Author Topic: 【F】《The Shanghai Mint — Ancient Towers medals》 Different versions  (Read 17577 times)

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Offline pandamonium

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RAREMEDAL, it has been posted that the silver pagodas are not popular in China.  The US buyers like this medal due to tiny mintage and quality.  Would you recommend the silver pagodas to be a good investment?..........

Offline badon

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See photo


中国早期图录标的重量是20克,成色90银,含纯银18克。外文纸片标:22.22克。结合多种早期资料以及金币总公司发行纪念章的图表资料,相比之下,我更倾向于20克是正确的。外文纸片很可能是误以为20克是含纯银量,换算成实际重量,标上了22.22克。不知道有没有藏家亲手过手过裸重22.22克的呢?也许真的有22.22克的版本,但我没有亲眼见过。(但不排除书籍图录有存在数据不准确的情况,因为已经发现了不少)

另外,对镀金镀银版本的古塔纪念章是否是上币铸造的问题,以及以图案是否细微缺损(如“台阶缺损”“背面曲线弱打或短缺”)来臆断其真假的问题。目前有发现16.1克版本的(有镜面喷砂效果,推断应该是先镀后压,铜镀银版。只见图片,未过手实物),还有的普通镀银版的称量裸重在15.52-15.78克左右的。我认为上海造币厂是铸造过镀金镀银版的,但这类镀金镀银版不是1984年铸造的原版,重量普遍在16克左右及以下(造币厂对非贵金属纪念章的重量公差控制得并不是十分严格)。类似情况如:金鱼章、十二生肖章等。NGC在评级封装时,不应该把这类后铸品种标称原铸版的年份,比如:镀金古塔铜章、镀金金鱼铜章,建议不要标“(1984)”。

 

我认为,“做工粗糙与否、是否有模具瑕疵”不能作为辨别币章真假的首要的要素,因为造币厂有些真品纪念章和硬币也是“比较粗糙”的,例如一些铜镀金纪念章和大规格金银币等,比如:

可参看我的文章:《指南针金银币“乙”字刻反问题》 http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6401.0

我个人的经验总结:
“没见过的不一定是假的”,当然,没见过的也不一定都是真的。造币厂纪念章、乃至金银币,同时有多个不同材质、不同工艺【个别纪念章有模具细微差异(缺损、加字等)、精镀金(先镀后压铸,有镜面喷砂效果)普镀金(先压铸后镀,镀金层覆盖细节图案,感觉粗糙)】、不同图案、不同直径、不同重量、细微修模等著微大小差异的情况很常见,十分复杂。辨别真假,应该以实物为本(非图片,但高清实拍照片也很重要),主要应从造币工艺本身来着手,这需要长年的积累经验和丰富的造币知识以及对造币艺术、时代风格的理解。而不能单单地靠“找不同”来臆断真假。比如我的博客中提到沈币“1981年鲁迅40mm铜章”、“1982年女排40mm铜章”、“1985沈币四十年40mm铜章”,这些铜章市面皆存在赝品,如果你仔细看,这些赝品的“制造工艺、过程”与真品是不同的,当然,破绽由此也会显现出来,如果不大了解造币技术或没有仔细研究过真品原件,辨伪是较困难的或结论不能令人信服。近年来仿造币章的技术不止有翻砂法翻模、电火花翻模,甚至有精度更高的电脑制浮雕图翻模等手段,造出的假币质量也越来越好,品种越来越多、速度越来越快,越来越难分辨,不止材质价值高的金银币常被仿冒,甚至有发现真品市价极便宜的小铜章也被仿冒了……但我们要始终坚持一个信念:“假的就是假的,必有破绽”,否则如果造假者的水平与造币厂造出的完全没有区别的话,那造假者完全可以自己开“造币厂”了。辨别早期币章真假,一定要综合各种要素,如:材质感觉(目测)、造币表面雕刻刀法质感、边齿、喷砂效果、压铸特点、细节差异、精确实际重量、直径和厚度、岁月痕迹、时代特点、包装证书等附件(参考)、整体视觉质感、可靠参照模本样品、各种历史书面资料、原始塑封和包装盒的气味(这一条是不是有点怪,哈哈,有用!)、金银的比重和早期常用造币黄铜(铜锌合金,合金中极少量金属暂不计)的比重,以及银铜之间的比重比率的计算等等。多多学习、仔细研究,才能去伪存真,避免把“真版别当赝品、把赝品当真版别”。







Can you print that in English?  How can I translate it to English?..................

If RAREMEDAL will give us permission to put his photos on the CC here:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5260.0

Then we can annotate the Chinese text with English translations. That way, you will have the images and the tranlations together. If RAREMEDAL posts his permission at the link above, anyone with an account on the CC can start uploading, annotating, and translating. It will be nice to have the Chinese text in the annotations too, so it will be searchable by Chinese language users.

