Author Topic: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals  (Read 18106 times)

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Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2012, 10:44:09 PM »
Also on a small side note: it is also confirmed that the pagoda boxes are all from dealers, and not from China Mint. Same goes for the CoA. It was kind of known for the CoA, as if you look at those it is clear that is made by a typewriter than print. Anyway, this is just a side fact, probably already discussed a bit, and known.

Underbidder

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2012, 10:50:01 PM »
Just because we already know the pagodas and goldfish are so closely related:

Do you think these are old, or newly made?  And the "coa"- why does it say "badges" made by our "factory?"      

 Factory??

And not "medals" ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shanghai-mint-1984-China-of-goldfish-Copper-plating-gold-chinese-coins-medal-/120955475338?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1c2982158a

And some evidently pay sums for these.

Huh.

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2012, 11:18:43 PM »
@Underbidder:

The certificate you are referring to is not even a certificate. It is just a notice, which you will find in many plated medals Chinese mints have produced. It merely states that new kind of products are being produced by the mint, and it has no relation to the product it comes with (gilt goldfish in this case).

This is completely different from the CoA that comes with a set, which typically includes weight, purity, dimension and mintage - but not always. An example of this is:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-1990-21g-goldfish-silver-medals-a-set-of-4-/370627078417

At times based on your posts, I wonder whether you are deliberately trying to stir up confusion, because I tend to believe you are not really so dumb. :-)

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2012, 11:19:59 PM »
I think "badge" is a mistranslation of "medal", or something along those lines. In English, the 2 words have similar meaning, depending on the context, so it was probably pulled out of an English-Chinese dictionary without understanding of the context.

As for "factory", my impression is that the idea of a "mint" being totally distinct from any other kind of mass production facility is a fairly new idea in China. For example, die striking of coins came about 2000 years later in China than in the rest of the world. Before that, pretty much everything made of metal was cast, so instead of using the word "mint", China uses the word "cast", which isn't especially distinct from other kinds of manufacturing.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2012, 11:21:23 PM »
At times based on your posts, I wonder whether you are deliberately trying to stir up confusion, because I tend to believe you are not really so dumb. :-)

Yes. Why else would he post so frequently about coins he doesn't like?

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2012, 11:23:03 PM »
Also on a small side note: it is also confirmed that the pagoda boxes are all from dealers, and not from China Mint. Same goes for the CoA. It was kind of known for the CoA, as if you look at those it is clear that is made by a typewriter than print. Anyway, this is just a side fact, probably already discussed a bit, and known.

I wrote this up as my opinion in one of my first articles about the pagodas. It's the one fact that opens more possibilities for the relationship between goldfish and pagodas.

Underbidder

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2012, 11:39:21 PM »
I li
Yes. Why else would he post so frequently about coins he doesn't like?

Au contraire-  I like 'em just fine- the only plated coins in my collection, s'matter o' fact. 

Underbidder

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2012, 11:58:14 PM »
@Underbidder:

The certificate you are referring to is not even a certificate. It is just a notice, which you will find in many plated medals Chinese mints have produced. It merely states that new kind of products are being produced by the mint, and it has no relation to the product it comes with (gilt goldfish in this case).

This is completely different from the CoA that comes with a set, which typically includes weight, purity, dimension and mintage - but not always. An example of this is:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-1990-21g-goldfish-silver-medals-a-set-of-4-/370627078417

At times based on your posts, I wonder whether you are deliberately trying to stir up confusion, because I tend to believe you are not really so dumb. :-)

Or, heaven forbid, might there be a third option you may be choosing to ignore? That's fine. KoolAide is kool. :tongue_smilie:

Offline poconopenn

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2012, 11:22:01 PM »
I am certain that the connected line on the reverse of Kaiyuan temple is a variety. I found someone trustworthy in China who bought four sets directly from China Mint himself in 1985, which has connected line. He sent two sets to NGC for grading earlier, but those got rejected as fake, and he was surprised. These also have frosting issues in some areas. May be I can try & provide some picture, as I have one such set in my hands.

