Author Topic: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)  (Read 40825 times)

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Offline KONDi

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The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« on: October 21, 2012, 11:30:49 PM »
Dear coin collectors and coin dealers,

Today I would like to introduce you a short history of old Shanghai bread token. I did some research about the most famous bread token in the world.

In general, everything we know about Shanghai tokens comes from the article "The Coins of Shanghai" by A. M. Tracey Woodward, published in the China Journal for August 1937 (shortly before his death), and reprinted that same year in the Bulletin of the Numismatic Society of China.

Hall & Holtz bread tokens:

The company began business in Shanghai in the mid 1800's (September 1855), was founded by Edward Hall and Andrew Holtz. Woodward interviewed workers at the Hall & Holtz company, which was still in business in the 1930's, and one of them told him in 1929 that the original tokens were made in England about 30 to 35 years earlier -- sometime in the 1890's (between 1899 to 1894) with a round hole in the center. Most collectors belive that these tokens were made around 1895.

In 1925 the business was sold to a Mr. J. Neil, so the counterstamp was put on beginning in 1925. To distinguish the old tokens from those issued under his authority, the round hole was repunched into a square hole and the letter "N" (for Neil) was stamped on them. So all the tokens were made around 1895, but those with a square hole and letter "N" were used in the 1920's and 1930's.

There is another type of Hall & Holtz token, which comes in values of one loaf (about 31mm) and one small loaf (26mm) with round centerhole and apparently in copper (or brass). These have on one side a long inscription in English, and on the other side, the value in English in the center, surrounded by a ring of Chinese characters. I have never seen one of these for sale, and they are not listed by Woodward. The second series of tokens, just mentioned, says in English "Estab. 1848" but this must refer to Holtz in business by himself before the partnership. Hall didn't arrive in Shanghai till 1850.

The location of Hall & Holtz Co., Ltd: Nanjing Road

The metal composition: copper-nickel (CuNi)
Diameter:
1) one loaf: 27,40mm - 27,50mm
2) half loaf: 33mm
The weights are not constant.
Woodward lists the half loaf at 106 to 111 grains and the one loaf at 175 to 184 grains. Woodward says they are sometimes found with counterstamped numbers.I would guess only 5 to 10 pieces have come up for sale in the past 40 years.

A half loaf with "N" sold on Ebay 22nd May 2011 for 898 USD:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-HALL-HOLTZ-LTD-SHANGHAI-CHINA-TRADE-TOKEN-/200607858979?item=200607858979&ViewItem=&nma=true&si=tZGY1%2F7bTE2kGrGvu2uVxHETnDo%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

On 27th Sep. 2012 identical piece sold for 699 USD:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-Shanghai-Hall-Holtz-c1898-1-2-Loaf-with-N-Token-RRR-/221128101122?nma=true&si=tZGY1%2F7bTE2kGrGvu2uVxHETnDo%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

In China there are many catalogs about old chinese tokens, like the page from this old chinese tokens' book. But I think the best catalog for old Shanghai token is: The chips and coupons in old Shanghai, which includes beautiful clear pictures of all tokens made in Shanghai and also some coupons.

More information about old Shanghai bread token you can find on:
http://www.virtualshanghai.net/Photos/Images?ID=150
and...
http://www.shme.com/old_shanghai/wing.htm

Thank you for your reading. I hope that you enjoy it:)

from Shanghai
KONDi
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2012.10.22
11:21am
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 11:34:04 PM by KONDi »
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2012, 05:18:16 AM »
Which half-loaf do you like?
PK N13
Nr 1 is my half-loaf and on right is half-loaf which I found from some auction house
and the winner is... N12
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2012, 05:27:14 AM »
Recently, I discovered also something very interesting.
I found on half loaf with round hole from 1895 number 3909 and on one loaf with square hole and "N" counterstamp there is number 3996. I believe it was made by the same person. But I have no idea what those number chopmarks could mean. Perhaps it could mean some store place in old Shanghai. I am wondering, did those 2 number chopmarks did this company or some other person. I think it will be very hard or impossible to find out. But who knows. What is your opinion about those 2 numbers?
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2012, 06:00:05 AM »
For the PK, i think yours look better, the square hole is straight and there is no part of the design missing. The other token has a damaged 利.

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 05:31:36 PM »
Hey Kondi, I very much enjoy and appreciate you sharing your research...especially including the old photos of businesses which issued tokens in "Old Shanghai". Thanks!

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2013, 10:32:54 PM »
Dear Bearcat,

Thank you for your words of recognition. You are welcome. It is my pleasure to share information about those old Shanghai tokens with you guys :001_tongue:

Dear dragondollar,

Thank you for voting on my half loaf with "N" counterstamp from 1925:)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2013, 10:41:40 PM »
Dear all,

I discovered recently a book, which is also a catalog about old Shanghai token.
Sheets are black and white and there are some information about this. This book is from 1991.
I think it is worth to have it if you are interested in old Shanghai tokens.
The other book, which is more like a catalog---The Chips and coupons in old Shanghai is from 2005.
So far those are the only 2 books available on a market about old Shanghai tokens.
I found some sample sheets from this book. So I would like to share with you.
I hope you will enjoy as always :tongue_smilie:
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2013, 10:53:37 PM »
1)Hu & Sun - Shanghai Tokens; Extensive text (Chinese), plus 170 tokens illustrated, rarity guide.  107p+31pl, sc, 1991

2)The Chips and Coupons in Old Shanghai; Mainly color plates of coupons and metallic tokens including brothel coins, gambling, amusement, bar, liquor, restauranat, bread & transportation in 30 chapters by type. Shanghai was China's foreign enclave, thus many items have western script. Gorgeous phoography complemented by old photos of shops and street scenes. Chinese text with English chapter headings.   279p, 8.5x11.5", hc, 2005

3)Smith, Kenneth & Kirk Catalogue of World Transportation Tokens (Etc.); Series of books in various editions, worldwide coverage (except USA). Not many Asia / Africa listings, though China, Egypt, India, Israel, Iran, Pakistan, Philippines, South Africa, and Turkey are represented.   (Original 1967 work covering all categories $20). Please take a look from a page which is about old Shanghai bus tokens.

I found this all here and just wanted to share with you guys:
http://www.coincoin.com/bkZZ.htm

If you will have those 3 books/catalogs, then it will help you to collect Old Shanghai tokens:)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 04:28:36 AM »
More information and reference you can find in this book about Hall & Holtz Ltd old Shanghai tokens.
Before Hall & Holtz Ltd used copper-nickel tokens before 1895, they were using some other tokens. I believe these were copper ones. But I am not sure.

I also found some glossary with name in English and Chinese of all old Shanghai companies:

http://www.virtualshanghai.net/Texts/Appendices?ID=10

Enjoy!:)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2013, 11:32:09 AM »
Dear all,

Today is my lucky day N30 N4
I bought ONE LOAF Hall & Holtz Ltd old Shanghai bread token from 1925 with "N" counterstamp.
It is really hard to find these ONE LOAF tokens! HALF LOAF tokens you can still find from time to time but ONE LOAF tokens (those from 1925 + "N" and square hole as also 1895 without "N" and round hole) it is really hard to find.
I think my ONE LOAF is in VF condition. The "N" counterstamp is not so clear and rotated with square whole and of course it is not so beautiful like this XF condition ONE LOAF with "N" counterstamp which I found on the Internet. However I think it is beautiful token after all.
So let's PK for my ONE LOAF (on the right side) and the other ONE LOAF (one left side) N13
I hope I can find one day ONE LOAF with round hole from 1895. This is the only one which is missing for this set :001_wub:

Dragondollar what do you think about my ONE LOAF? :001_rolleyes:
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2013, 12:10:06 PM »
呵呵 this time your token does not win, even with the nice 包浆 :) But this is indeed an interesting piece. I have never seen these tokens here in Beijing. How much are those tokens worth?

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2013, 06:53:10 AM »
Dear dragondollar :001_smile:,

Thank you for your opinion. Yes, I know that this time my ONE LOAF wouldn't win, but I still love it :001_wub:
Now I am looking for similar bread token with round hole from 1895.
The one which I bought is from 1925 with "N" counterstamp. I took better photo of my 1925 old Shanghai bread token.
Now I know I won't get hungry, I will go to some bakery in Shanghai to get my ONE LOAF N16
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 12:24:15 PM »
 :001_smile:

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2013, 08:16:31 AM »
"There is another type of Hall & Holtz token, which comes in values of one loaf (about 31mm) and one small loaf (26mm) with round centerhole and apparently in copper (or brass). These have on one side a long inscription in English, and on the other side, the value in English in the center, surrounded by a ring of Chinese characters."

