Author Topic: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)  (Read 36860 times)

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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2013, 11:07:19 PM »
My new discovery which I would like to share with everyone is about copper variety of Hall & Holtz bread tokens.

As you know there are 2 token made in copper: One Loaf and One Small Loaf.

On the obverse of each close to word: ESTAB there is smaller letter "D".

When we take a look on ONE LOAF there is a dot below letter "D".
But when we will take a look on ONE SMALL LOAF there is a line below letter "D".

I am wondering why...?
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2013, 10:12:21 AM »
According to the newspaper: "The Colonies and India" from 22nd May 1897, page 17.
Mr. W. H. Short, manager of Hall & Holtz (Limited), died in Shanghai the other day, aged 54.

Link:
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/35686296/

He was listed in:
The Chronicle & Directory for China, Japan & The Philippines, for the year 1872 as a storekeeper.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2013, 10:46:00 AM »
In the article "The Coins of Shanghai" by A. M. Tracey Woodward, during an interview with Mr. Frulkner (general manager of Hall & Holtz in 1934) mentioned that there were old books which were destroyed in a fire some years ago...

Does those some years ago mean exact date 17th February 1914 or year 1915??
If in one of those years: 1914 or 1915 those books burned, in which there could be some detail information about copper-nickel variety Hall & Holtz bread tokens, then why previous manager Mr. Barraclough on 29th January 1929 didn't mention about the fire during the interview with Woodward?

Maybe there was another fire between 1929 to 1933 in Hall & Holtz company...

The Straits Times-5 March 1914-Page 9:
http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19140305-1.2.64.aspx

The Straits Times-29 April 1924-Page 3:
http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19240429.2.8.aspx
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2013, 11:30:24 AM »

Speaking about Hall & Holtz it is worth to mention László Hudec, who was an active figure in years 1918-1945 in Shanghai.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Hudec
http://thatsmags.com/shanghai/articles/12315
http://www.hudec.cn/

He designed such of buildings in Shanghai as: Normandie Apartment - 1924, Moore Memorial Church - 1931, Park Hotel Shanghai - 1934 or others (see photos in attachment).

But to the point. I found László Hudec Collection of letters and invoices from Hall & Holtz from 1924 to 1925:

http://contentdm.library.uvic.ca/cdm/search/searchterm/Hall%20&%20Holtz/field/all/mode/all/conn/and/order/nosort/page/1

Thanks to his collection those important documents survived till now and say something about Hall & Holtz company (please take a look on sample of one such of invoice from Hall & Holtz from June 1924 to Hudec).

On page 1 of this post. There are 2 pictures: Hall & Holtz company-A and Hall & Holtz company-B.
Actually, those are 2 different buildings. B one is main headquarters of Hall and Holtz in 1897 (probably 22nd June 1897-full date). On page 2 of this post on picture "D" it is mentioned that it was on Nanking Road 14 (take a look on original photo in attachment).

Now take a look on page 1 of this post, picture: Hall & Holtz company-A. This is former Hall & Holtz building from 1906. It was rebuilt I believe because it looks different now (picture: Second Hall & Holtz building on Nanking Road 114).
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2013, 05:05:52 AM »
I found very interested information about Hall & Holtz which I would like to share with you guys...

According to: "Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of China 1908" - edited by Arnold Wright, page number: 646, 648 and 651:

The business was started in 1848 by Mr. Hall, who was joined in 1854 by Mr. Holtz.
On 1 September 1883 company converted in to Hall & Holtz Co-operative Company (registered on 28th February 1886 under the Hongkong Ordinances
Hall & Holtz Co-operative Company liquidation in 1893, and reconstructed in Hall & Holtz Ltd.


It means that they opened business in 1848 but only Holtz was in Shanghai. 1854 is a date when Hall jointed him. The establishment date is also mentioned on copper bread tokens (ONE LOAF and ONE SMALL LOAF) - 1848.

However on one of invouce to László Hudec (famous Shanghai architect), the establishment date is 1843.
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2013, 05:14:12 AM »
In "Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of China 1908" - edited by Arnold Wright. page number 430:

...it is mentioned about 2 fires which took a place in Hall & Holtz:

1) 26th November 1898,
2) 11th February 1904

However, in "The Straits Times" newspaper from 5th March 1914, Page 9:
"Shanghai Fire Appliances" - article title, is mentioned that the fire was on 17th February 1904:
http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19140305-1.2.64.aspx
So when was the second fire? On 11th or 17th Ferbruary? Which source is telling a truth?
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2013, 05:22:01 AM »
As you know or probably don't know. In Shanghai there was 4 "Old department stores":
1) Hall & Holtz,
2) Lane Crawford,
3) Whiteaway Laidlaw,
4) Weeks & Company.

