Author Topic: 1997 Khan  (Read 9387 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PandaOrLunar

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1182
  • Karma: 30
1997 Khan
« on: October 27, 2012, 10:16:15 PM »
Look like one is froster than the other?  The characters (date, denomination, ...) are fatter also?

Offline coinstat

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Karma: 4
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2012, 06:59:45 AM »
The second photo looks like http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5340.0. Did you take to first one yourself? It may be a matter of light conditions and file compression. Could you please provide more photos?

I raised some similar questions on another coin, so far without results.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5340.msg38886#msg38886

Offline PandaOrLunar

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1182
  • Karma: 30
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2012, 12:59:25 PM »
I'm doing a bit of research to learn more about the 1997 Khan.  If I recalled, the 2nd picture is from the CC.  I do not recalled where I got the 1st from.

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2265
  • Karma: 118
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2012, 01:21:59 PM »
I used the word "vanishing features" to describe fading features on the Historical Figures thread.  See
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25369#msg25369
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25370#msg25370
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg26205#msg26205

There are many examples of other vanishing features in the thread.

In the ensuing discussion, we generally agreed that vanishing features is considered a minor variation.  I believe it is a very common phenomena in MCC.  Personally I think it is interesting and worthy of collecting, but my enthusiam is not widely shared

Offline PandaOrLunar

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1182
  • Karma: 30
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2012, 06:41:09 PM »
What are the going market value and mintage of the 1997 Khan with and without parenthesis?

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2265
  • Karma: 118
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2012, 06:52:28 PM »
A recent sale of 1997 Khan (OMP) without parenthesis didn't get any bid at $200, but sold quickly with BIN at $150.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Yuan-China-1997-Ghengis-Khan-Silver-Rare-/321013231689?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item4abde13049

I don't remember a recent sale of Khan with parenthesis, but expect 10-15x greater price.

Offline fwang2450

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1040
  • Karma: 172
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2012, 07:35:43 PM »
What are the going market value and mintage of the 1997 Khan with and without parenthesis?
At the Dongfang Auction (epama) in Shanghai on Sept 15, the Traditional Culture series 1-2 which included Khan with parentheses sold for RMB64,000 (raw coins). The selling point was just this coin. The auction house said there were around 20 specimens of this variety. But a month later, a PF68 Traditional Culture series 2 set which also had Khan with parentheses only sold for RMB17600 at zhao online. After checking sales records on Chinese sites in the past years, it seems that there are more than 20 specimens of this variety.

Offline fwang2450

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1040
  • Karma: 172
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2012, 07:39:10 PM »
A recent sale of 1997 Khan (OMP) without parenthesis didn't get any bid at $200, but sold quickly with BIN at $150.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Yuan-China-1997-Ghengis-Khan-Silver-Rare-/321013231689?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item4abde13049
I bought a raw coin for $152 a month ago, with no parentheses. I would guess raw coins of this variety would be priced between $150-$200.

Offline fwang2450

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1040
  • Karma: 172
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2012, 07:43:21 PM »
What are the going market value and mintage of the 1997 Khan with and without parenthesis?
There is a PF69 set with parentheses on sale on eBay right now:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121008175654?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
If I am not wrong, the seller is Gilmore?

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2265
  • Karma: 118
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2012, 08:30:50 PM »
There is a PF69 set with parentheses on sale on eBay right now:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121008175654?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
If I am not wrong, the seller is Gilmore?
That's a pretty decent price.  All PF69, hmmm.  I'm sorely tempted...

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2265
  • Karma: 118
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2012, 08:36:48 PM »
I also know two 1997 Khan with parenthesis sold in the spring of this year in Germany.  The whole 5-coin set was sold for $653 BIN, TWICE.  I missed them both times.  They were gone in minutes!

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5340.msg32867#msg32867

Offline PandaOrLunar

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1182
  • Karma: 30
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2012, 10:13:27 PM »
Mr Ge lists mintage at 2,700.  What is the mintage for the with and without parenthesis?