According to this what I found out. These are ONE LOAF and ONE SMALL LOAF are made of copper and those are much more rarer than those made of copper-nickel.

BTW, I would like to apologize everyone who was reading this post, because I made mistake here. The correct diameter for each should be:

The metal composition: copper-nickel (CuNi)
Diameter:
1) one loaf: 33mm
2) half loaf: 27,40mm - 27,50mm


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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2013, 08:23:22 AM »
In this book:
Hu & Sun - Shanghai Tokens; Extensive text (Chinese), plus 170 tokens illustrated, rarity guide.
page nr 16-17-18-19 and 111-112 you can find information about those tokens (Photo in attachment).

Ma Chuande book: "Coinage in Shanghai Bound" 1999 you can find also some informaton about those tokens on page nr: 205-206 (photo nr: P1020847)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 09:34:48 AM »
I also would like to share with all of you this piece of information which I found here about Hall & Holtz Ltd bread tokens:

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_6b1cdb5a0100txpz.html
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 10:47:51 PM »
Dear all,

Today I took a closer look on my 2 pieces of One loaf and Half loaf Hall & Holtz Ltd bread tokens. It seems that except a denomination: one piece is one loaf and the other is half loaf, there is no difference. Well, let me tell you something---there are few differences in a style of writing chinese characters on reverse. Of course, there is also difference in a size of "N" counterstamp. One one loaf the "N" counterstamp is bigger and on half loaf the "N" counterstamp is smaller (sometimes we can find half loaf with bigger counterstamp, which normally we can see on one loaf pieces). However let's focus on our chinese characters, shall we?:)

Let's analize those character on reverse of each (one load and half laof) bread token. As you can see. The shape of each characters is different. Some of them are connected, some of them are not. Some of them are sharper, some of them are blunt.
There are also some characters which are bold and also convex. The other chinese character you can judge by yourself by looking on my 4 photos with analysis of each chinese character on each bread token----Enjoy as always!:)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 11:27:03 PM »
Except different style of writing Chinese character on one and half loaf, there is also other variety about location of "N" counterstamp on one and half loaf pieces.

The normal location of "N" should be above the word "SHANGHAI" on obverse of this bread token. However there are also pieces which location of "N" is below the word "Hall & Holtz LTD", which shows this example with ONE LOAF (picture: 5767a). That's not everything. Some pieces of one and half loaf bread tokens (mostly those are half loaf tokens) have rotated "N" counterstamp (upside down "N") below the word "Hall & Holtz LTD" (picture: 5770a). Those pieces are more rare.

Wait! That's not all:) There are also piece like this half loaf (picture: 5768a) which are not even punched. These are much more rare! Some pieces, mostly one loaf pieces were repunched with square hole and rotated with "N" counterstamp parallel in the same direction. You can notice that on my own one loaf piece. I suspect that rotated repunched square hole and rotated "N" counterstamp went together. I mean the machine which they were using in 1925 to repunched those bread tokens from 1895---repunched the square hole and at the same time made "N" counterstamp. However I am not sure about it, that's my speculation only.

Some pieces have some number some number like 3909 or 3996. It could refer to some storage, but I am not sure about it either.

On the end I would like to show you the photo which I found on the Internet. I think this piece is the most beautiful error half loaf bread token from Hall & Holtz LTD---the token not only wasn't punched but also has chinese characters and English letters on both sides----that's my beauty:)

In old Shanghai there was more bakeries, but Hall & Holtz Ltd was the first western bakery in old Shanghai. Below you can see the other bread token from old Shanghai which I found on the Internet and would like to share with your guys. It is H. Evans & Co. 1 loaf bread token. However I love more the design of Hall & Holtz Ltd bread token---those made of copper-nickel with beautiful English design and chinese characters on reverse:)

ENJOY IT!:)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2013, 10:05:58 AM »
Dear all,

Last night I found some literature, which mention about Hall & Holtz Ltd company:

Chinese Dress: From the Qing Dynasty to the Present
By Valery Garrett
p. 144, Chapter 5, Figure 286 (A picture)

Asian Department Stores
By Kerrie L. MacPherson
p. 4 (B picture)

Shanghai Love: Courtesans, Intellectuals, and Entertainment Culture, 1850-1910
By Catherine Vance Yeh
p. 44 (C picture)

Changing Clothes in China: Fashion, History, Nation
By Antonia Finnane
p. 134 (D picture)

The City in Southeast Asia: Patterns, Processes and Policy
By Peter James Rimmer, Howard W. Dick
p. 164 (E picture)

The Sing-Song Girls of Shanghai
By Bangqing Han, Ailing Zhang, Eva Hung
p. 315 (F picture)

China monthly review - Volume 81 - Page 32
The history of Shanghai - Page 471
Hall died in 1886, while Holtz returned to Shanghai as late as 1889

China Monthly Review, Volume 81
A profit of $10,054.31 was made during 1936, against the loss of S17,243.71 in 1935, by Hall and Holtz, Ltd., British department store in Shanghai, according to the annual report made by Eric Moller...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2013, 10:44:40 AM »
"...Some pieces of one and half loaf bread tokens (mostly those are half loaf tokens) have rotated "N" counterstamp..."

Here is an example of One loaf with rotated "N". The rotation goes parallel with repunched square whole, which might assumes that repunched square hole and "N" counterstamp was made by the same machine.

Below you can also see H.Evans & Co. It is a copper token for four loaves. You can find a photo of this token in a book from 2005: The chips and coupons in old Shanghai.

This bakery (H.Evans & Co) was established by Englishman Henry Evans in 1858 and acquired by Hall & Holtz Ltd. in 1886.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2013, 09:12:57 AM »
Dear coin/token collectors and dealers,

I found some reference English book:
"The Coins of The British Commonwealth of Nations to the end of the reign of George VI 1952" Part 2 Asian Territories 1965 by F.Pridmore

p.323, 324 and 325 Pridmore mention about Hall & Holtz Ltd and H.Evans & Co. Those 2 companies and also others were issuing bread tokens.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2013, 09:44:15 AM »
"Recently, I discovered also something very interesting.
I found on half loaf with round hole from 1895 number 3909 and on one loaf with square hole and "N" counterstamp there is number 3996. I believe it was made by the same person. But I have no idea what those number chopmarks could mean. Perhaps it could mean some store place in old Shanghai. I am wondering, did those 2 number chopmarks did this company or some other person. I think it will be very hard or impossible to find out. But who knows. What is your opinion about those 2 numbers?"


I will answer my own question...

According to Pridmore p.324-----See photo: "Pridmore p.324"
Woodward on p.13-----See photo: "2-Woodward p.13"

See picture with HALF LOAF + number and ONE LOAF "N" + number (Woodward added on the end p.13---"Very few pieces of the Neil issue had cyphers impressed")
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2013, 09:48:35 AM »
By the way, about H.Evans & Co and Hall & Holtz Ltd tokens also T.Woodward in his book "The coins of Shanghai" on p.12-13
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2013, 09:52:05 AM »
1 loaf and 4 loaves bread tokens from H.Evans & Co also mention this chinese book: "The chips and coupons in old Shanghai" 2005, which is more like a catalog but illustrated in beautiful way.

Recently one of my Chinese friend bought in Japan 1 loaf token with punched square hole (please take a look)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2013, 10:00:58 AM »
...so how old are these Hall & Holtz Ltd bread tokens??

Well, the answer is not so clear as we think...Pridmore says in his book on p.324 that: "The tokens were struck in England about 1895-1900..."
Woodward interviewed a manager on 1929.01.29 and he told him that they were issued 30-35 years ago---See photo: "Woodward p.13", which would means that 1929 - 30/35 they were issued 1899 or 1894 N8.