Offline SANDAC

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I'm not sure what the "base-relief" technique is that RAREMEDAL mentioned. I suspect it is a 3D milled reproduction technique using the modern equivalent of a Janvier lathe that produces a 3D computer model of the coin with a point cloud from a device like the Faro arm, but much smaller and more accurate. I'm not aware of anything superior to sinker EDM that is accurate enough to reproduce a coin without forgery defects, so I would be interested to find out if there's something new I should learn.
I have very little technical knowledge in Chinese, so I can only translate them verbatim.
"electric spark molding" is a literal translation of 电火花翻模.  I believe the correct translation should be Electric Discharge Machining.
"computer-aided bas-relief molding" is a literal translation of 电脑制浮雕图翻模.  Another possible translation is computer-aided 3D lithography, but I just don't know.  Perhaps a more knowledgable forum member can help me with this.

Offline badon

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Ah, lithography, I hadn't considered that one. It would involve building up material to make a model of the coin instead of machining it away using EDM or some other technique. That process is detectable too, but it is so expensive and time consuming that it is probably not used very often. I don't know all of the lithography techniques, but all the ones I know of are very slow for objects the size of coins. Some of the best fakes ever made were claimed to have been produced using a sort of reverse lithography technique.

The good news is that all of those fakes are still detectable. The cost and difficulty is great enough that those techniques aren't used often, and when they get used, they can't be fully exploited on a large number of coins to reduce the per-coin cost without being noticed and drawing a lot of attention.

Still, detecting them is expensive and difficult too, so we as collectors need to pay attention to where coins are coming from so we can quarantine them in groups to make authentication easier, if they're fakes that are all originating from the same place that invested in an expensive forgery process.

Offline poconopenn

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电火花翻模: Electrical discharge machining (EDM), or spark machining, currently, used in auto and electronic industries for molding, usually is computer-aided. They are very expensive and counterfeiter can not afford it, unless the private mint inside China is involved in the counterfeit. In addition, the original coin will have to be destroyed, in order to make a negative mold.

电脑制浮雕图翻模: computer-aided bas-relief technology is known to make casting molding by artist, such as the attached picture of sculpture; Bas Relief of the Gods - Project Gutenberg – Parthenon.  It is good for large sculpture, such as large copper medals being produced inside China. I am not sure this technology can give very detailed design such as coin.

Offline SANDAC

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Thank you poconopenn.  I'm glad my technical translation is not too far off.

Offline badon

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电火花翻模: Electrical discharge machining (EDM), or spark machining, currently, used in auto and electronic industries for molding, usually is computer-aided. They are very expensive and counterfeiter can not afford it, unless the private mint inside China is involved in the counterfeit. In addition, the original coin will have to be destroyed, in order to make a negative mold.

电脑制浮雕图翻模: computer-aided bas-relief technology is known to make casting molding by artist, such as the attached picture of sculpture; Bas Relief of the Gods - Project Gutenberg – Parthenon.  It is good for large sculpture, such as large copper medals being produced inside China. I am not sure this technology can give very detailed design such as coin.

The reason why EDM isn't used on rare coins is because, like you said, you have to destroy a coin to make a die from it. Actually, to produce smooth mirror fields, you have to destroy several coins to make a die from them, so authenticators look for mismatched obverse and reverse dies, doubling, or non-smooth finishes.

Most of those hallmarks of forgery I found on the plated pagodas, and that is the primary reason why I thought they might be fake when I first saw them. I didn't give those details at the time to prevent new counterfeiters from learning that technique, so when people disagreed with me, I had to just let them assume I was not as expert as I actually am, or whatever.

For bas-relief sculptures, plaster is used. The particle size of plaster is too large to allow it to copy small details of coins accurately. Most mold materials with a small enough particle size cannot be removed from an object because it is too tight. There are other specialized mold materials that have both a small particle size, and will release from an object after the mold is made. Some of those mold materials involve lithography techniques.

A few of the mold materials will not damage a rare and valuable coin, but there is always risk. So, those techniques are still not often used even when there are no cheaper alternatives. In every case I know about where super fakes were made from genuine coins using those techniques, the forger was a dealer or collector who already owned the genuine coins. That made it easier to identify other fakes they had made that had been overlooked.

All of those techniques leave behind clues that reveal that a coin is fake. Things get more difficult when the mint itself is using forgery techniques to restrike its own coins, if we don't know for certain that the mint has done that. I did not know that for certain when I wrote my article about that possibility, but RAREMEDAL's expertise is sufficient to convince me that it is not a coincidence that he has described the exact same thing I hypothesized about in list #160.

Now that we know the mint probably used forgery techniques to restrike their coins, we can identify and characterize the dies they used, and we expert authenticators will have no problem distinguishing official mint-authorized internally-made "genuine forgeries" from unauthorized fakes.

