Author Topic: Fake NGC slab danger  (Read 109334 times)

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Offline Hippanda

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Fake NGC slab danger
« on: November 14, 2012, 12:52:18 PM »
Here's a fake NGC slab which is very difficult to detect from the real one, which is copied almost perfectly.
It would escape detection if the enclosed medal were slightly better and didnt have one or two obvious and well-known characteristics of fakes.  Meaning: if counterfeiters get only a bit more careful and better at faking, there can be a real problem ahead with authenticating even graded coins and medals.
This fake has been reported and may be yanked.  Others of this same 1987 fake Mazu have appeared in recent days, reported, and yanked. If it is yanked I will post photos later.  Note the lines in the hair of the fake, and other small differences like the 9 in the date already discussed.

The fake:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-CHINA-GOLD-1-4-OZ-25-MAZU-NGC-PF-68-ULTRA-CAMEO-/281023187883?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item416e498bab

The real:
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3356524-158
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Silverfever

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2012, 03:17:37 PM »

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2012, 03:38:58 PM »
The coin is definitely different from the one on ngc but is the slab different maybe he got the slab open and changed the coin

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2012, 03:46:20 PM »
Silver fever your coin seems to match those of ngc so it's most likely real

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2012, 03:51:40 PM »
There are many frosting variations, so you should compare your coin carefully to the NGC photo.  They should look EXACTLY the same.  I looked at the photos of the link you provided and compare to NGC photo.  There are reasons to be concerned.  The thickness of ears, shape of eye, shapes of tree trunk openings.  They seem to be different.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 03:59:04 PM »
I just bought a Slabbed Panda from this guy. Now you got me worried if its a fake.
Any experts out there?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-CHINA-SILVER-PANDA-10-YUAN-NGC-PF-69-ULTRA-CAMEO-/281017357175?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&nma=true&si=AIGKVG0FMh34pENMYg4CD2piABU%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

IMO, Your coin is genuine.

The pictures of all listings by this seller were taken with a angle. It hard to know if the slab is fake or genuine. The 1987 Mazu gold coin is definitely a fake. Pictures copied from this listing are attached in the next post for future reference.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 04:03:54 PM »
Picutres of fake 1987 1/4 oz gold Mazu coin.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 04:09:24 PM »
The coin is definitely different from the one on ngc but is the slab different maybe he got the slab open and changed the coin

The Mazu: Different slab, coin was NOT broken out. That is the whole point, it is a fake slab/fake label that is so close to a real one that it would likely pass detection if the fake coin wasnt so obvious.  In fact, the fake label is 99% close to perfect.  I would invite anyone to flip between the fake, and the actual NGC site, to try and tell the difference.  Then, please do NOT post it.  If it is that easy for them to learn, they will change it and there will be no way to gurantee telling the differnce for a while for this new fake slab.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Silverfever

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 04:22:13 PM »
Thank you everyone for your input. I am a newbie and I thought I would just buy graded coins to avoid the fakes, now this thing comes up...

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 04:35:17 PM »
Thank you everyone for your input. I am a newbie and I thought I would just buy graded coins to avoid the fakes, now this thing comes up...

Yes, and that is why these new near perfect fake slabs are so troubling.
I wonder why this seller is taking photos at an angle-  it does
make it more difficult to compare the labels closely.

Alarms also go off looking at this sellers feedback of supposed buyers.
There are some listed there, that are known to be
Highly suspect.

This could be the tip of something really scary.
It'll take time to post all the connections, and some of the fake pictures in fake listings have been removed by eBay so are no longer available.
Stay tuned for developing details.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 04:42:03 PM »
People on eBay selling coins need to put pics of the hologram on the front and back cause surely that can't be faked right

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 04:52:25 PM »
People on eBay selling coins need to put pics of the hologram on the front and back cause surely that can't be faked right

Sorry, they are faking the holograms quite well too unfortunately.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2012, 04:57:13 PM »
IMO, Your coin is genuine.

Poconopenn- could you kindly blow up and examine closely the claws on the upper paw, and the
line of the arm touching panda's chin, in addition to photos posted by SANDAC?
Do you think these differences can be explained by angle of photo?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline exchange

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2012, 05:54:26 PM »
Considering the accuracy of the slab, could maybe an insider at NGC have provided the forgers with blank slabs to be used on the black market?


exchange
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 05:56:27 PM by exchange »

Offline Birdman

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Re: Fake NGC slab danger
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2012, 06:42:09 PM »
Considering the accuracy of the slab, could maybe an insider at NGC have provided the forgers with blank slabs to be used on the black market?

exchange

That would be a question NGC would be interested in.  Has someone forwarded this listing to someone at NGC, so they can take a closer look at the slab?

Thank you everyone for your input. I am a newbie and I thought I would just buy graded coins to avoid the fakes, now this thing comes up...

One way to reduce anxiety associated with buying expensive China coins would be to purchase from reputable dealers, who submit dozens/hundreds of coins to the grading companies each month.  There is little risk of getting a fake slab if you purchase the coin directly from the person that submitted the coin to the grading company.  There are several dealers that I would feel very comfortable buying Chinese coins from.

Another option is to purchase directly from major auction houses.  Experts handled the coins/slabs and cataloged them.  Then the coins are listed in full view online for a month or more and examined carefully in person by many potential buyers.  I would think any fakes would be flagged early in the process and would no longer be available on the day of the bidding.