Offline dc55232

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Karma: 25
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2012, 03:24:23 AM »
Sales overview "Parenthesis variety". Copied from here:

http://www.goldseiten-forum.de/index.php?page=Thread&postID=774485#post774485

Sales (incl. buyer's premium, without VAT):

- 2,530 EUR (in the complete set, so 5 x 1 oz), 2011-09, auction Germany
- 7,600 EUR / 63,860 RMB (in the complete set + complete set 1995, 10 x 1 oz), 2011-09, auction China
- 874 EUR (together with 1 ounce I & D 1994), 2011-09, eBay Germany
- 5,000 EUR / 41,715 RMB (in the complete set, so 5 x 1 oz), 2011-11, auction China
- 1,350 EUR (alone), 2011-11, fixed price sale Germany
- 4,300 EUR / 36,565 RMB (in the complete set, so 5 x 1 oz), 2011-12, auction China
- 3,400 EUR / 28,840 RMB (in the complete set, so 5 x 1 oz), 2011-12, auction China
- 2,100 EUR / 17,716 RMB (in the complete set, so 5 x 1 oz), 2011-12, auction China
- 1725 EUR (in the complete set, so 5 x 1 oz), 2012-02, auction Germany
- 3,100 EUR / 25,750 RMB (alone), 2012-03, auction China
- 2,050 EUR / 16,892 RMB (alone), 2012-04, auction China
- 1725 EUR (in the complete set, so 5 x 1 oz), 2012-04, auction Germany
- 1,270 EUR / 10,506 RMB (alone), 2012-04, auction China
- 1,525 EUR (alone), 2012-04, eBay Germany
- 1,344 EUR (alone), 2012-06, eBay Germany
- 1,210 EUR (alone), 2012-06, eBay Germany
- 6xx EUR (alone), 2012 -?, EBay Germany, with scratches
- 890 EUR / 7,210 RMB (alone), 2012-07, auction China
- 1,900 EUR / 15,450 RMB (alone), 2012-07, Chinese auction, NGC PF69 Ultra Cameo
- 1,650 EUR / 13,390 RMB (alone), 2012-08, Chinese auction, NGC PF68 Ultra Cameo
- 2,150 EUR / 17,510 RMB (alone), 2012-08, Chinese auction, NGC PF69 Ultra Cameo
- 1,450 EUR (alone), 2012-09, eBay Germany
- 2,200 EUR / 17,922 RMB (in the complete set, so 5 x 1 oz), 2012-10, Chinese auction, NGC PF68 Ultra Cameo
- 1,770 EUR / 14,008 RMB (alone), 2012-10, auction China
- 1221 EUR (alone), 2012-11, eBay Germany
- 3,440 EUR / 27,295 RMB (in the complete set, so 5 x 1 oz), 2012-11, Chinese auction, NGC PF69 Ultra Cameo ("Parenthesis")
- 2,350 EUR / 18,746 RMB (alone), 2012-11, Chinese auction, NGC PF69 Ultra Cameo

dc55232

Offline dc55232

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Karma: 25
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2012, 05:23:40 AM »
By the way: why don't we create some sort of "variety corner" where we document all known varieties and categorize them? We could link to the already existing threads if someone needs more detailed information / pictures. It would be great to have such a portal ...

dc55232


Offline dc55232

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Karma: 25
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2013, 02:51:14 PM »
I just finalized my analysis of the NGC graded 1997 Khan silver specimens:

I have 192 certification numbers in my data base.

I had to discard 3 of them because they were either without images or tagged as deleted (one of them with label Parentheses).

Of the remaining 189

169 are of the "No Parentheses" variety

20 are of the "Parentheses" variety (with the following grades: 12 x PF69, 6 x PF68, and 2 x PF67)

Regards
dc55232

Offline dc55232

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Karma: 25
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2013, 03:41:57 PM »
Now the same for the 1/10 Oz Gold Khan ...

I have 25 certification numbers in my data base.

I had to discard 1 of them because of no images.