Now I have to find the original brass pagodas struck with the original dies! Collecting is a never-ending process...

Offline SANDAC

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Embedded in RAREMEDAL's original post is a note (below the enlarged silver Pagoda) saying that while COA stated 260 set of silver Pagoda, based on his long time observation inside China and abroad that the actual number is greater than 260.  It is interesting to me what he didn't said.  He didn't say "much greater than 260", nor suggesting there are restrike, just "greater than 260".

I've been watching and plotting NGC population of silver Pagoda.  It has been stable for quite a while now, even with all the active discussion we are having.  The gilt population is rising and silver plated is now recognized, but the original silver Pagoda population is not changing for over 3 months.  I like to believe a high majority (>75%) of Pagoda that have access to NGC is now catalogged.  If RAREMEDAL can provide an estimate of silver Pagoda inside China, we may have a good estimate of the silver Pagoda population.


Offline badon

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Embedded in RAREMEDAL's original post is a note (below the enlarged silver Pagoda) saying that while COA stated 260 set of silver Pagoda, based on his long time observation inside China and abroad that the actual number is greater than 260.  It is interesting to me what he didn't said.  He didn't say "much greater than 260", nor suggesting there are restrike, just "greater than 260".

I've been watching and plotting NGC population of silver Pagoda.  It has been stable for quite a while now, even with all the active discussion we are having.  The gilt population is rising and silver plated is now recognized, but the original silver Pagoda population is not changing for over 3 months.  I like to believe a high majority (>75%) of Pagoda that have access to NGC is now catalogged.  If RAREMEDAL can provide an estimate of silver Pagoda inside China, we may have a good estimate of the silver Pagoda population.

You know, every time I think about this, I have to wonder if maybe all the pagodas people say they used to see were just from the normal buying and selling of a coin that was once unpopular? If the same 260 sets were bought and sold only 2 times each on average, that would be enough to ensure that would always be 1 or 2 sets available on the market every month for all 28 years since they were minted - with 520 total sales!

If we check the Coin Compendium's sales records, we might be able to find that same phenomenon of repeatedly recirculating coins, especially in the lower grades. One thing is certain, they are not as available now as they used to be! Collectors are holding them and not reselling them, especially if they have a 69 grade. Even the 68 grades are getting hard to find now.

Offline pandamonium

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NGC, Mr. Ge and Jay say the mintage of silver pagodas is 260 sets.  They all do reseach w/ help from the Chinese mints.  Can they all be wrong?  IF the pagoda mint numbers are wrong then how many other MCC mintage numbers are way off?  Right now I agree w/ 260.  I hope RAREMEDAL can bring forward more evidence.  Are there silver pagodas restrikes that may add to mintage numbers?  The plot thickens and silver pagodas are once again taking center stage.  I asked Coinworld to do an article on the 1984 silver pagodas due to all the debate and research.  They declined.  Can anyone else contact Coinworld to reconsider?  It has got to be one of the most interesting, emotional and at times hotly debated Chinese coins.   Silver pagodas continually make news.  My humble opinion is that any coin/medal that makes this much noise will eventually find its way to the top.  I am happy that i traded my 2003 silver pandas OMP for a set w/ box.  They are a gorgeous coin in hand.  One of my favorite MCC.  The wood mesh box is top notch.  Silver pagodas are one of the best to collect...........

Offline badon

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I agree with you 100% pandamonium, I love the pagodas as much as anyone. The pagodas have a huge advantage in being extensively researched, and well documented. We have tracked down a large fraction of the official mintage, and so far, there is no reason to doubt that the mintage was only 260. In fact, the data we have gathered so far makes a pretty convincing case for the possibility that less than half of the original mintage has survived. Not enough time has passed yet to be certain of that, but we are all gathering good, verifiable data that will eventually be hard to dispute without showing us more genuine coins.

A few coins have been credibly alleged to have had higher mintages than the official mintage, but those allegations are the exception, not the rule. For most coins, the actual mintage has been FAR LOWER than the official mintage, not higher. The few credible allegations for higher mintages are only for very popular coins, and even in those cases, most of the extra coins were very low mintage restrikes that are either known or suspected to be different from the originals, which makes them entirely different coins from a numismatic point of view, and potentially more valuable than the originals if we can identify them.

Nothing makes an investor more comfortable than having all the facts at his fingertips. We have done a good job of offering that for the pagodas. I can't think of ANY modern Chinese coin that has been so thoroughly researched and documented, down to each individual coin that is presently known to exist! So, for an investor, that makes it pretty easy to look at their price, their mintage, and their popularity, and then conclude that they are probably worth investing in.

