Author Topic: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)  (Read 31651 times)

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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2013, 03:34:59 AM »
the rest employees (4)...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2013, 03:37:14 AM »
Regarding to this what I said here:

I was also able to find in this article what happened with Hall & Holtz Ltd. before the communist take over the country (in attachment). I think it is article: "Department stores in early 20th century Shanghai embeddness of clan structure in the business environment" but Brenda Sternquist and Yan Ma from Michigan State University p.342-343 (picture: "H and H Ltd_1" and "H and H Ltd_2").
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2013, 09:36:21 AM »
Dear all,

The more I am able to find about this Hall & Holtz Ltd. company the more exciting it becomes :001_rolleyes:

I found something more...

In this article:
"Promoting the Foreign: Advertising of Department Stores in Republican Shanghai" by Ling-ling Lien, Institute of Modern History, Academia Sinica, p.3-4, 8-9. I found out that Hall & Holtz went transformation from a small bakery to department store.
Most of sources of information which I found say that 1843 is the year of founding. The company put also attention on advertisements and in 1929 (green color on picture 9a) the numbers of H & H Ltd. advertisements was the highest in the history of the company.

So far I wasn't able to find (it is very hard N8) information when the Hall & Holtz Ltd. closed their store and moved from Shanghai to Hongkong to registered there in 1946, but according to:
"Revisiting the psychic distance paradox: international retailing in China in the long run 1840-2005" by Andrew Godley and Haiming Hang, School of Management Henley Business School University of Reading UK, p. 13 and 18.
...on page 18, there is a sentence that "the Big Four survived Japanese invasion and war, with Wing On the last one to close its store in mainland in 1956". This means that Hall & Holtz Ltd. still existed as a company in Shanghai at least till 1945. That's my conclusion.

There is a book which only mention H & H Ltd.:
Shanghai - A Handbook For Travellers And Residents by Rev. C.E. Darwent (xvii)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2013, 09:44:56 AM »
To don't confuse anyone collector of Hall & Holtz Ltd. tokens and say that all those information which I am giving you here are sucked from a finger. I would like to attach 2 PDF documents, where I found those information.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2013, 10:09:32 AM »
Finally on the end of this day I would like to give you one more information.
I believe that you all noticed that Hall & Holtz Ltd. was founded in 1843.
However I found in one article:
"Factors related to the rise of large scale merchandising in the third world: The case of the department store" by Saleh Malaikah, Michigan State University, p.399, 407 and 409.
that Hall & Holtz Ltd. was the first department store opened in 1841 (p.399, I don't know what "Ho 1933" means). Later the same author of this article on the page 407 says that H & H Ltd. was the oldest department store in Shanghai incorporated in 1842. So I got really confused with those 3 dates: 1841, 1842 and 1843 N14
My assumptions:
Hall & Holtz Ltd. started business unofficially in 1841 in Shanghai. In 1842 the company was registered in Hongkong (which says page 409). With the date 1842 and their registration in Hongkong I have another question: Why they have to register in 1946 in Hongkong once again since they were registered in 1842?

This is a mystery company with beautiful designed tokens. The company let's just say exist from 1843 and stop exist in 1996 (153 years on a market, with a lot of transformation and places where it was located)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2013, 08:05:29 AM »
Dear all,

A small update about Hall & Holtz Ltd.

I found this small information:
http://www.vcea.net/Digital_Library/Images_en.php?ID=352

I also found this advertisment in newspaper by H & H Ltd.
http://epaper.idoican.com.cn/zlxb/html/1961-01/01/content_1877076.htm?div=-1

But I am little bit confused, because the date is 1961.01.01
On that time the company were located in Hongkong, not in Shanghai anymore.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2013, 10:11:16 AM »
This page is from this book:
Catalogue of World Transportation Tokens and Passes Except North America Smith, Kenneth E.

1)Hu & Sun - Shanghai Tokens; Extensive text (Chinese), plus 170 tokens illustrated, rarity guide.  107p+31pl, sc, 1991

2)The Chips and Coupons in Old Shanghai; Mainly color plates of coupons and metallic tokens including brothel coins, gambling, amusement, bar, liquor, restauranat, bread & transportation in 30 chapters by type. Shanghai was China's foreign enclave, thus many items have western script. Gorgeous phoography complemented by old photos of shops and street scenes. Chinese text with English chapter headings.   279p, 8.5x11.5", hc, 2005

3)Smith, Kenneth & Kirk Catalogue of World Transportation Tokens (Etc.); Series of books in various editions, worldwide coverage (except USA). Not many Asia / Africa listings, though China, Egypt, India, Israel, Iran, Pakistan, Philippines, South Africa, and Turkey are represented.   (Original 1967 work covering all categories $20). Please take a look from a page which is about old Shanghai bus tokens.

