM »
Fake NGC #3356524-208 has appeared again in ebay 201247329558.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/201247329558?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D201247329558%26_rdc%3D1  I reported it.  It looks like it is not the only fake listed by this seller.  Since he's using the 3 day auction, perhaps he's aware that they are not real?  Stay vigilant and report the slabbed fakes.

I like this method to check the NGC numbers.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6441.msg60359#msg60359

3356524-208 has been discussed before

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6858.msg46759#msg46759

Offline geoxxx

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #257 on: December 22, 2014, 09:29:36 AM »
Is there any way to detect a fake NGC slab just by looking at it?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #258 on: December 24, 2014, 12:10:25 AM »

Offline Birdman

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #259 on: December 28, 2014, 04:39:25 PM »
Fake NGC #3356524-208 has appeared again in ebay 201247329558.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/201247329558?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D201247329558%26_rdc%3D1  I reported it.  It looks like it is not the only fake listed by this seller.  Since he's using the 3 day auction, perhaps he's aware that they are not real?  Stay vigilant and report the slabbed fakes.

I like this method to check the NGC numbers.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6441.msg60359#msg60359

3356524-208 has been discussed before

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6858.msg46759#msg46759


Although I reported this mazu slab to both NGC and ebay, the listing is still up (relisted)?  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gold-1-4-Coin-Mazu-Goddess-Very-Very-Rare-/201251447905? 

I saw the NGC 3356524-007 slab of concern listed by this seller sold.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gold-1-4-Coin-Guan-Yu-Very-Rare-/201249257427?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2edb63f7d3&nma=true&si=IG8K7PD8%252B19z4yWln%252BVpVlE0S3Q%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

I messaged ebay seller soldiermickey, and I mentioned that this an NGC slab certification number of concern.  He messaged back saying "My uncle collected these coins years ago and he's not doing so well so I'm selling them to help pay for some of his bills. He said he got it when it first came out but sent it later to be graded and insists it is real seeing as how he bought it from an authentic dealer."

I see that there were over 470 coins associated with the original NGC 3356524 submission, which I can only assume is from a big time dealer, so I don't think I buy this guy's story that his uncle bought it and later submitted it.

Am I missing something here?






Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #260 on: December 28, 2014, 07:47:01 PM »

Am I missing something here?


The only thing you may be missing, is maybe you think you re missing something?

Clear cut case of counterfeit, fraud and lies.

Happens a lot with these 1/4 oz medals (and the 1982 1/4 oz gold panda, by the way, for newcomers).
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #261 on: December 28, 2014, 09:04:17 PM »
I saw the NGC 3356524-007 slab of concern listed by this seller sold.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gold-1-4-Coin-Guan-Yu-Very-Rare-/201249257427?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2edb63f7d3&nma=true&si=IG8K7PD8%252B19z4yWln%252BVpVlE0S3Q%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


This 1989 Guan Yu 1/4 oz. gold medal (Cert.# 3356624-007)  is a new fake. NGC has not aware of it yet. Pictures of this fake medal in fake NGC holder are attached for future reference.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #262 on: December 28, 2014, 09:59:00 PM »
I don't know why there are so many fakes in 3356524-xxx.  I have not look at that number since I collected the data 2 years ago and I scanned the first 30 entries just now and I find 9 new "CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE" entries: 3356524-005, -006, -007, -008, -012, -013, -014, -016, -021.  The bar code of this fake is correct.  The 1/4oz gold is problematic.  The forger obviously have a good supply of the NGC 1/4oz gold holders to make many of them.  I do know the Mazu replicate is slightly smaller than the real one, so it will rattle in the 1/4oz holder.

Yea, the poor-health-need-to-sell-for-medicine story is a pretty familiar one.  The 3356522-3356530 were large dealer submissions in 2011, so his story is definitely not true.

Offline dynamike51

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Offline jc888888888

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #264 on: June 29, 2015, 06:45:52 PM »
IT SURE IS A FAKE look at NGC cert verification it alerts you to contact NGC customer service

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #265 on: June 29, 2015, 06:49:44 PM »
i contacted the seller

Offline dynamike51

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Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #267 on: July 15, 2015, 06:39:49 AM »
i contacted the seller
What did he say?
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #268 on: July 15, 2015, 06:55:46 AM »
he pulled the listing once he called NGC

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #269 on: July 15, 2015, 09:22:31 AM »
he pulled the listing once he called NGC

OK. Thanks.
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That lion is also after you!

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #270 on: July 15, 2015, 12:52:31 PM »
2766603-001 has been sold 2 times by this seller?
Nov 20, 2014, 331378743747
Oct 21, 2014, 331346735648
I did not look at the others...

The question that comes to mind is why does it seem like NGC is most often counterfeited, I don't see this with PCGS.
Is it me or is it NGC?

Probably similar answer as to why there are so many Windows PC viruses compared to Apple IOS devices!
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline poconopenn

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Offline dynamike51

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #272 on: July 15, 2015, 01:45:40 PM »
IMO, it is genuine. The box is not original and no COA.

Thank you, poconopenn.   N31   N31