Of the remaining 24

21 are of the "Parentheses" variety

3 are of the "No Parentheses" variety (with the following grades: 2 x PF69, 1 x PROOF Details Damaged)


Regards
dc55232

Offline wg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
  • Karma: 66
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2014, 11:58:52 PM »

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2265
  • Karma: 118

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2014, 12:27:54 PM »
One sold at either the winter or spring 2013 Hosane auction for 12000 yuan.  I forgot which one.  So this price is about right

Offline PandaOrLunar

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1182
  • Karma: 30
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2014, 01:46:21 PM »
Has someone already answered why this major of difference of one having and one not having the parenthesis around the date?  Is one produced by one mint and the other by another mint?

Offline wg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
  • Karma: 66
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2014, 05:10:45 AM »
One sold at either the winter or spring 2013 Hosane auction for 12000 yuan.  I forgot which one.  So this price is about right


http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-2420282-detail.shtml

Offline PandaOrLunar

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1182
  • Karma: 30
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2014, 11:06:56 AM »

http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-2420282-detail.shtml


Is frosting take into considering when grading?  I notice many areas the frost is missing/faded.  Or is this another example of depending on what the grader has for breakfast.

Offline Gilmore

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 554
  • Karma: 36
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2014, 08:00:19 PM »
Is frosting take into considering when grading?  I notice many areas the frost is missing/faded.  Or is this another example of depending on what the grader has for breakfast.

I believe not. It is not the first Khan I see in high grade that has these blemishes on the frosted areas. Mine returned as a 69 with few of these blemishes, not as many though.

Offline dc55232

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Karma: 25
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2014, 06:55:40 AM »
NGC Update for the 1997 Khan 10 Yuan Gold version:

36 graded specimens analyzed

1 variety unknown because no image (1 x PF69)
6 "No Parentheses" (4 x PF69, 1 x PF70, 1 x Proof Details Damaged)
29 "Parentheses" (25 x PF69, 3 x PF70, 1 x Proof Details Edge Damage)

36 represents 6% of the actual mintage estimate of about 600 (Ge Zukang states 590 and Huang Ruiyong 594).

With 6 of 35 being about 17% I "guestimate" the "No Parentheses" variety in the 100 to 150 mintage range.

Any opinion is appreciated!

Updates for Khan Silver and 1994 I&D Comets will follow soon.

Regards
dc55232  
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 07:39:55 AM by dc55232 »

Offline dc55232

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Karma: 25
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2014, 07:59:13 AM »
NGC Update for the 1997 Khan 5 Yuan Silver version:

272 graded specimens analyzed

1 variety unknown because no image
1 "Parentheses" with no image but label "1997 CHINA GENGHIS KHAN PARENTHESES - SERIES II" (so unverified)
36 "Parentheses" (thereof 10 with label "1997 CHINA GENGHIS KHAN SERIES II")
234 "No Parentheses" (thereof 112 with label "1997 CHINA GENGHIS KHAN SERIES II")

272 represents 10% of the actual mintage estimate of about 2700 (Ge Zukang).

With 37 of 271 being about 14% and 10 out of 122 being about 8% I "guesstimate" the "Parentheses" variety in the 200 to 400 mintage range.

2 "Parentheses" had a "1997 CHINA GENGHIS KHAN NO PARENTHESES-SERIES II" label  :001_rolleyes:

Any opinion is appreciated!

Regards
dc55232
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 08:32:40 AM by dc55232 »

Offline dennisma77

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
  • Karma: 3
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2014, 02:01:25 PM »
is it s special variarity.

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2254
  • Karma: 37
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2017, 12:35:15 PM »
Ebay 252747672391     1997 S5Y Genghis Kahn silver w/ parentheses   -bid-.......

Offline jwa1inv

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
  • Karma: 21
  • Gender: Male
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2017, 05:04:34 PM »
Bought that one on EBay and am anxiously awaiting
its return from Sarasota as a NGC PF 69 Ultra Cameo.

Offline jwa1inv

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
  • Karma: 21
  • Gender: Male
Re: 1997 Khan
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2017, 06:20:45 PM »
Posted the pictures of 1997 Genghis Khan parentheses PF 69 UC in
the Gallery.