I found this all here and just wanted to share with you guys:
http://www.coincoin.com/bkZZ.htm

If you will have those 3 books/catalogs, then it will help you to collect Old Shanghai tokens:)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2013, 09:58:55 AM »
According to one of knowledgeable and experienced collector, which I know and corresponding with Hall & Holtz was originally chartered in Hong Kong, even though they operated in Shanghai (and later in other cities). However it needs deeper examination. This was a common business practice for British companies. For example, the China General Omnibus Company, though it operated in Shanghai, was chartered in Hong Kong. In any event, it appears that after the war, they may have rechartered the company in Hong Kong in 1946. This was simply shrewd business practice. By 1946 it was clear that China was politically unstable. It was unclear at that point who would win the civil war which everyone knew was coming. Chartering the company outside China would give it some protection from both the Kuomintang and the communists.
Here is some information about James Neil (who put countermark "N" on those Hall & Holtz Ltd. tokens in 1925.
He was in the bakery business before he bought Hall & Holtz bakery. He operated in Shanghai under the names James Neil & Company and James Neil Scotch Bakery as early as 1917. He still used these names after 1924, which suggests that he purchased H & H but continued to operate it under the original name -- perhaps with a special contract to supply the Hall & Holtz department stores. Neil's Scotch Bakery had three locations in Shanghai in 1925. The company was originally a wholesale biscuit baker, but by the 1910's they operated cafes which sold pastry and tea.

I would like to special thank to Mr Smith N40 for his input in my researches and those above information N3.

I also was able to find those information here:

http://www.btmbeijing.com/contents/en/business/2008-06/timehonouredbrand/yiliabrand

"In 1906, a Scottish businessman, James Neil, came to Shanghai. He set up a stall near the Hall & Holtz Corporation, also a British company, to sell home-made western pastries and bread, which were welcomed by the westerners in the Shanghai International Settlement. Hall & Holtz discovered the talented Neil and employed him to manage its food department. Years later, the entrepreneurial Neil left Hall & Holtz and opened his own company named James Neil & Company Limited, with YILI as its Chinese name, meaning “righteousness comes first and then the benefit,” a concept of Confucianism. Since their inception, Yili’s bread, pastries, biscuit and chocolate have been popular. In 1939, Neil died, and his son inherited the company and continued it until the outbreak of the War of Resistance Against Japanese Aggression. The company was then transferred to a Jewish man named "Vick" (transliteration). But not long after, the Japanese army invaded Shanghai, arrested the new owner and took over James Neil & Company Limited. In 1945, Vick got out jail but was frustrated by the damage to the company. In 1946, he sold the company to a group of Chinese businessmen. Ni Jiaxi became the executive board chairman and the James Neil & Company Limited was changed into Yili Food Company. But the operation of the Yili Food Company was not so smooth. First came the civil war; many foreigners then fled China. A shrinking market and competition from companies with access to foreign capital put the Yili Food Company into a tough situation. Then, in 1950, the Yili Food Company was invited to move to Beijing, where it became a State-owned company."
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2013, 10:42:28 AM »
Dear all Hall & Holtz company's fans,

I am writting again to update information which I found. I don't know where to start...it is so interesting and exciting:)

Let's start from here. I found on this web page
http://www.mildchina.com/shanghai-attractions/shanghai-nanjing-road.html
some information about the History of Nanjing Rd. Hall & Holtz is mentioned. Modern Shanghai didn't forgot the oldest western company:)

Now the key points of this update.

I would out that George Gray was a clerk working for H & H. He established a branch in Nagasaki/Japan in 1863 and in Kobe/Japan in 1871. I found his signed domcument in his own name and for the compamy. Please check photos and here is a link where I found it:

http://www.meiji-portraits.de/meiji_portraits_g.html#20090527093316843_1_2_3_22_1

Finally as a last one update info. I found over here:

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/authentic-original-pith-helmet-hat-312940319

"...and that it was "Specially made for Hall & Holtz Ltd, Shanghai" and it is a classic white pith helmet in design."

That this is original Pith Helmet Hat. On a picture "H & H Ltd" we can see someone who is standing with I think it is similar hat in front of Hall & Holtz Ltd. store. Also on a postcard, photo "H & H Shanghai" we can see someone in a red jacket with white hat standing in front of Hall & Holtz store. Could it be Royal Navy Guard in both cases? I think so...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2013, 08:17:12 AM »
Dear all,

There is a possibility---only possibility tha Hall & Holtz Ltd. copper-nickel Half Loaf and One Loaf manufactured by at the Heaton mint, Birmingham. This is only my speculation. It comes from this link which I found:
http://ns1.holidays.net/store/China---Shanghai-Hall-%26-Holtz,-Ltd-10Lbs-Merchant-Token-SCARCE-AU_330840676603.html
On this link we can see old Shanghai token from Shanghai Ice, Cold Storage & Refrigeration Co and is for 10 pounds of Ice. It has similar design to Hall & Holtz Ltd. copper-nickel tokens. The fast is that H & H Ltd. copper-nickel bread tokens were made in England. Where exactly? and by which mint? we can only speculate...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2013, 10:58:28 AM »
Dear all,

I went by tracks of old Shanghai today to find the building of former Hall & Holtz Ltd. company from old Shanghai and I found it.
The building is on Nanjing Road 114, where now are some other stores. But is is great feeling to see this building there. It is like back in time :001_rolleyes:
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2013, 11:41:29 AM »
Dear all,

