Author Topic: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?  (Read 21518 times)

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Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2012, 12:30:21 AM »
Peter, you answered half of my question. How about the other half? Why did the dealers choose to remain silent and anonymous? After all, they are the first hand source of information and had their own interests encroached on.

I completely agree. The hangup is that, from what I was told, the American dealer has been advised to remain silent for now. The German dealer has a separate issue that justifies respecting his privacy for the time being. I'm not happy with that answer, nor do I think this matter has been handled as openly as it could have been. If there is any legal action to come from this I hope it happens very soon so that more information is put into the public record.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
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Offline fwang2450

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2012, 12:55:05 AM »
Wow!  whoever wrote this "press release" sure know how to fling muds and end up splattered the reputation of Hosane and Zhaoonline in his zeal.  That was 18 paragraphs of rambling innuendos when a simple statement like "Hosane has examined the ownership document and deems it appropriate to auction the item.  Hosane does not own the coin, and Hosane respects the confidentiality of the consignors" would do.  Hopefully Hosane will back away from these statements in the next few days.
Why did Nick use that many words in the first place, rambling off to attack Zhao Online's business with the allegation of pumping up the price? It had nothing to do with this case. IMO, that corroborated the alleged threat in Hosane's press release.

There is a lot of information in that release. Now we know there was a German collector, in addition to the US and German dealers, and the "employee" of the German company who sold the coin was in fact a company executive. The whole story is taking on a new perspective. IMO, any additional information is welcome. If Hosane had offered a short statement, they might be accused of hiding details.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2012, 01:52:34 AM »
Here is my 2 cents

Between August 2010 and December 2010, the rare MCC market was up double digit monthly, while between later 2011 and earlier 2012 the market was down double digit monthly. US dealer had a contract to buy this coin from German company in later 2010. However, IMO, German company decided to back out the deal, due to a significant increase of value of this coin and told the US dealer that this coin was misplaced and could not be found. In earlier 2012, the German dealer decided to sell this coin before market went down further. IMO, by selling this coin to a Chinese collector, German company might believe that this coin would not show up in the market place for a very long time, therefore, the US dealer would not find out the coin was sold again by this German Company. IMO, as mentioned in my previous post, this coin was sold to a Chinese collector accidentally by an inexperience employee without the knowledge of Sr. Management of the German company as suggested by Nick is not creditable, since rare coin such as this one does not come easily by any coin dealer. The Zhao’s response indicates that the inexperience employee mentioned by Nick is actually the top manager of this German company.

I was surprised that both Nick and Zhao did not say bad thing about this German company. Perhaps, we really do not have the whole story, especially both Nick and Zhao are not claimed to be the owner of this coin. IMO, this is the fight for position of leadership and market share of rare MCC market. In this instant, both names are tainted.

Online pandamonium

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2012, 10:11:39 AM »
Bottom line is this: Who is the winner in all this?    The owner of the 5 oz rare gold coin............

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2012, 12:09:41 PM »
There has been some interesting development. I would say so far Hosane & Zhao are the winner. Why? Based on Hosane's long, detailed "press release", not only they defended themself on accusations made by Mr. Nick Brown from every angles, but also they "attacked" back by challenging Mr Brown on his own "terrible shill bidding story" (quoted from Hosane's PR), plus Hosane & Zhao got free advertising, their names are heard more in the Western world now, just my two cents...if the US dealers keep silent or unable to prove the legal ownership of the coin, then we all know who the real winner is.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2012, 12:29:13 PM »
Here is my 2 cents

Between August 2010 and December 2010, the rare MCC market was up double digit monthly, while between later 2011 and earlier 2012 the market was down double digit monthly. US dealer had a contract to buy this coin from German company in later 2010. However, IMO, German company decided to back out the deal, due to a significant increase of value of this coin and told the US dealer that this coin was misplaced and could not be found. In earlier 2012, the German dealer decided to sell this coin before market went down further. IMO, by selling this coin to a Chinese collector, German company might believe that this coin would not show up in the market place for a very long time, therefore, the US dealer would not find out the coin was sold again by this German Company. IMO, as mentioned in my previous post, this coin was sold to a Chinese collector accidentally by an inexperience employee without the knowledge of Sr. Management of the German company as suggested by Nick is not creditable, since rare coin such as this one does not come easily by any coin dealer. The Zhao’s response indicates that the inexperience employee mentioned by Nick is actually the top manager of this German company.

I was surprised that both Nick and Zhao did not say bad thing about this German company. Perhaps, we really do not have the whole story, especially both Nick and Zhao are not claimed to be the owner of this coin. IMO, this is the fight for position of leadership and market share of rare MCC market. In this instant, both names are tainted.

These are two great cents. We have heard so many stories from eBay sellers that a coin won was "missing" when the bidder had a "steal". It would be very interesting to know how much the US dealer paid the German company, and for how much the German company sold it later to the Chinese consignor.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2012, 02:24:40 PM »
I thought Hosane's press release is an embarrasing disaster.  Yes, they showed up at the debate, but they didn't present their side of the story with much coherency.  Their basic approach is disparaging the motives and credibilities of their critics instead of demonstrating their own innocence.  The last paragraph of the press release is embarrasingly ridiculous.  If this is how Hosane going to do the debate, they are better off not showing up.

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2012, 04:34:25 PM »
I thought Hosane did a fine job in their PR. It was long and detailed, provided "answers" to many of the question marks in everyone's mind. The two key elements of the whole incident are: 1) Did the US dealer have the legal ownership of the coin? 2)Did the auction house indeed purchase the coin 1st and auction it off for a huge profit as suggested by Nick? Hosane gave "No" to both of these two questions. Now, the "ball" has rolled over to the US dealer and Mr Brown's hands.   