There were all British and all foreigners were doing shopping there.

Then..."The Big Four Companies":
1) Wing On,
2) Sincere,
3) The Sun Sun,
4) The Sun

...established stores later in Shanghai and were dealing with Chinese customers. If I am not wrong Wing On company was the first one, which opened department store in Shanghai in 1917.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2013, 05:29:07 AM »
Speaking about employees working for Hall & Holtz I would like to mention a few which I discovered today.

One of them in Atanasio Taitano Perez, employed as a clerk by Hall and Holtz & Co, Hong Kong. Which means that Hall & Holtz has some representative office in HK. Perez was born in 1874 and in 1890 was working for the other company. The exactly date when he was working for Hall & Holtz is not mentioned but probably it was a short period of time.

link:
http://snowranch.zxq.net/tata.htm
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2013, 05:41:13 AM »
In the directory chronicle for China and Japan from 1894, page 124, I found a list of employees working for Hall & Holtz in Shanghai:

1) Allen, J.W., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
2) Bowness, S., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
3) Bryan, J.S., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
4) Byrne, E., manager, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
5) Carion, B., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
6) Carion, F.F., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
7) Cook, E., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
8) Colgan, E.J., assistant Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2013, 05:42:49 AM »
9) Deighton, J., assistant Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
10) Donaldson, C., assistant Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
11) Hayward, W., secretary, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
12) Jaques, A.H., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
13) Manning, H.C., tailor, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
14) Rangel, I.M., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
15) Remedios, S.B.dos, assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
16) Short, W.H., manager, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2013, 05:43:25 AM »
17) Tuck, Ed., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
18) Vine, W.J., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
19) Quick, J.C., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2013, 05:59:07 AM »
Hall & Holtz was a retailer of such of good like this black fur felt top hat (photos: 1a, 1b and 1c):

http://www.rpvintage.com/main.asp?menu=viewItem&itemID=10MHA-399&gender=Mens&era=Accessories

The company was also a publisher or such of postcards like this Palace Hotel postcard from Shanghai:

http://www.stamps-auction.com/china-old-chinese-postcard-shanghai-statue-palace-hotel-for-sale-62449
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2013, 06:22:53 AM »
Remember when I posted list of employees working for Hall & Holtz in 1904 on page 2 and 3 of this post. Well, it seems that some employees were working there for 10 years since 1894:
Allen, I.W. (not sure is this is the same one because the one from 1894 has different middle name: Allen, J.W.)
Bowness, S. - the same one (1894 and 1904 listed)
Quick, Jno.C. (also I am not sure is it the same one, in 1894 is Quick, J.C.)
Rangel, I.M. - the same one (1894 and 1904 listed)
Remedios, S.B.dos - the same one (1894 and 1904 listed)
Tuck, E. - it could be the same person (in 1894 is listed Tuck, Ed.)
Vine, W.J. - - the same one (1894 and 1904 listed)
So at least 4 employees here were working loyally for Hall & Holtz from 1894 to 1904 (for 10 years).
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2013, 06:37:08 AM »
On page 3 of this post I posted that Hall & Holtz had branches also in Japan: Yokohama, Nagasaki and Kobe. George Gray was the person who established those branches. In Kobe the business was opened in 1871 but ceased temporarily.
In Nagasaki Hall & Holtz opened branch in 1863. In 1867 was working there J.A.Stewart, BUT I found information that he and his wife came to Japan in 1874, which means he could work there in 1867, unless he was there alone before...

- Mr. and Mrs. J. A. Stewart came to Japan in 1874 and got employed with W.Watson, Yokohama # 82. In 1875 this firm went bankrupt and it was taken over by Hall & Holtz, General Drapers, Yokohama Branch, Yokohama # 82, the headquarter was located in Shanghai. Both continued to work for this company in Yokohama until 1876.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2013, 07:53:37 AM »
It seems that one discovery accumulates other discovery :w00t:

It turned up that 2 employees working for Hall & Holtz in 1894 were working for the company 22 years,

1) Short, W. H.,
2) Skeels, H. J.,

In 1872 were both in Hall & Holtz. Short was a storekeeper and Skeels was a storekeeper. When time went by (in 1894), Short got a promotion to manager of the company and Skeels moved back to London but he was still working for Hall & Holtz.
KONDi
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