I purchased today ONE LOAF old Shanghai bread token from 1895 with round hole issued by Hall & Holtz Ltd. The condition is not so good but it is very rare token. Please pay attention that the hole is round not square one and there is no "N" counterstamp. I think my piece is in VG-F condition (nr 2) and if we will compare it with the other similar token which I found on some auction house---I think this one is in VG condition (nr 1). My token won't win with this "gold medalist^_^" but can it win silver medal at least? Let's PK N13
Dragondollar once again I would like to ask you to be a judge :001_tongue:

And the second place is for...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2013, 11:44:42 AM »
According to that what I found out. Only 4 copper Hall & Holtz bread tokens came up on auction for sell (nr 1, nr 2 and nr 3 which is ONE LOAF and ONE SMALL LOAF). Nr 4 is my new purchase. I think this the condition is VF-XF (very 漂亮) :thumbup:

Let's PK N13
Which one do you like?
NR 1    NR 2    NR 3   OR  my NR 4
I think the winner is nr 1---it is the most beautiful. But I think if you compare ONE LOAF from NR 3 and NR 2 with my NR 4, you might agree with me that my piece will get second place N12

dragondollar what do you think?
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2013, 12:00:59 PM »
This is a picture from a book about old Shanghai postcards---my Hall & Holtz Ltd. company :001_wub:
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2013, 03:40:26 AM »
Dear all,

I have some new information about my favorite old Shanghai tokens: Hall & Holtz Co., Ltd.

This is a selling record in auction houses of those tokens:

Ponterio & Associates
December 2010 Hong Kong Sale (2010.12.03)
CHINA. Shanghai Hall & Holtz, Ltd.. Copper-Nickel Half Loaf Merchant Token, ND.
Pridmore-330. Square hole in center, countermark "N".

Ponterio & Associates
August 2011 Hong Kong Auction (22.08.2011)
CHINA. Shanghai. Copper-Nickel One Loaf Merchant Token, ND (ca. 1925).
Prid-328. Hall & Holtz Ltd. Square hole in center, countermark "N".

Ponterio & Associates
August 2011 Hong Kong Auction (22.08.2011)
CHINA. Shanghai. Copper-Nickel Half Loaf Merchant Token, ND (ca. 1900-25).
Prid-329. Hall & Holtz Ltd. Round hole in center.

Ponterio & Associates
August 2011 Hong Kong Auction (22.08.2011)
CHINA. Shanghai. Copper Half Loaf Merchant Token, CD (ca. 1900-25).
cf.Prid-329. Hall & Holtz Ltd. Flip over double strike, without center hole punched out.

Ponterio & Associates
August 2011 Hong Kong Auction (22.08.2011)
CHINA. Shanghai. Copper One Loaf Merchant Token, ND (ca. 1895-1900).
Prid-326. Hall & Holtz Bread & Biscuit Bakers. Round hole in center.

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd
Hong Kong Coin Auction 40 (01.09.2005)
Hall & Holtz Ltd. : Copper-nickel Token for half-loaf and Copper-nickel Token for one-loaf

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd
Hong Kong Coin Auction 46 (02.04.2009)
CHINESE COINS. Tokens: Goats Head nickel Token, used as 5 cent coin, c.1900, Hall and Holtz Ltd, Shanghai, Nickel One Loaf Token, round hole, another, square hole, 1925-1926 (Pridmore 327, 328),...

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd
Hong Kong Coin Auction 40 (01.09.2005)
Hall & Holtz Ltd. : Copper Tokens for one small loaf and one loaf...

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd
Auction 59-60 (05.05.2009)
Coins Of The British Empire. Shanghai. Nickel Token, pre 1925, obv HALL AND HOLTZ Ltd. ONE LOAF SHANGHAI

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd
Auction 59-60 (05.05.2009)
Coins Of The British Empire. Shanghai. Copper ?-Loaf Token, pre 1925, details as preceding lot, but has been struck in copper with obverse and reverse struck over both sides

Noble Numismatics PTY LTD
Sale 93   13–16 Apr 2010   Hotel InterContinental   Sydney
CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, General Storekeepers, Established 1848, bread token, one small loaf, copper (26mm) with central hole (not in Pridmore, similar design Pr.326).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, General Storekeepers, Established 1848, bread token, one loaf, copper (31mm), central hole, issued 1895-1900 (Pr.326).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, bread token, nickel (33.5mm), one loaf, with central circular hole (Pr.327).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, bread token, nickel (33.5mm), one loaf, circular central hole has been punched square and an incuse letter "N" stamped below (Pr.328).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, bread token, nickel (33.5mm), one loaf, with square hole but incuse "N" above (similar to Pr.328).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, bread token, copper (27.5mm), half loaf, no central hole, (not listed in Pridmore, similar Pr.329).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall & Holtz, bread token, nickel (27.5mm), half loaf, square central hole and incuse "N" stamped below (Pr.330).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, bread token, nickel (27.5mm), half loaf, square central hole and incuse "N" above. (not listed by Pridmore, similar to Pr.330).

As you can see the first selling record of those tokens appeared in 2005 and the last one is from 2011. Those are extremely rare stuff! :thumbup:
KONDi
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