So, I now do not believe that frosting issue on Pagoda coins automatically reject them as fakes. Similarly, connected line on the reverse of Kaiyuan is non-issue. Of course, if/when NGC recognizes that is a different question.

It also seems that it is harder to get a connected line Kaiyuan, than broken line. Likely there were only few minted during the end of production after the broken line fix.

Your trustworthy friend in China may not be so trustworthy. Even up to now, nobody can buy coin directly from China Mint, except licensed distributors. After 2001, the registered member of website of  China Gold Coin Inc. can buy directly (limited to one set only) via the website. In earlier years, all coins made by China Mint were exported to foreign countries. The only place that MCC could be bought inside China was in stores with license to sell goods to foreigner, such as "Friendly Store". The only Chinese currency used in those stores was "Foreign Exchange Currency" which specially issued to foreigner by Bank of China during 1979-1995 and Chinese citizen could not even enter those stores without in accompanied with a foreigner.   

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2012, 11:48:46 PM »
Your trustworthy friend in China may not be so trustworthy. Even up to now, nobody can buy coin directly from China Mint, except licensed distributors. After 2001, the registered member of website of  China Gold Coin Inc. can buy directly (limited to one set only) via the website. In earlier years, all coins made by China Mint were exported to foreign countries. The only place that MCC could be bought inside China was in stores with license to sell goods to foreigner, such as "Friendly Store". The only Chinese currency used in those stores was "Foreign Exchange Currency" which specially issued to foreigner by Bank of China during 1979-1995 and Chinese citizen could not even enter those stores without in accompanied with a foreigner.   

Thanks for the info, however, the person I am referring to is a licensed dealer in China - so I guess he gains back the trustworthiness ? :-)

Offline poconopenn

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2012, 12:09:22 AM »
Licensed dealer is not a licensed Mint distributor. I am very sure that your friend in China could not buy coin directly from China Mint in 1985. There was no mint distributor inside China in 1985. The only distributor was Bank of China in 1985. All stores to sell goods to foreigner were owned by Government (Bank of China).

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2012, 12:13:28 AM »
Licensed dealer is not a licensed Mint distributor. I am very sure that your friend in China could not buy coin directly from China Mint in 1985. There was no mint distributor inside China in 1985. The only distributor was Bank of China in 1985. All stores to sell goods to foreigner were owned by Government (Bank of China).

That is a strong statement, but I am not so sure how you are so sure. Anyway, there is no point arguing. You win. :-)

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2012, 01:48:30 AM »
That is a strong statement, but I am not so sure how you are so sure. Anyway, there is no point arguing. You win. :-)

Poconopenn is exactly correct on this. If you wanted to buy new coins within China in 1985 the only place they could be found was at the government-owned Friendship stores, and you needed special currency to purchase there. The Mint only did business with a couple of dozen official foreign distributors, never with other dealers or the public. As the Friendship stores were government owned and operated perhaps your friend acquired his medals there, but the stores were not the same thing as the China Mint itself.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2012, 02:17:57 AM »
Thank you Peter - I had a chat with him, and let's just say there are things that can happen in developing country, which are not expected to happen in developed countries. :-)

I rest my case, but also re-iterate that whatever I stated in earlier posts (about the medals) is the truth. Let's discount the discussion how these were obtained, as we are more interested in discussing about the medals, not the source.

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2012, 02:31:01 AM »
I found someone trustworthy in China who bought four sets directly from China Mint himself in 1985, which has connected line. He sent two sets to NGC for grading earlier, but those got rejected as fake...

So discount the sellers story,  there still is the issue of the pagodas being rejected as fakes ( your own words).
There is so much more to be learned, until anyone is certain about these. It may be that the solid lines are fake sterling, but real authentic plated.  Or fake plated, but that doesn't make as much sense. Thats why these may have, as you say, frosting issues too.  Poconopenn has a lot of wisdom IF you care to learn from him. Again, your choice as I see it... Learn from him now, or learn from him later.

:-)