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2013, 02:39:51 AM »
...error Half loaf bread token of Hall & Holtz Ltd made of copper:

1) sold at Baldwin's Auctions Ltd in 2009
http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=193995

2) sold once again this time at Ponterio & Associates in 2011
http://www.mcsearch.info/search.html?search=similar%3A382528#3

3)...maybe it will show on this year auction somewhere:)

First I saw this piece at Ponterio & Associates that was sold in 2011. I was sure it was made of copper-nickel. Since all Half and One loaf Hall & Holtz Ltd bread tokens which has such of design are made of copper-nickel, but this error Half loaf is made of copper. It seems that picture taken under different angle give totally different impression :001_rolleyes:.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2013, 03:28:28 AM »
Dear all,

I found new interesting information about Hall & Holtz Ltd. and I would like to share with everyone. Enjoy as always!:)

source:
http://archive.org/stream/cu31924023217825/cu31924023217825_djvu.txt

European Stores

Hall & Holtz (" Fuh-Lee "), 14, Nanking Road, provision merchants, bakers, tailors and outfitters, furnishers, drapers, and milliners.

.....................................................
"Who's who---An Alphabetical list of Foreign residents and Hong employees in Shanghai, and outports. 1904."
[Where the Name of the place is omitted, Shanghai will be understood.

List of Hall & Holtz Ltd. staff from 1904:

1)Allen, I.W. (photo: "employee1")
2) Borioni, F.H. (H & H Ltd., Tientsin---look on picture: "Tientsin H & & Ltd".)
3) Bowness, S.
4) Burgess, J.C.
5) Copper, W.
6) Cruse, A.S.
7) Fursman, W.C.
8) Gosling, A.C.N.
9) Hickmott, A.G.
10) Hill, A.
11) Hutchinson, W.
12) Jones, B.F.
13) Lee, A.W.
14) Munro, Jas.
15) Nunes, J.S.S.
16) Palmer, E.R.
17) Quick, Jno.C.
18) Rangel, I.M.
19) Remedios, S.B.dos (sounds like Spanish surname or Mexican surname)
20) Rickard, R.A.
21) Rooda, A.
22) Spenceley, C.A. (H & H Ltd., Hankow---look on picture: "Hankow H & & Ltd".)
23) Stewart, F.W. (H & H Ltd., Hankow---look on picture: "Hankow H & & Ltd".)
24) Tompson, W.W.
25) Tuck, E.
26) Vine, W.J.
27) Wilson, J.
28) Wrentmore, S.G. (H & H Ltd., Tientsin---look on picture: "Tientsin H & & Ltd".)
29) Ward, S.H. (H & H Ltd., Tientsin---look on picture: "Tientsin H & & Ltd".)

I was also able to find in this article what happened with Hall & Holtz Ltd. before the communist take over the country (in attachment). I think it is article: "Department stores in early 20th century Shanghai embeddness of clan structure in the business environment" but Brenda Sternquist and Yan Ma from Michigan State University p.342-343 (picture: "H and H Ltd_1" and "H and H Ltd_2").

Finally, I was able to find what happened later with Hall & Holtz Ltd. from remains of information on this web page:
http://en.hkcomp.info/hongkong/cps.jsp?key=2106-158a46fc
Hall & Holtz Ltd. moved to Hongkong, which showed registration date: 22nd August 1946, which is also the date of establishment. The company nr was: 0002109. The dissolve date is 20th September 1996. So H & H Ltd. was still in business until 1996 (for 50 years in Hongkong). So what really happened in 1996?

...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2013, 03:30:49 AM »
the rest employees (2)...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2013, 03:32:13 AM »
the rest employees (3)...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2013, 03:34:59 AM »
the rest employees (4)...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2013, 03:37:14 AM »
Regarding to this what I said here:

I was also able to find in this article what happened with Hall & Holtz Ltd. before the communist take over the country (in attachment). I think it is article: "Department stores in early 20th century Shanghai embeddness of clan structure in the business environment" but Brenda Sternquist and Yan Ma from Michigan State University p.342-343 (picture: "H and H Ltd_1" and "H and H Ltd_2").
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2013, 09:36:21 AM »
Dear all,

The more I am able to find about this Hall & Holtz Ltd. company the more exciting it becomes :001_rolleyes:

I found something more...

In this article:
"Promoting the Foreign: Advertising of Department Stores in Republican Shanghai" by Ling-ling Lien, Institute of Modern History, Academia Sinica, p.3-4, 8-9. I found out that Hall & Holtz went transformation from a small bakery to department store.
Most of sources of information which I found say that 1843 is the year of founding. The company put also attention on advertisements and in 1929 (green color on picture 9a) the numbers of H & H Ltd. advertisements was the highest in the history of the company.

So far I wasn't able to find (it is very hard N8) information when the Hall & Holtz Ltd. closed their store and moved from Shanghai to Hongkong to registered there in 1946, but according to:
"Revisiting the psychic distance paradox: international retailing in China in the long run 1840-2005" by Andrew Godley and Haiming Hang, School of Management Henley Business School University of Reading UK, p. 13 and 18.
...on page 18, there is a sentence that "the Big Four survived Japanese invasion and war, with Wing On the last one to close its store in mainland in 1956". This means that Hall & Holtz Ltd. still existed as a company in Shanghai at least till 1945. That's my conclusion.

There is a book which only mention H & H Ltd.:
Shanghai - A Handbook For Travellers And Residents by Rev. C.E. Darwent (xvii)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2013, 09:44:56 AM »
To don't confuse anyone collector of Hall & Holtz Ltd. tokens and say that all those information which I am giving you here are sucked from a finger. I would like to attach 2 PDF documents, where I found those information.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2013, 10:09:32 AM »
Finally on the end of this day I would like to give you one more information.
I believe that you all noticed that Hall & Holtz Ltd. was founded in 1843.
However I found in one article:
"Factors related to the rise of large scale merchandising in the third world: The case of the department store" by Saleh Malaikah, Michigan State University, p.399, 407 and 409.
that Hall & Holtz Ltd. was the first department store opened in 1841 (p.399, I don't know what "Ho 1933" means). Later the same author of this article on the page 407 says that H & H Ltd. was the oldest department store in Shanghai incorporated in 1842. So I got really confused with those 3 dates: 1841, 1842 and 1843 N14
My assumptions:
Hall & Holtz Ltd. started business unofficially in 1841 in Shanghai. In 1842 the company was registered in Hongkong (which says page 409). With the date 1842 and their registration in Hongkong I have another question: Why they have to register in 1946 in Hongkong once again since they were registered in 1842?

This is a mystery company with beautiful designed tokens. The company let's just say exist from 1843 and stop exist in 1996 (153 years on a market, with a lot of transformation and places where it was located)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2013, 08:05:29 AM »
Dear all,

A small update about Hall & Holtz Ltd.

I found this small information:
http://www.vcea.net/Digital_Library/Images_en.php?ID=352

I also found this advertisment in newspaper by H & H Ltd.
http://epaper.idoican.com.cn/zlxb/html/1961-01/01/content_1877076.htm?div=-1

But I am little bit confused, because the date is 1961.01.01
On that time the company were located in Hongkong, not in Shanghai anymore.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2013, 10:11:16 AM »
This page is from this book:
Catalogue of World Transportation Tokens and Passes Except North America Smith, Kenneth E.

1)Hu & Sun - Shanghai Tokens; Extensive text (Chinese), plus 170 tokens illustrated, rarity guide.  107p+31pl, sc, 1991

2)The Chips and Coupons in Old Shanghai; Mainly color plates of coupons and metallic tokens including brothel coins, gambling, amusement, bar, liquor, restauranat, bread & transportation in 30 chapters by type. Shanghai was China's foreign enclave, thus many items have western script. Gorgeous phoography complemented by old photos of shops and street scenes. Chinese text with English chapter headings.   279p, 8.5x11.5", hc, 2005

3)Smith, Kenneth & Kirk Catalogue of World Transportation Tokens (Etc.); Series of books in various editions, worldwide coverage (except USA). Not many Asia / Africa listings, though China, Egypt, India, Israel, Iran, Pakistan, Philippines, South Africa, and Turkey are represented.   (Original 1967 work covering all categories $20). Please take a look from a page which is about old Shanghai bus tokens.