The more we research the pagodas and goldfish, the more confident we become that they are indeed very rare, and very interesting, with lots of exciting little mysteries waiting to be discovered. Many of those little mysteries have so far been positive from an investment point of view. They indicate that there could be major varieties, restrikes, and in-house mint forgery of their own coins. How many other coins have so many bizarre events surrounding them? The history of the pagodas is what makes them interesting, and being interesting is what makes them popular. Popularity + rarity = higher prices!

But, let's not forget that there are other very rare, very affordable modern Chinese coins out there. Some of them could be just as interesting as the pagodas, and maybe even more interesting. We won't know until we diversify our collections and start researching them. It is never a good idea to put all your eggs in one basket. Even if that makes good investing sense, it could lead to you overlooking something else that might be as good or better. Not diversifying is the first pitfall of greed, and it has ruined many wealthy people throughout history.

I collect the pagodas for their artistry, history, and mystery. I invest in the pagodas for their rarity, popularity, and too-low price. I also have many other very nice coins too, and I can easily agree with anyone that has the same strategy for collecting and investing that I do :)

Offline pandamonium

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I agree so paid for a 1994 PF 69 proof silver panda.  Also the strange year 1984, won on ebay a silver high jumper OMP  w/ (10,000 planned mintage) for $44 includes mailing.  That year had 3 Olympic type coins including a lady volleyball player (4500 mint) matte (1000 mint and expensive w/ 3 stars from Mr Ge) and a speed skater (6000 mint).  It will be interesting to see what mintage really is.  Can't go wrong for $44. ....................

Offline dynamike51

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Can you print that in English?  How can I translate it to English?..................

Pandamonium:

Use this application. It does a decent job (for most languages) ...

http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/

Offline RAREMEDAL

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我想提个问题:各位喜欢古塔纪念章的外国朋友,你们一定见过所谓的“双密封”(即:有塑料盒并且有塑料封)的1984古塔纪念章,请问你们有没有见过上海造币厂在1990年之前生产的其它金银币或纪念章上有与你们见到的那种“双密封”古塔完全相同的花边的塑料封呢?!

就我所知,上海造币厂生产的金银铜币和金银铜纪念章,原始有的是没有塑料封,有的可能是当年被造币厂或经销商加了塑料封的。可以称为“真原封”的塑料封有两种:1.直边无花纹不规则塑封(多为三边热压封口,另一边是折叠的。这种塑封多不规则,有大有小,有长有短,有的封边有歪斜),如:1989年5盎司熊猫银币的原始塑料封、1984年香港国际币展熊猫银章的原始塑封;2.细斜纹(斜向窄长平行四边形均匀排列)封边塑封,如:1983年熊猫铜币原始塑封、1984、1985年熊猫银币的原始塑封等。

上海造币厂那种短粗块状倾斜排列斜纹封边塑封,直到1991年才有所使用。如:1991年熊猫5盎司银币、2盎司熊猫银币的原始真塑封。仔细对比一下,上海造币厂91年熊猫银币以及1991年以后上海造币厂的金银币的真原封与你们所见的“双密封”古塔纪念章的塑封是否完全相同。

这是不是一个值得思考的问题呢?!
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 08:59:09 PM by RAREMEDAL »
RAREMEDAL — Feng Jingjing sir. I come from He'nan of China.
I love chinese rare medals and golden and silver coins.
My E-mail:2209925761@qq.com
My blog:  http://blog.sina.com.cn/zhongyuanfeng555

Offline Hippanda

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我想提个问题:各位喜欢古塔纪念章的外国朋友,你们一定见过所谓的“双密封”(即:有塑料盒并且有塑料封)的1984古塔纪念章,请问你们有没有见过上海造币厂在1990年之前生产的其它金银币或纪念章上有与你们见到的那种“双密封”古塔完全相同的花边的塑料封呢?!


就我所知,上海造币厂生产的金银铜币和金银铜纪念章,原始有的是没有塑料封,有的可能是当年被造币厂或经销商加了塑料封的。可以称为“真原封”的塑料封有两种:1.直边无花纹不规则塑封(多为三边热压封口,另一边是折叠的。这种塑封多不规则,有大有小,有长有短,有的封边有歪斜),如:1989年5盎司熊猫银币的原始塑料封、1984年香港国际币展熊猫银章的原始塑封;2.细斜纹(斜向窄长平行四边形均匀排列)封边塑封,如:1983年熊猫铜币原始塑封、1984、1985年熊猫银币的原始塑封等。

上海造币厂那种短粗块状倾斜排列斜纹封边塑封,直到1991年才有所使用。如:1991年熊猫5盎司银币、2盎司熊猫银币的原始真塑封。仔细对比一下,上海造币厂91年熊猫银币以及1991年以后上海造币厂的金银币的真原封与你们所见的“双密封”古塔纪念章的塑封是否完全相同。

这是不是一个值得思考的问题呢?!

Absolutely - thank you for showing again the importance of OMP in providing clues !
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius