Author Topic: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)  (Read 32318 times)

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Offline dragondollar

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2013, 08:26:53 AM »
Oh, I had missed your previous update. Your #4 token is indeed second to #1, but it looks pretty nice. Solid XF with old toning.

Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2013, 08:30:10 AM »
I know dragondollar---I still love it:)
KONDi
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2013, 08:33:03 AM »
Dragondollar,

What do you think about my piece here...I think is also nr 2. I also have the one whch I have for sale here T19:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8454.0
But I think this one "my piece" is in a better condition. Those tokens are VERY HARD to find!

Dear all,

I purchased today ONE LOAF old Shanghai bread token from 1895 with round hole issued by Hall & Holtz Ltd. The condition is not so good but it is very rare token. Please pay attention that the hole is round not square one and there is no "N" counterstamp. I think my piece is in VG-F condition (nr 2) and if we will compare it with the other similar token which I found on some auction house---I think this one is in VG condition (nr 1). My token won't win with this "gold medalist^_^" but can it win silver medal at least? Let's PK N13
Dragondollar once again I would like to ask you to be a judge :001_tongue:

And the second place is for...
KONDi
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2013, 11:34:30 AM »
Dear all,

I got a while ago some very interesting information from a respectable collector: Mr Smith. This information is about which bread tokens are in a possession of the HK & Shanghai Bank collection. Here is the list:

H. Evans
1) 4 loaves in brass  with the griffin design
2) 1 loaf in brass
3) 1 loaf in zinc
4) 1/2 loaf in zinc with square center hole

Hall & Holtz
1) 1 loaf brass with round hole; long inscription on both sides (Chinese / English)
They don't have the 1/2 loaf with long inscription.
2) 1 loaf white metal with round hole; short inscription type (6 Chin. characters on back)
3) 1/2 loaf white metal with round hole; short inscription type
4) 1/2 loaf white metal, square hole, with  N  counterstamp below hole
5) 1/2 loaf brass, no hole. There is a space for a round hole on the Chinese side, but it was not punched out.
6) 1/2 loaf brass, no hole. Same as previous, but a little larger.
7) 1/2 loaf brass, no hole. Woman's portrait obverse; reverse same as previous types (6 Chinese characters) with space for round center hole, but it was not punched out.

This is very interesting information. I would like to special thanks to Mr Smith.
This is all for development of numismatic world and to inspire new collectors in the future^_^
KONDi
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2013, 04:43:53 AM »
Dear all,

I would like to share very interesting information.

Recently I found on American Numismatic Society website:
http://numismatics.org/collection/1924.210.1
http://numismatics.org/collection/1999.34.25

According to them ONE SMALL LOAF was issued by Birmingham mint (Heaton's Mint):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Mint
...started producing tokens and coins in 1850 as a private enterprise, separate from, but in cooperation with the Royal Mint.which confirms my private researches.

However the part where I do not agree with American Numismatic Society is that this copper bread token was used between 1952-1989 in Guangdong province. If this token and also his bigger brother ONE LOAF were used between 1952 to 1989 then those tokens would be very common. Also why should they use Shanghai token in Guangdong province, where legen in Chinese even mention the name of the street where the company was located.

Later issued Hall & Holtz token:

Obverse Legend: HALL and HOLTZ LTD ONE LOAF SHANGHAI
Reverse Legend: fu li ko mien pao (Chinese legend)
The Material is not NI (nickel) bur CU-NI (copper-nickel) of those tokens: HALF LOAF and ONE LOAF.
Another mistake is in Mint: Shanghai. It was not made in Shanghai by local mint only by Birmingham mint (Heaton's Mint) and shiped to Shanghai.
Locality: Jiangsu, which is wrong! It was used in city of Shanghai only.
Finally the date when it was issued was probably 1895, not Date: 1900-1925. In the year 1925 the new owner repunched these tokens with square hole and put "N" counterstamp to distinguish them from old issued ones with round holes.
KONDi
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2013, 04:27:02 AM »
Dear old Shanghai token collectors and coin dealers,

I have interesting discovery!

During my visit in British Museum (virtual visit, but still I went through many website)
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3190504&partId=1&searchText=China&object=19802&page=1

I found the picture of copper variety of 7th Hall & Holtz bread token variety which owns also except the British Museum also HSBC in Hong Kong.

This piece is very rare. However it is not made of brass is listed here:

7) 1/2 loaf brass, no hole. Woman's portrait obverse; reverse same as previous types (6 Chinese characters) with space for round center hole, but it was not punched out.

It is made of copper.

This piece can solve one of the mystery of Hall & Holtz bread tokens. What I mean by this mystery. Well I mean the date when Half loaf and One loaf (metal: CuNi) were issued. If I will be able to discover it and I have some trace then it will be huge discovery, since all the books were burned in a fire, according to the interview which Woodward did in 1934 with general manager of Hall & Holtz.

Well let's see what I can find out...

By the way, this piece belongs to the British Museum and it was acquired by the museum in 1979. I was trying to get some detail information from the person from who the museum acquired this piece but the person can't record anything about it since it was long time ago (1979).
KONDi
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2013, 10:48:41 AM »
Dear old Shanghai token fellow collectors and coin dealers,

Yesterday evening (Shanghai time) was a glorious day for numismatic world.

Together with Dr Gary Oddie from the Token Corresponding Society:
http://www.tokensociety.org.uk/
and Mrs Helen Wang from The British Museum:
http://thebritishmuseum.academia.edu/HelenWang
we discovered missing link between Hall & Holtz bread tokens (metal: CuNi) and the mint which issued these tokens.

Till yesterday I suspected ONLY that Hall & Holtz bread tokens were minted by Heaton Mint/Birmingham Mint, since similar token: The Shanghai Ice, Cold Storage & Refrigeration Co. Ltd were issued by this mint.

But today I can say it with 100% of confidence that Hall & Holtz bread tokens made of copper-nickel were issued by Heaton Mint.

I discovered that there is an inscription below the bust of a woman.

That was Dr Gary Oddie who confirmed that this fuzzy sign is "HEATON".

With Mrs Helen Wang from the British Museum who found the token with "similar" appearance. This piece has on one side: Ralph Heaton & Sons Coiners Head of Libertad right:

http://noble.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=82440
My conclusion is that the portrait of the woman on this piece is 100% indentical!
On the copper variety with Woman's portrait obverse and reverse same as previous types (6 Chinese characters) with space for round center hole, but it was not punched out we can see clearly that the size of die with woman's portrait was smaller because there is still some space between a rim and teeth. I would say 2,5-3mm. According to what British Museum wrote about this piece:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3190504&partId=1&searchText=China&object=19802&page=1
It has 28 millimetres in diameter. On Ralph Heaton & Sons Coiners Head of Libertad right it says that it has only 25 millimeters in diameter.
The distance the bottom of bust to the inner teeth is exactly the same on the BM piece as on the piece which was sold by Noble Numismatics PTY LTD:
http://noble.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=82440
The features on the woman's portrait are also the same.

Since the piece sold by Noble Numismatics PTY LTD had the inscription "Ralph Heaton & Sons..." it means that both pieces were issued during Ralph Heaton III period in Heaton mint. Ralph Heaton III joined to partnership in 1853:
http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/themes/2023/heaton-sons-mint-birmingham-england
http://www.coinwiki.co.uk/index.php?title=The_Heaton_Mint
On 22nd of March 1889 the name "Ralph Heaton & Sons" was changed to "The Mint Birmingham Limited".

That means that Hall & Holtz bread tokens were issued by "Ralph Heaton & Sons" between 1853 to 1889.

Pridmore in his book on page 324 claims that Hall & Holtz bread tokens were issued between 1895 to 1900.

I say it would be less likely that Hall & Holtz bread tokens were issued after 1899 because after 1899 the name of the mint changed and below the portrait wouldn't be name "Heaton".Unfortunately I think it is very hard to find out the date of issue of those bread tokens but it could be between 1894 to 1899 since Mr. E. Barraclough who was the manager in 1929 during the interview with Woodward told him that these tokens had been procured from England 30 to 35 years ago:
year 1929 - 30 years = year: 1899
year 1929 - 35 years = year: 1894

The portrait of the woman is known as "Head of Libertad". Heaton mint issued for example in 1858 for Venezuela similar Head of Libertad on their coins:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1858-Heaton-Venezuela-Centavo-Libertad-Incuse-NG-XF45-BN-183-/330935722507?nma=true&si=WurA%252B7vWFHcokyrEVbxfdRWukVA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

The truth in which year Hall & Holtz bread tokens were exactly issued is lying in The Birmingham City Archives. Unfortunately The Birmingham City Archives are closed until September.

I would like to send special thanks to Dr Oddie and Mrs Wang---that was a nice team work, isn't it?:)
KONDi
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2013, 03:56:09 AM »
Dear all,

I got an answer from Noble Numismatics PTY LTD.
The piece which they sold:
http://noble.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=82440
was an advertising token issued about 1880.

This piece has identical woman's portrait and identical world "HEATON" below a bust.

I assume that Hall & Holtz bread tokens: One loaf and Half loaf made of copper-nickel were issued by Heaton Mint during 1880-1889. The date: 22nd March 1889 was the date when the company name was changed from Heaton and Sons to The Mint Birmingham Limited. So they wouldn't mark their tokens or coins as "H" letter or "Heaton" I believe.