I found this all here and just wanted to share with you guys:
http://www.coincoin.com/bkZZ.htm

If you will have those 3 books/catalogs, then it will help you to collect Old Shanghai tokens:)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2013, 09:58:55 AM »
According to one of knowledgeable and experienced collector, which I know and corresponding with Hall & Holtz was originally chartered in Hong Kong, even though they operated in Shanghai (and later in other cities). However it needs deeper examination. This was a common business practice for British companies. For example, the China General Omnibus Company, though it operated in Shanghai, was chartered in Hong Kong. In any event, it appears that after the war, they may have rechartered the company in Hong Kong in 1946. This was simply shrewd business practice. By 1946 it was clear that China was politically unstable. It was unclear at that point who would win the civil war which everyone knew was coming. Chartering the company outside China would give it some protection from both the Kuomintang and the communists.
Here is some information about James Neil (who put countermark "N" on those Hall & Holtz Ltd. tokens in 1925.
He was in the bakery business before he bought Hall & Holtz bakery. He operated in Shanghai under the names James Neil & Company and James Neil Scotch Bakery as early as 1917. He still used these names after 1924, which suggests that he purchased H & H but continued to operate it under the original name -- perhaps with a special contract to supply the Hall & Holtz department stores. Neil's Scotch Bakery had three locations in Shanghai in 1925. The company was originally a wholesale biscuit baker, but by the 1910's they operated cafes which sold pastry and tea.

I would like to special thank to Mr Smith N40 for his input in my researches and those above information N3.

I also was able to find those information here:

http://www.btmbeijing.com/contents/en/business/2008-06/timehonouredbrand/yiliabrand

"In 1906, a Scottish businessman, James Neil, came to Shanghai. He set up a stall near the Hall & Holtz Corporation, also a British company, to sell home-made western pastries and bread, which were welcomed by the westerners in the Shanghai International Settlement. Hall & Holtz discovered the talented Neil and employed him to manage its food department. Years later, the entrepreneurial Neil left Hall & Holtz and opened his own company named James Neil & Company Limited, with YILI as its Chinese name, meaning “righteousness comes first and then the benefit,” a concept of Confucianism. Since their inception, Yili’s bread, pastries, biscuit and chocolate have been popular. In 1939, Neil died, and his son inherited the company and continued it until the outbreak of the War of Resistance Against Japanese Aggression. The company was then transferred to a Jewish man named "Vick" (transliteration). But not long after, the Japanese army invaded Shanghai, arrested the new owner and took over James Neil & Company Limited. In 1945, Vick got out jail but was frustrated by the damage to the company. In 1946, he sold the company to a group of Chinese businessmen. Ni Jiaxi became the executive board chairman and the James Neil & Company Limited was changed into Yili Food Company. But the operation of the Yili Food Company was not so smooth. First came the civil war; many foreigners then fled China. A shrinking market and competition from companies with access to foreign capital put the Yili Food Company into a tough situation. Then, in 1950, the Yili Food Company was invited to move to Beijing, where it became a State-owned company."
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2013, 10:42:28 AM »
Dear all Hall & Holtz company's fans,

I am writting again to update information which I found. I don't know where to start...it is so interesting and exciting:)

Let's start from here. I found on this web page
http://www.mildchina.com/shanghai-attractions/shanghai-nanjing-road.html
some information about the History of Nanjing Rd. Hall & Holtz is mentioned. Modern Shanghai didn't forgot the oldest western company:)

Now the key points of this update.

I would out that George Gray was a clerk working for H & H. He established a branch in Nagasaki/Japan in 1863 and in Kobe/Japan in 1871. I found his signed domcument in his own name and for the compamy. Please check photos and here is a link where I found it:

http://www.meiji-portraits.de/meiji_portraits_g.html#20090527093316843_1_2_3_22_1

Finally as a last one update info. I found over here:

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/authentic-original-pith-helmet-hat-312940319

"...and that it was "Specially made for Hall & Holtz Ltd, Shanghai" and it is a classic white pith helmet in design."

That this is original Pith Helmet Hat. On a picture "H & H Ltd" we can see someone who is standing with I think it is similar hat in front of Hall & Holtz Ltd. store. Also on a postcard, photo "H & H Shanghai" we can see someone in a red jacket with white hat standing in front of Hall & Holtz store. Could it be Royal Navy Guard in both cases? I think so...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2013, 08:17:12 AM »
Dear all,

There is a possibility---only possibility tha Hall & Holtz Ltd. copper-nickel Half Loaf and One Loaf manufactured by at the Heaton mint, Birmingham. This is only my speculation. It comes from this link which I found:
http://ns1.holidays.net/store/China---Shanghai-Hall-%26-Holtz,-Ltd-10Lbs-Merchant-Token-SCARCE-AU_330840676603.html
On this link we can see old Shanghai token from Shanghai Ice, Cold Storage & Refrigeration Co and is for 10 pounds of Ice. It has similar design to Hall & Holtz Ltd. copper-nickel tokens. The fast is that H & H Ltd. copper-nickel bread tokens were made in England. Where exactly? and by which mint? we can only speculate...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2013, 10:58:28 AM »
Dear all,

I went by tracks of old Shanghai today to find the building of former Hall & Holtz Ltd. company from old Shanghai and I found it.
The building is on Nanjing Road 114, where now are some other stores. But is is great feeling to see this building there. It is like back in time :001_rolleyes:
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2013, 11:41:29 AM »
Dear all,

I purchased today ONE LOAF old Shanghai bread token from 1895 with round hole issued by Hall & Holtz Ltd. The condition is not so good but it is very rare token. Please pay attention that the hole is round not square one and there is no "N" counterstamp. I think my piece is in VG-F condition (nr 2) and if we will compare it with the other similar token which I found on some auction house---I think this one is in VG condition (nr 1). My token won't win with this "gold medalist^_^" but can it win silver medal at least? Let's PK N13
Dragondollar once again I would like to ask you to be a judge :001_tongue:

And the second place is for...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2013, 11:44:42 AM »
According to that what I found out. Only 4 copper Hall & Holtz bread tokens came up on auction for sell (nr 1, nr 2 and nr 3 which is ONE LOAF and ONE SMALL LOAF). Nr 4 is my new purchase. I think this the condition is VF-XF (very 漂亮) :thumbup:

Let's PK N13
Which one do you like?
NR 1    NR 2    NR 3   OR  my NR 4
I think the winner is nr 1---it is the most beautiful. But I think if you compare ONE LOAF from NR 3 and NR 2 with my NR 4, you might agree with me that my piece will get second place N12

dragondollar what do you think?
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2013, 12:00:59 PM »
This is a picture from a book about old Shanghai postcards---my Hall & Holtz Ltd. company :001_wub:
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2013, 03:40:26 AM »
Dear all,

I have some new information about my favorite old Shanghai tokens: Hall & Holtz Co., Ltd.

This is a selling record in auction houses of those tokens:

Ponterio & Associates
December 2010 Hong Kong Sale (2010.12.03)
CHINA. Shanghai Hall & Holtz, Ltd.. Copper-Nickel Half Loaf Merchant Token, ND.
Pridmore-330. Square hole in center, countermark "N".

Ponterio & Associates
August 2011 Hong Kong Auction (22.08.2011)
CHINA. Shanghai. Copper-Nickel One Loaf Merchant Token, ND (ca. 1925).
Prid-328. Hall & Holtz Ltd. Square hole in center, countermark "N".

Ponterio & Associates
August 2011 Hong Kong Auction (22.08.2011)
CHINA. Shanghai. Copper-Nickel Half Loaf Merchant Token, ND (ca. 1900-25).
Prid-329. Hall & Holtz Ltd. Round hole in center.

Ponterio & Associates
August 2011 Hong Kong Auction (22.08.2011)
CHINA. Shanghai. Copper Half Loaf Merchant Token, CD (ca. 1900-25).
cf.Prid-329. Hall & Holtz Ltd. Flip over double strike, without center hole punched out.

Ponterio & Associates
August 2011 Hong Kong Auction (22.08.2011)
CHINA. Shanghai. Copper One Loaf Merchant Token, ND (ca. 1895-1900).
Prid-326. Hall & Holtz Bread & Biscuit Bakers. Round hole in center.