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2012, 04:55:47 PM »
I thought Hosane did a fine job in their PR. It was long and detailed, provided "answers" to many of the question marks in everyone's mind. The two key elements of the whole incident are: 1) Did the US dealer have the legal ownership of the coin? 2)Did the auction house indeed purchase the coin 1st and auction it off for a huge profit as suggested by Nick? Hosane gave "No" to both of these two questions. Now, the "ball" has rolled over to the US dealer and Mr Brown's hands.  

I don't consider either of these questions to be the central issue here. For me the main point is, did Hosane have unchallenged title to a coin they sold? As  they reportedly knew a court challenge to their ownership of the coin was possible, or likely, I believe  the answer is no, they didn't have unchallenged rights to a coin in their auction. Hosane's response lays out why they think the coin was theirs, but to my mind that is not sufficient grounds for moving forward with the sale. My own expectation of any auction house is that it should be prudent enough to postpone a sale until all ownership issues are settled, in court if need be.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2012, 05:26:22 PM »
I don't consider either of these questions to be the central issue here. For me the main point is, did Hosane have unchallenged title to a coin they sold? As  they reportedly knew a court challenge to their ownership of the coin was possible, or likely, I believe  the answer is no, they didn't have unchallenged rights to a coin in their auction. Hosane's response lays out why they think the coin was theirs, but to my mind that is not sufficient grounds for moving forward with the sale. My own expectation of any auction house is that it should be prudent enough to postpone a sale until all ownership issues are settled, in court if need be.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

It really depends on what was the challenge to the title of the coin. If the challenge was based on an inventory list with no transaction records, as Hosane alleged, why would the auction be postponed?
Looking at the big picture, if the threat from the US dealer was not an invention by Hosane, the whole episode started by Nick can be interpreted in a different light, as a concrete step to carry out that threat to destroy Daniel Zhao and Hosane's reputation. If that is the purpose, facts are not important anymore, such as how come a coin worth hundreds of thousands of dollars could be missing, who was the employee who sold the coin to Hosane's consignor, why no transaction records were provided to Hosane to prove the title. As long as Hosane and Daniel's names are called into question and smeared, the mission is completed.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2012, 05:51:11 PM »
I sincerely hope that when all is said and done that the facts will all be public, and that no one will be smeared, but that everyone involved will be accountable for their actions. If policies and attitudes need to change then so be it. I expect that Nick Brown will agree with that sentiment, and I hope that the others who have roles in this tale will too.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2012, 06:11:25 PM »
I don't consider either of these questions to be the central issue here. For me the main point is, did Hosane have unchallenged title to a coin they sold? As  they reportedly knew a court challenge to their ownership of the coin was possible, or likely, I believe  the answer is no, they didn't have unchallenged rights to a coin in their auction. Hosane's response lays out why they think the coin was theirs, but to my mind that is not sufficient grounds for moving forward with the sale. My own expectation of any auction house is that it should be prudent enough to postpone a sale until all ownership issues are settled, in court if need be.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

I see your points. I still think those two questions are among the cental issues here. One addressed the legal ownership of the coin: the consignor not the US dealer, the other addressed the ethical issue brought up by Nick. If there is any ownership dispute on an auctioned item, the auction house should hold off the auction only if the "challenger" can prove the legal ownership of the item/or provide sufficient evidence or there is a court order or legal action pending. In this case, none of these was in existence. Hosane acknowledged the consignor's legal ownership of the coin, the US dealer failed to prove his legal ownership of the coin, therefore, Hosane decided to move forward with the sale. Was this legally wrong? IMO, no, there was no law violated. Was this ethically wrong? Yes or no. If you really believe the US dealer should have the right to own the coin, then it is "Yes". If you believe the consignor should have the right to sell, and the auction house has the right to conduct their business, then perhaps, it is a "no".   

Offline Kamil

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2012, 01:47:44 PM »
Well, both sides lack a bit of truth:
Nick is claiming zhaoonline is inflating prices and selling the same coins later again.
Next sentence questions the quality of coins sold online at that site.
So in conclusion, zhaoonline is selling flawed coins at ridiculous prices to themselves?
ORLY?
I mean, why do all the hazzle with describing the condition of the surface in every single auction if nobody would adjust the price according to the condition and in the end buying your own coin?

Hosanes statement is a bit wrong in the ebay part.
When the German company started selling on ebay in late fall 2011, the scarcer bigger gold coins never showed up, yet they appeared on zhaoonline later somehow.
That leads to the next mystery. In case the US dealer really was cherry picking the german collection, why not take these bigger gold coins? They were almost all problem free, some still OMP, some came in capsule only - but sold very well.
I can`t imagine anything else then that the german company was asking the US dealer too much for them - which means they knew the value of their stuff very well and wouldn`t quote a price to Zhao well below market value. (Only other case would be the US dealer being out of money, which would be bit hard to believe.)

All in all both sides are digging in the dirt in order to gain some market, trying to keep the other side of the world out of business. Bit late, bit dirty - but very entertaining. Can`t wait for the release of chapter 3, nachos and cheese anyone?  :thumbup:

btw: 2012 Bronze Works I news released
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 01:56:04 PM by Kamil »

Offline robertos

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Re: Daniel Zhao of Hosane Auctions controversy?
« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2013, 04:25:59 AM »
Many auction houses are owned by auctioneers who call their own sales but some are not. There are a number of auction houses who hire freelance auctioneers to call for them.