That means that Mr. Barraclough who was the manager in 1929 during the interview with Woodward was wrong telling him that these tokens had been procured from England 30 to 35 years ago:
year 1929 - 30 years = year: 1899
year 1929 - 35 years = year: 1894

I could non of those 2 dates: 1899 or 1894. This copper pattern is a proof that those Hall & Holtz bread tokens (CuNi) were issued by Heaton Mint between 1880 to 1889. I hope I will be able to get to The Birmingham City Archives to discover the exactly date.

Exciting? Isn't it?
KONDi
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2013, 02:32:16 AM »
Here is another company which issued also bread token.
The name of the company was "Dah daw & Co. They issued One loaf and I believe also Half loaf in Hankow city.
Very interested piece. The reverse is 90-degree rotated.
KONDi
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2013, 12:59:52 AM »
The Chronicle & Directory for China, Japan & The Philippines, for the year 1872

List of Hall & Holtz Ltd. staff from 1872:
1) Cowderoy, W., (Hall & Holtz) assistant, Shanghai (photos A2)
2) Dyer, H., (Hall & Holtz) storekeeper, Shanghai (photos A3)
3) Everall, H., (Hall & Holtz) storekeeper, Shanghai (photo A4)
4) Knight, H., (Hall & Holtz) storekeeper, Shanghai (photo A6)
5) Short, W. H., (Hall & Holtz) storekeeper, Shanghai (photo A8)
6) Skeels, H. J., (Hall & Holtz) clerk, Shanghai (photo A9)
7) Symons, H., (Hall & Holtz) clerk, Shanghai (photo A10)
8) Valentine, B. A., (Hall & Holtz) clerk, Shanghai (photo A1)

The others are not related with Hall & Holtz company but they belong to other companies which are also interested.

Like Evans, H., (H.Evans & Co.) probably the owner of H.Evans & Co.
Gabriel, J., (H.Evans & Co.) assistant in H.Evans & Co.

So when we will compare H.Evans & Co. to Hall & Holtz, we can easily notice that H.Evans & Co. was a small bakery in Shanghai on that time and Hall & Holtz was already big company with 8 employees who worked in Hall & Holtz in 1872.

When we will compare with the list of Hall & Holtz Ltd. staff from 1904 to the one from 1872. We see that there are 29 employees in 1904, which means that company was keep growing and even explored other cities in China: Hankow and Tientsin.

Enjoy as always:)
KONDi
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Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2013, 01:05:18 AM »
Gabriel, J., (H.Evans & Co.) assistant in H.Evans & Co. (photo A5)

There is also another company called: "Mustard & Co." and I believe it was Mustard, R. W., who was a general store keeper in Shanghai in 1872 was also the owner. However I could be wrong about this (photo A7). Mustard & Co. issued 2 tokens about 1890: Good for 30 cash (metal: CuNi) and Good for 50 cash (metal: brass).
KONDi
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Offline dragondollar

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2013, 01:54:57 PM »
Excellent work of investigation! It seems you are becoming a master in the study of Chinese tokens. I think you should publish your findings in a more structured format so everyone can refer to it easily later.

Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2013, 09:35:11 PM »
Thank you dragondollar. I think "master" is little too big word, but "token lover" I guess it's me:).
I focus mainly on Shanghai tokens right now. Maybe in a future I will move into some other group from different region of China. I will see...Thank you for your advince I will try to follow it when I will describe another token.
The problem with finding information about Shanghai tokens is that, main books like Pridmore, Smith and Woodward contain or too less information about each token (Pridmore, Smith) or not enough information (Woodward). Chinese literature has another problem. The information are erroneous (Shanghai Tokens, 1991) or there are too less information (The Chips and coupons in old Shanghai, 2005). Also Chinese books contain illustrations of tokens which are American tokens. It would be great if someone will publish a new book about Shanghai tokens.
KONDi
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2013, 04:55:17 AM »
Dear token lovers from Shanghai :001_smile:

You are probably thinking when NGC and PCGS will start grade Shanghai tokens.

I don't have any information from PCGS but NGC already started grade Shanghai token.

Here is an example of Half Loaf Hall & Holtz bread token graded by NGC as: NGC Token AU Details--Counterstamped

The counterstamped pieces are rare ones! This has number: 3391 above "half loaf"

All Shanghai bus tokens (1924, 1926 and 1939 issue) can also be send to NGC to be graded:
World Transportation Tokens, as listed in Smith & Smith references
http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDarticle=2550

I see that Shanghai tokens are new area, like undiscovered numismatic world yet for NGC and PCGS.
KONDi
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Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2013, 05:21:00 AM »
Forgot to mention that NGC grades all Shanghai tokens which are listed in Pridmore book.
KONDi
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