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd
Hong Kong Coin Auction 40 (01.09.2005)
Hall & Holtz Ltd. : Copper-nickel Token for half-loaf and Copper-nickel Token for one-loaf

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd
Hong Kong Coin Auction 46 (02.04.2009)
CHINESE COINS. Tokens: Goats Head nickel Token, used as 5 cent coin, c.1900, Hall and Holtz Ltd, Shanghai, Nickel One Loaf Token, round hole, another, square hole, 1925-1926 (Pridmore 327, 328),...

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd
Hong Kong Coin Auction 40 (01.09.2005)
Hall & Holtz Ltd. : Copper Tokens for one small loaf and one loaf...

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd
Auction 59-60 (05.05.2009)
Coins Of The British Empire. Shanghai. Nickel Token, pre 1925, obv HALL AND HOLTZ Ltd. ONE LOAF SHANGHAI

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd
Auction 59-60 (05.05.2009)
Coins Of The British Empire. Shanghai. Copper ?-Loaf Token, pre 1925, details as preceding lot, but has been struck in copper with obverse and reverse struck over both sides

Noble Numismatics PTY LTD
Sale 93   13–16 Apr 2010   Hotel InterContinental   Sydney
CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, General Storekeepers, Established 1848, bread token, one small loaf, copper (26mm) with central hole (not in Pridmore, similar design Pr.326).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, General Storekeepers, Established 1848, bread token, one loaf, copper (31mm), central hole, issued 1895-1900 (Pr.326).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, bread token, nickel (33.5mm), one loaf, with central circular hole (Pr.327).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, bread token, nickel (33.5mm), one loaf, circular central hole has been punched square and an incuse letter "N" stamped below (Pr.328).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, bread token, nickel (33.5mm), one loaf, with square hole but incuse "N" above (similar to Pr.328).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, bread token, copper (27.5mm), half loaf, no central hole, (not listed in Pridmore, similar Pr.329).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall & Holtz, bread token, nickel (27.5mm), half loaf, square central hole and incuse "N" stamped below (Pr.330).

CHINA, Shanghai, Hall and Holtz, bread token, nickel (27.5mm), half loaf, square central hole and incuse "N" above. (not listed by Pridmore, similar to Pr.330).

As you can see the first selling record of those tokens appeared in 2005 and the last one is from 2011. Those are extremely rare stuff! :thumbup:
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2013, 08:26:53 AM »
Oh, I had missed your previous update. Your #4 token is indeed second to #1, but it looks pretty nice. Solid XF with old toning.

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2013, 08:30:10 AM »
I know dragondollar---I still love it:)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2013, 08:33:03 AM »
Dragondollar,

What do you think about my piece here...I think is also nr 2. I also have the one whch I have for sale here T19:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8454.0
But I think this one "my piece" is in a better condition. Those tokens are VERY HARD to find!

Dear all,

I purchased today ONE LOAF old Shanghai bread token from 1895 with round hole issued by Hall & Holtz Ltd. The condition is not so good but it is very rare token. Please pay attention that the hole is round not square one and there is no "N" counterstamp. I think my piece is in VG-F condition (nr 2) and if we will compare it with the other similar token which I found on some auction house---I think this one is in VG condition (nr 1). My token won't win with this "gold medalist^_^" but can it win silver medal at least? Let's PK N13
Dragondollar once again I would like to ask you to be a judge :001_tongue:

And the second place is for...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2013, 11:34:30 AM »
Dear all,

I got a while ago some very interesting information from a respectable collector: Mr Smith. This information is about which bread tokens are in a possession of the HK & Shanghai Bank collection. Here is the list:

H. Evans
1) 4 loaves in brass  with the griffin design
2) 1 loaf in brass
3) 1 loaf in zinc
4) 1/2 loaf in zinc with square center hole

Hall & Holtz
1) 1 loaf brass with round hole; long inscription on both sides (Chinese / English)
They don't have the 1/2 loaf with long inscription.
2) 1 loaf white metal with round hole; short inscription type (6 Chin. characters on back)
3) 1/2 loaf white metal with round hole; short inscription type
4) 1/2 loaf white metal, square hole, with  N  counterstamp below hole
5) 1/2 loaf brass, no hole. There is a space for a round hole on the Chinese side, but it was not punched out.
6) 1/2 loaf brass, no hole. Same as previous, but a little larger.
7) 1/2 loaf brass, no hole. Woman's portrait obverse; reverse same as previous types (6 Chinese characters) with space for round center hole, but it was not punched out.

This is very interesting information. I would like to special thanks to Mr Smith.
This is all for development of numismatic world and to inspire new collectors in the future^_^
KONDi
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2013, 04:43:53 AM »
Dear all,

I would like to share very interesting information.

Recently I found on American Numismatic Society website:
http://numismatics.org/collection/1924.210.1
http://numismatics.org/collection/1999.34.25

According to them ONE SMALL LOAF was issued by Birmingham mint (Heaton's Mint):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Mint
...started producing tokens and coins in 1850 as a private enterprise, separate from, but in cooperation with the Royal Mint.which confirms my private researches.

However the part where I do not agree with American Numismatic Society is that this copper bread token was used between 1952-1989 in Guangdong province. If this token and also his bigger brother ONE LOAF were used between 1952 to 1989 then those tokens would be very common. Also why should they use Shanghai token in Guangdong province, where legen in Chinese even mention the name of the street where the company was located.

Later issued Hall & Holtz token:

Obverse Legend: HALL and HOLTZ LTD ONE LOAF SHANGHAI
Reverse Legend: fu li ko mien pao (Chinese legend)
The Material is not NI (nickel) bur CU-NI (copper-nickel) of those tokens: HALF LOAF and ONE LOAF.
Another mistake is in Mint: Shanghai. It was not made in Shanghai by local mint only by Birmingham mint (Heaton's Mint) and shiped to Shanghai.
Locality: Jiangsu, which is wrong! It was used in city of Shanghai only.
Finally the date when it was issued was probably 1895, not Date: 1900-1925. In the year 1925 the new owner repunched these tokens with square hole and put "N" counterstamp to distinguish them from old issued ones with round holes.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2013, 04:27:02 AM »
Dear old Shanghai token collectors and coin dealers,

I have interesting discovery!

During my visit in British Museum (virtual visit, but still I went through many website)
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3190504&partId=1&searchText=China&object=19802&page=1

I found the picture of copper variety of 7th Hall & Holtz bread token variety which owns also except the British Museum also HSBC in Hong Kong.

This piece is very rare. However it is not made of brass is listed here:

7) 1/2 loaf brass, no hole. Woman's portrait obverse; reverse same as previous types (6 Chinese characters) with space for round center hole, but it was not punched out.

It is made of copper.

This piece can solve one of the mystery of Hall & Holtz bread tokens. What I mean by this mystery. Well I mean the date when Half loaf and One loaf (metal: CuNi) were issued. If I will be able to discover it and I have some trace then it will be huge discovery, since all the books were burned in a fire, according to the interview which Woodward did in 1934 with general manager of Hall & Holtz.

Well let's see what I can find out...

By the way, this piece belongs to the British Museum and it was acquired by the museum in 1979. I was trying to get some detail information from the person from who the museum acquired this piece but the person can't record anything about it since it was long time ago (1979).
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2013, 10:48:41 AM »
Dear old Shanghai token fellow collectors and coin dealers,

Yesterday evening (Shanghai time) was a glorious day for numismatic world.

Together with Dr Gary Oddie from the Token Corresponding Society:
http://www.tokensociety.org.uk/
and Mrs Helen Wang from The British Museum:
http://thebritishmuseum.academia.edu/HelenWang
we discovered missing link between Hall & Holtz bread tokens (metal: CuNi) and the mint which issued these tokens.

Till yesterday I suspected ONLY that Hall & Holtz bread tokens were minted by Heaton Mint/Birmingham Mint, since similar token: The Shanghai Ice, Cold Storage & Refrigeration Co. Ltd were issued by this mint.

But today I can say it with 100% of confidence that Hall & Holtz bread tokens made of copper-nickel were issued by Heaton Mint.

I discovered that there is an inscription below the bust of a woman.

That was Dr Gary Oddie who confirmed that this fuzzy sign is "HEATON".

With Mrs Helen Wang from the British Museum who found the token with "similar" appearance. This piece has on one side: Ralph Heaton & Sons Coiners Head of Libertad right:

http://noble.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=82440
My conclusion is that the portrait of the woman on this piece is 100% indentical!
On the copper variety with Woman's portrait obverse and reverse same as previous types (6 Chinese characters) with space for round center hole, but it was not punched out we can see clearly that the size of die with woman's portrait was smaller because there is still some space between a rim and teeth. I would say 2,5-3mm. According to what British Museum wrote about this piece:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3190504&partId=1&searchText=China&object=19802&page=1
It has 28 millimetres in diameter. On Ralph Heaton & Sons Coiners Head of Libertad right it says that it has only 25 millimeters in diameter.
The distance the bottom of bust to the inner teeth is exactly the same on the BM piece as on the piece which was sold by Noble Numismatics PTY LTD:
http://noble.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=82440
The features on the woman's portrait are also the same.

Since the piece sold by Noble Numismatics PTY LTD had the inscription "Ralph Heaton & Sons..." it means that both pieces were issued during Ralph Heaton III period in Heaton mint. Ralph Heaton III joined to partnership in 1853:
http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/themes/2023/heaton-sons-mint-birmingham-england
http://www.coinwiki.co.uk/index.php?title=The_Heaton_Mint
On 22nd of March 1889 the name "Ralph Heaton & Sons" was changed to "The Mint Birmingham Limited".

That means that Hall & Holtz bread tokens were issued by "Ralph Heaton & Sons" between 1853 to 1889.

Pridmore in his book on page 324 claims that Hall & Holtz bread tokens were issued between 1895 to 1900.

I say it would be less likely that Hall & Holtz bread tokens were issued after 1899 because after 1899 the name of the mint changed and below the portrait wouldn't be name "Heaton".Unfortunately I think it is very hard to find out the date of issue of those bread tokens but it could be between 1894 to 1899 since Mr. E. Barraclough who was the manager in 1929 during the interview with Woodward told him that these tokens had been procured from England 30 to 35 years ago:
year 1929 - 30 years = year: 1899
year 1929 - 35 years = year: 1894

The portrait of the woman is known as "Head of Libertad". Heaton mint issued for example in 1858 for Venezuela similar Head of Libertad on their coins:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1858-Heaton-Venezuela-Centavo-Libertad-Incuse-NG-XF45-BN-183-/330935722507?nma=true&si=WurA%252B7vWFHcokyrEVbxfdRWukVA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

The truth in which year Hall & Holtz bread tokens were exactly issued is lying in The Birmingham City Archives. Unfortunately The Birmingham City Archives are closed until September.

I would like to send special thanks to Dr Oddie and Mrs Wang---that was a nice team work, isn't it?:)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2013, 03:56:09 AM »
Dear all,

I got an answer from Noble Numismatics PTY LTD.
The piece which they sold:
http://noble.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=82440
was an advertising token issued about 1880.

This piece has identical woman's portrait and identical world "HEATON" below a bust.

I assume that Hall & Holtz bread tokens: One loaf and Half loaf made of copper-nickel were issued by Heaton Mint during 1880-1889. The date: 22nd March 1889 was the date when the company name was changed from Heaton and Sons to The Mint Birmingham Limited. So they wouldn't mark their tokens or coins as "H" letter or "Heaton" I believe.

That means that Mr. Barraclough who was the manager in 1929 during the interview with Woodward was wrong telling him that these tokens had been procured from England 30 to 35 years ago:
year 1929 - 30 years = year: 1899
year 1929 - 35 years = year: 1894

I could non of those 2 dates: 1899 or 1894. This copper pattern is a proof that those Hall & Holtz bread tokens (CuNi) were issued by Heaton Mint between 1880 to 1889. I hope I will be able to get to The Birmingham City Archives to discover the exactly date.

Exciting? Isn't it?
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2013, 02:32:16 AM »
Here is another company which issued also bread token.
The name of the company was "Dah daw & Co. They issued One loaf and I believe also Half loaf in Hankow city.
Very interested piece. The reverse is 90-degree rotated.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2013, 12:59:52 AM »
The Chronicle & Directory for China, Japan & The Philippines, for the year 1872

List of Hall & Holtz Ltd. staff from 1872:
1) Cowderoy, W., (Hall & Holtz) assistant, Shanghai (photos A2)
2) Dyer, H., (Hall & Holtz) storekeeper, Shanghai (photos A3)
3) Everall, H., (Hall & Holtz) storekeeper, Shanghai (photo A4)
4) Knight, H., (Hall & Holtz) storekeeper, Shanghai (photo A6)
5) Short, W. H., (Hall & Holtz) storekeeper, Shanghai (photo A8)
6) Skeels, H. J., (Hall & Holtz) clerk, Shanghai (photo A9)
7) Symons, H., (Hall & Holtz) clerk, Shanghai (photo A10)
8) Valentine, B. A., (Hall & Holtz) clerk, Shanghai (photo A1)

The others are not related with Hall & Holtz company but they belong to other companies which are also interested.

Like Evans, H., (H.Evans & Co.) probably the owner of H.Evans & Co.
Gabriel, J., (H.Evans & Co.) assistant in H.Evans & Co.

So when we will compare H.Evans & Co. to Hall & Holtz, we can easily notice that H.Evans & Co. was a small bakery in Shanghai on that time and Hall & Holtz was already big company with 8 employees who worked in Hall & Holtz in 1872.

When we will compare with the list of Hall & Holtz Ltd. staff from 1904 to the one from 1872. We see that there are 29 employees in 1904, which means that company was keep growing and even explored other cities in China: Hankow and Tientsin.

Enjoy as always:)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2013, 01:05:18 AM »
Gabriel, J., (H.Evans & Co.) assistant in H.Evans & Co. (photo A5)

There is also another company called: "Mustard & Co." and I believe it was Mustard, R. W., who was a general store keeper in Shanghai in 1872 was also the owner. However I could be wrong about this (photo A7). Mustard & Co. issued 2 tokens about 1890: Good for 30 cash (metal: CuNi) and Good for 50 cash (metal: brass).
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2013, 01:54:57 PM »
Excellent work of investigation! It seems you are becoming a master in the study of Chinese tokens. I think you should publish your findings in a more structured format so everyone can refer to it easily later.

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2013, 09:35:11 PM »
Thank you dragondollar. I think "master" is little too big word, but "token lover" I guess it's me:).
I focus mainly on Shanghai tokens right now. Maybe in a future I will move into some other group from different region of China. I will see...Thank you for your advince I will try to follow it when I will describe another token.
The problem with finding information about Shanghai tokens is that, main books like Pridmore, Smith and Woodward contain or too less information about each token (Pridmore, Smith) or not enough information (Woodward). Chinese literature has another problem. The information are erroneous (Shanghai Tokens, 1991) or there are too less information (The Chips and coupons in old Shanghai, 2005). Also Chinese books contain illustrations of tokens which are American tokens. It would be great if someone will publish a new book about Shanghai tokens.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2013, 04:55:17 AM »
Dear token lovers from Shanghai :001_smile:

You are probably thinking when NGC and PCGS will start grade Shanghai tokens.

I don't have any information from PCGS but NGC already started grade Shanghai token.

Here is an example of Half Loaf Hall & Holtz bread token graded by NGC as: NGC Token AU Details--Counterstamped

The counterstamped pieces are rare ones! This has number: 3391 above "half loaf"

All Shanghai bus tokens (1924, 1926 and 1939 issue) can also be send to NGC to be graded:
World Transportation Tokens, as listed in Smith & Smith references
http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDarticle=2550

I see that Shanghai tokens are new area, like undiscovered numismatic world yet for NGC and PCGS.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2013, 05:21:00 AM »
Forgot to mention that NGC grades all Shanghai tokens which are listed in Pridmore book.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2013, 11:07:19 PM »
My new discovery which I would like to share with everyone is about copper variety of Hall & Holtz bread tokens.

As you know there are 2 token made in copper: One Loaf and One Small Loaf.

On the obverse of each close to word: ESTAB there is smaller letter "D".

When we take a look on ONE LOAF there is a dot below letter "D".
But when we will take a look on ONE SMALL LOAF there is a line below letter "D".

I am wondering why...?
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2013, 10:12:21 AM »
According to the newspaper: "The Colonies and India" from 22nd May 1897, page 17.
Mr. W. H. Short, manager of Hall & Holtz (Limited), died in Shanghai the other day, aged 54.

Link:
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/35686296/

He was listed in:
The Chronicle & Directory for China, Japan & The Philippines, for the year 1872 as a storekeeper.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2013, 10:46:00 AM »
In the article "The Coins of Shanghai" by A. M. Tracey Woodward, during an interview with Mr. Frulkner (general manager of Hall & Holtz in 1934) mentioned that there were old books which were destroyed in a fire some years ago...

Does those some years ago mean exact date 17th February 1914 or year 1915??
If in one of those years: 1914 or 1915 those books burned, in which there could be some detail information about copper-nickel variety Hall & Holtz bread tokens, then why previous manager Mr. Barraclough on 29th January 1929 didn't mention about the fire during the interview with Woodward?

Maybe there was another fire between 1929 to 1933 in Hall & Holtz company...

The Straits Times-5 March 1914-Page 9:
http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19140305-1.2.64.aspx

The Straits Times-29 April 1924-Page 3:
http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19240429.2.8.aspx
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2013, 11:30:24 AM »

Speaking about Hall & Holtz it is worth to mention László Hudec, who was an active figure in years 1918-1945 in Shanghai.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Hudec
http://thatsmags.com/shanghai/articles/12315
http://www.hudec.cn/

He designed such of buildings in Shanghai as: Normandie Apartment - 1924, Moore Memorial Church - 1931, Park Hotel Shanghai - 1934 or others (see photos in attachment).

But to the point. I found László Hudec Collection of letters and invoices from Hall & Holtz from 1924 to 1925:

http://contentdm.library.uvic.ca/cdm/search/searchterm/Hall%20&%20Holtz/field/all/mode/all/conn/and/order/nosort/page/1

Thanks to his collection those important documents survived till now and say something about Hall & Holtz company (please take a look on sample of one such of invoice from Hall & Holtz from June 1924 to Hudec).

On page 1 of this post. There are 2 pictures: Hall & Holtz company-A and Hall & Holtz company-B.
Actually, those are 2 different buildings. B one is main headquarters of Hall and Holtz in 1897 (probably 22nd June 1897-full date). On page 2 of this post on picture "D" it is mentioned that it was on Nanking Road 14 (take a look on original photo in attachment).

Now take a look on page 1 of this post, picture: Hall & Holtz company-A. This is former Hall & Holtz building from 1906. It was rebuilt I believe because it looks different now (picture: Second Hall & Holtz building on Nanking Road 114).
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2013, 05:05:52 AM »
I found very interested information about Hall & Holtz which I would like to share with you guys...

According to: "Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of China 1908" - edited by Arnold Wright, page number: 646, 648 and 651:

The business was started in 1848 by Mr. Hall, who was joined in 1854 by Mr. Holtz.
On 1 September 1883 company converted in to Hall & Holtz Co-operative Company (registered on 28th February 1886 under the Hongkong Ordinances
Hall & Holtz Co-operative Company liquidation in 1893, and reconstructed in Hall & Holtz Ltd.


It means that they opened business in 1848 but only Holtz was in Shanghai. 1854 is a date when Hall jointed him. The establishment date is also mentioned on copper bread tokens (ONE LOAF and ONE SMALL LOAF) - 1848.

However on one of invouce to László Hudec (famous Shanghai architect), the establishment date is 1843.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2013, 05:14:12 AM »
In "Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of China 1908" - edited by Arnold Wright. page number 430:

...it is mentioned about 2 fires which took a place in Hall & Holtz:

1) 26th November 1898,
2) 11th February 1904

However, in "The Straits Times" newspaper from 5th March 1914, Page 9:
"Shanghai Fire Appliances" - article title, is mentioned that the fire was on 17th February 1904:
http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19140305-1.2.64.aspx
So when was the second fire? On 11th or 17th Ferbruary? Which source is telling a truth?
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2013, 05:22:01 AM »
As you know or probably don't know. In Shanghai there was 4 "Old department stores":
1) Hall & Holtz,
2) Lane Crawford,
3) Whiteaway Laidlaw,
4) Weeks & Company.

There were all British and all foreigners were doing shopping there.

Then..."The Big Four Companies":
1) Wing On,
2) Sincere,
3) The Sun Sun,
4) The Sun

...established stores later in Shanghai and were dealing with Chinese customers. If I am not wrong Wing On company was the first one, which opened department store in Shanghai in 1917.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2013, 05:29:07 AM »
Speaking about employees working for Hall & Holtz I would like to mention a few which I discovered today.

One of them in Atanasio Taitano Perez, employed as a clerk by Hall and Holtz & Co, Hong Kong. Which means that Hall & Holtz has some representative office in HK. Perez was born in 1874 and in 1890 was working for the other company. The exactly date when he was working for Hall & Holtz is not mentioned but probably it was a short period of time.

link:
http://snowranch.zxq.net/tata.htm
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2013, 05:41:13 AM »
In the directory chronicle for China and Japan from 1894, page 124, I found a list of employees working for Hall & Holtz in Shanghai:

1) Allen, J.W., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
2) Bowness, S., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
3) Bryan, J.S., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
4) Byrne, E., manager, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
5) Carion, B., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
6) Carion, F.F., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
7) Cook, E., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
8) Colgan, E.J., assistant Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2013, 05:42:49 AM »
9) Deighton, J., assistant Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
10) Donaldson, C., assistant Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
11) Hayward, W., secretary, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
12) Jaques, A.H., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
13) Manning, H.C., tailor, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
14) Rangel, I.M., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
15) Remedios, S.B.dos, assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
16) Short, W.H., manager, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2013, 05:43:25 AM »
17) Tuck, Ed., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
18) Vine, W.J., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai,
19) Quick, J.C., assistant, Hall & Holtz, Shanghai.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2013, 05:59:07 AM »
Hall & Holtz was a retailer of such of good like this black fur felt top hat (photos: 1a, 1b and 1c):

http://www.rpvintage.com/main.asp?menu=viewItem&itemID=10MHA-399&gender=Mens&era=Accessories

The company was also a publisher or such of postcards like this Palace Hotel postcard from Shanghai:

http://www.stamps-auction.com/china-old-chinese-postcard-shanghai-statue-palace-hotel-for-sale-62449
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2013, 06:22:53 AM »
Remember when I posted list of employees working for Hall & Holtz in 1904 on page 2 and 3 of this post. Well, it seems that some employees were working there for 10 years since 1894:
Allen, I.W. (not sure is this is the same one because the one from 1894 has different middle name: Allen, J.W.)
Bowness, S. - the same one (1894 and 1904 listed)
Quick, Jno.C. (also I am not sure is it the same one, in 1894 is Quick, J.C.)
Rangel, I.M. - the same one (1894 and 1904 listed)
Remedios, S.B.dos - the same one (1894 and 1904 listed)
Tuck, E. - it could be the same person (in 1894 is listed Tuck, Ed.)
Vine, W.J. - - the same one (1894 and 1904 listed)
So at least 4 employees here were working loyally for Hall & Holtz from 1894 to 1904 (for 10 years).
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2013, 06:37:08 AM »
On page 3 of this post I posted that Hall & Holtz had branches also in Japan: Yokohama, Nagasaki and Kobe. George Gray was the person who established those branches. In Kobe the business was opened in 1871 but ceased temporarily.
In Nagasaki Hall & Holtz opened branch in 1863. In 1867 was working there J.A.Stewart, BUT I found information that he and his wife came to Japan in 1874, which means he could work there in 1867, unless he was there alone before...

- Mr. and Mrs. J. A. Stewart came to Japan in 1874 and got employed with W.Watson, Yokohama # 82. In 1875 this firm went bankrupt and it was taken over by Hall & Holtz, General Drapers, Yokohama Branch, Yokohama # 82, the headquarter was located in Shanghai. Both continued to work for this company in Yokohama until 1876.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2013, 07:53:37 AM »
It seems that one discovery accumulates other discovery :w00t:

It turned up that 2 employees working for Hall & Holtz in 1894 were working for the company 22 years,

1) Short, W. H.,
2) Skeels, H. J.,

In 1872 were both in Hall & Holtz. Short was a storekeeper and Skeels was a storekeeper. When time went by (in 1894), Short got a promotion to manager of the company and Skeels moved back to London but he was still working for Hall & Holtz.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #75 on: August 19, 2013, 07:58:29 AM »
Once again I found something in the article "The Coins of Shanghai" by A. M. Tracey Woodward.
I discovered that Woodward had seen this AU condition Half loaf with round hole and number 3391.
I don't think it was One loaf because as he mentioned very few Neil issued pieces were counterstamped.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #76 on: August 20, 2013, 04:08:06 AM »
Here is a list of Hall & Holtz staff in 1892. I found it in "The directory chronicle for China and Japan - 1892" on page 120.

All together there are 27 employees working for H&H on that time. 2 of them: E.Byrne and H.J.Skeels were in London agency.

Enjoy as always N25
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #77 on: August 20, 2013, 04:10:20 AM »
Here is a link where I found original photo of Hall & Holtz store on Nanking 14:

http://sikhsinshanghai.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/1897-image-sikh-in-shanghai/

Speaking about Hall & Holtz it is worth to mention László Hudec, who was an active figure in years 1918-1945 in Shanghai.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Hudec
http://thatsmags.com/shanghai/articles/12315
http://www.hudec.cn/

He designed such of buildings in Shanghai as: Normandie Apartment - 1924, Moore Memorial Church - 1931, Park Hotel Shanghai - 1934 or others (see photos in attachment).

But to the point. I found László Hudec Collection of letters and invoices from Hall & Holtz from 1924 to 1925:

http://contentdm.library.uvic.ca/cdm/search/searchterm/Hall%20&%20Holtz/field/all/mode/all/conn/and/order/nosort/page/1

Thanks to his collection those important documents survived till now and say something about Hall & Holtz company (please take a look on sample of one such of invoice from Hall & Holtz from June 1924 to Hudec).

On page 1 of this post. There are 2 pictures: Hall & Holtz company-A and Hall & Holtz company-B.
Actually, those are 2 different buildings. B one is main headquarters of Hall and Holtz in 1897 (probably 22nd June 1897-full date). On page 2 of this post on picture "D" it is mentioned that it was on Nanking Road 14 (take a look on original photo in attachment).

Now take a look on page 1 of this post, picture: Hall & Holtz company-A. This is former Hall & Holtz building from 1906. It was rebuilt I believe because it looks different now (picture: Second Hall & Holtz building on Nanking Road 114).
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #78 on: August 20, 2013, 04:34:21 AM »
A couple days ago I found also on this website:
http://mdcls.blogspot.com/2013/03/welcome-to-shanghai.html

this short nore about Hall & Holtz company:

"Hall & Holtz was a reputable British firm established in 1885 and specialising in general merchandise from across the globe. These, their Shanghai offices, opened in 1906 and claimed to be the first department store in the city. The fanciful five-storey building had residential apartments on the top three floors – complete with Juliet balconies – while the store operated out of the ground and first floors. Their wide range of millinery, clothing, haberdashery and other Western merchandise made them an instant hit with expatriate women and wealthy Chinese."

I also found Hall & Holtz advertisement in "The Chinese Times" newspaper on page 638 from 4th October 1890.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #79 on: August 20, 2013, 09:35:55 AM »
Interesting history!......If the wealthy shopped at their stores, why the bread tokens?   Were they for the poor or just a medium of exchange like coins......

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #80 on: August 20, 2013, 09:20:41 PM »
Dear pandamonium,

Bakery was their first business which they started in Shanghai. When the time went by their bakery became more and more famous and they had a lof of customers.

Then they had enough money to purchase in 1886 smaller bakery H.Evans & Co. Later they opened first department store in Shanghai and furniture factory, which produced and repaired furnitures.

They use bread tokens in their bakery, so when someone want to buy a bread, you had to first enter the store buy token from one person and go to another person to give him the token and that person will give you the bread.

Sometimes, someone bought few more tokens, so this time he will buy a few loaves and next time when he will come will buy another, so he doesn't have to buy tokens everytime when he comes to the store.
My point is that bread tokens never leave bakery, unless it was a situation which I mention above. I do not know the reason why they didn't use money directly.

Shanghai tokens can be divided on 3 cathegory: 1) before Japanese occupied Shanghai, 2) during Japanese occupation (1937-1945) and 3) after 1949-modern ones.

Hall & Holtz bread tokens belong to the first cathegory and they are all very rare and valuable.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2013, 05:39:49 AM »
Here is some short note which I found in: "Revisiting the psychic distance paradox: international retailing in China in the long run 1840-2005" by Andrew Godley and Haiming Hang, School of Management Henley Business School University of Reading UK, page 13

I also found on page 15 and 17 in the same source about 4 Big Companies created by overseas Chinese and their sales record till 1936.

As always enjoy it! :001_smile:
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2013, 06:26:35 AM »
In "Revisiting the psychic distance paradox: international retailing in China in the long run 1840-2005" by Andrew Godley and Haiming Hang, School of Management Henley Business School University of Reading UK, page 15 on table 1 we can see that the Sincere department store has five floors

BUT in "Spectacular post-colonial cities: markets, ideology and globalization in the making of Shanghai and Hong Kong by Ying-Fen Huang (1st Aug. 2008)" page 119, it mention that it was four-storey building.

The same case with the Wing On department store. In the first document written by by Andrew Godley and Haiming Hang it says six floors

BUT in the document written by Ying-Fen Huang from 1st Aug. 2008 it says that it was five-storey building

So it is confusing.

Finally The Sun department store opened in 1936 in the first document mentioned about ten floors and in the second document from 2008 it says it was 12-storey building.

You can also find here 3 small notes from the document written by Ying-Fen Huang about Hall & Holtz on page 118 (2 notes) and page 119 (1 note).
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #83 on: September 04, 2013, 06:09:00 AM »
I found some photos how the Hall & Holtz building looked like in 1897, 1906? and 2013. Previously I claimed that the building from 1897 is different from building from 1906 and 2013 (those 2 are the same building). Actually the buidling in 1897 could be the same as the one in 1906 and the one in 2013. I think that Hall & Holtz building from 1897 to 2013 was successfully rebuilt. The building in 1897 was located on Nanking rd 14. But that was in old times. Nanking road was the main road in Shanghai but not so big as nowadays, where we have west nanking rd and east nanking rd. and on Hall & Holtz building there is a plate 114. So there was 2 Hall & Holtz building? NO! in modern times Nanking rd extended, that's why in old Shanghai the building has number 14 and now it is number 114.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #84 on: September 04, 2013, 06:15:12 AM »
In Hall & Holtz was working also Charles McLeod Bain. This is mentioned in "Men of Shanghai and north China" from 1933 on page 16.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2013, 07:38:14 AM »
As you know or probably don't know. In Shanghai there was 4 "Old department stores":
1) Hall & Holtz,
2) Lane Crawford,
3) Whiteaway Laidlaw,
4) Weeks & Company.

There were all British and all foreigners were doing shopping there.

Then..."The Big Four Companies":
1) Wing On,
2) Sincere,
3) The Sun Sun,
4) The Sun

...established stores later in Shanghai and were dealing with Chinese customers. If I am not wrong Wing On company was the first one, which opened department store in Shanghai in 1917.

Wing On company opened their store in Shanghai on 5th September 1918 and Sincere on 20th October 1917---this is correct.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #86 on: October 07, 2014, 05:00:43 AM »
Hall & Holtz bread tokens never lose their inner beauty. The token from this picture speaks for itself...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2016, 05:16:41 AM »
In Shanghai Fire Department 1866-1916 Book I found photo of Hall & Holtz Ltd furniture factory and on the left side there is a sign "BAKERY". It is not so clear but clear enough to judge that there was a Hall & Holtz bakery and furniture factory on Soochow Road in the same building. On page 5 in this post I mentioned that there were two interviews with two managers of Hall & Holtz that there were old books which were destroyed in a fire some years ago. I am wondering was it a fire on 5th March 1914?
In other book where are listed all companies from old Shanghai where Hall & Holtz was located in several places. During years 1899-1901 one of the address of the company was 4 Cor. of Yuen Ming Yuen and Soochow Rds. I also found photo how the company looked like before or after fire. There is too much confusion in my head about when the old books about Hall & Holtz tokens were burned. Was it a fire in 1914 later. Howere this is indeed interesting information added to this post.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2018, 10:52:35 AM »
I think this is a very interesting and informative. Once I had that kind of coin,but came to my nephew and I lost it....  N24