Author Topic: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals  (Read 18132 times)

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Offline BoyBlueJay

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NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« on: July 18, 2012, 11:24:33 AM »
This morning I received an email from NGC regarding their position on the Pagoda medals.

Dear CCF members,


I have been asked to address the 1984 Pagoda medals and NGC's position on grading of these pieces. Our research in China has been concluded and we can now grade the following:


1984 Chinese Pagoda Medals


SILVER
SILVER PLATED BRASS
GILT BRASS
BRASS...(if you can find them)


Anyone who has questions or concerns about their Pagoda medals in our holders can submit them to us for an evaluation to our modern world dept. Soon, we will post on our website photos and full details of our findings.


Kind regards,
NGC modern world dept.

Underbidder

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NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2012, 11:51:54 AM »
This morning I received an email from NGC regarding their position on the Pagoda medals.

Dear CCF members,


I have been asked to address the 1984 Pagoda medals and NGC's position on grading of these pieces. Our research in China has been concluded and we can now grade the following:


1984 Chinese Pagoda Medals


SILVER
SILVER PLATED BRASS
GILT BRASS
BRASS...(if you can find them)


Anyone who has questions or concerns about their Pagoda medals in our holders can submit them to us for an evaluation to our modern world dept. Soon, we will post on our website photos and full details of our findings.


Kind regards,
NGC modern world dept.


Thank you for posting this BBJ...
It was obvious all along this was coming out.

I'm now expecting the right and appropriate apology from you, Badon.  



Ah, I won't hold my breath. ;)

Offline pandamonium

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NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2012, 01:41:10 PM »
I wonder what NGC meant by "anyone with questions or concerns....."  Why not come out and say graded pagodas are silver and not plate?  Guess we will find out the details when they post............

Offline shibaji

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NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2012, 02:23:27 PM »
I wonder what NGC meant by "anyone with questions or concerns....."  Why not come out and say graded pagodas are silver and not plate?  Guess we will find out the details when they post............

I do not think there were ever a concern about authenticity of graded ones. The confusion was about the other varieties of pagoda medals, just like goldfish. Graded pagodas are of course silver, and NGC so far did not recognize the silver plated ones as genuine, now they will. I do not think anyone here raises questions about already graded ones :-)

This announcement is not surprising at all. During 1980-1990 time frame, almost all official mint medals have 4 versions (silver, silver plated, gold gilt, brass/copper), including pagoda, goldfish, gods, scenery etc etc. NGC will eventually recognize them if/when there is enough push.

This announcement has only one important aspect as far as I can see (other than recognizing the varieties now), is that brass/copper version is now the rarest. Here is my finding based on availability in order of rarest first:

1. brass/copper
2. silver plated
3. silver
4. gold gilt

However, this is based on current market situation, and may change if more sellers come up with these.

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2012, 05:15:50 PM »
One doubt I want NGC to clarify is the authenticity of connected line version of Kaiyuan temple reverse. Are both connected and disconnected versions real and varieties, or is the connected line version fake ? I have very good source in China telling me connected line version is real, and he himself bought that version from China Mint back in 1984/85 time frame. Whereas, popular notion is that this connected line version is fake.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2012, 05:17:03 PM »
Pagodas: fake, common, real, rare, verifiable or otherwise... It is nice to see an open letter from a major grading company addressed to this forum as a whole.
Public community recognition is a welcomed treat. It will be neat to see what the official published response is.
 :001_cool:


Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2012, 05:19:32 PM »
Pagodas: fake, common, real, rare, verifiable or otherwise... It is nice to see an open letter from a major grading company addressed to this forum as a whole.
Public community recognition is a welcomed treat. It will be neat to see what the official published response is.
 :001_cool:



Of course! +100000000000000

Offline Panda Express

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2012, 06:40:56 PM »
I am relieved that we finally have resolution on this matter concerning the Pagoda Medals after all of the dedicated research from certain forum members to clarify the existence of varieties among these medals. This important information originated from our very own CCF members. The final published article on the NGC website in the coming days or weeks will just reassure our findings all along.  What some of the forum members called fakes are in fact "Real Varieties". Hopefully NGC can shed more light regarding mintage numbers of the varieties.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2012, 06:56:23 PM »
Personally, if I owned Pagodas, I'd rather have news that there is only one major version with a lower mintage and hope I owned it.  I believe all of the "varieties" if you want to call them that, move the Pagodas into the novelty area for me.  Having brass / copper, silver, silver plated, gold gilt, etc reminds me of the normal cheap crap you see come out of China.  I know many of you won't agree with this. This novelty factor is partially why I am not as big a fan of medals as offically minted coinage with a monetary value.  Badon will argue that the fiat value won't matter.  In the end that may be true, but while the currency is still being used it certainly does matter and discourages counterfiting and makes the initial minting of the coin more regulated and a big reason you don't find all these different metals being mixed and matched.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 07:04:22 PM by Obsidian »

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2012, 09:17:47 PM »
Personally, if I owned Pagodas, I'd rather have news that there is only one major version with a lower mintage and hope I owned it.  I believe all of the "varieties" if you want to call them that, move the Pagodas into the novelty area for me.  Having brass / copper, silver, silver plated, gold gilt, etc reminds me of the normal cheap crap you see come out of China.  I know many of you won't agree with this. This novelty factor is partially why I am not as big a fan of medals as offically minted coinage with a monetary value.  Badon will argue that the fiat value won't matter.  In the end that may be true, but while the currency is still being used it certainly does matter and discourages counterfiting and makes the initial minting of the coin more regulated and a big reason you don't find all these different metals being mixed and matched.

Nothing against those who own these medals and I honestly hope they appreciate in value for you but I pretty much have to agree with everything you have said on this obsidian ...

whats next ... a newly discovered pagoda/goldfish set made of wood?  :laugh: 

Wow I can only imagine how *spooned* that guy feels who dropped $25K on that set of pagodas or even those who dropped 10K ... OUCH  :scared:   

Offline Panda Express

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2012, 09:39:16 PM »
Personally, if I owned Pagodas, I'd rather have news that there is only one major version with a lower mintage and hope I owned it.  I believe all of the "varieties" if you want to call them that, move the Pagodas into the novelty area for me.  Having brass / copper, silver, silver plated, gold gilt, etc reminds me of the normal cheap crap you see come out of China.  I know many of you won't agree with this. This novelty factor is partially why I am not as big a fan of medals as offically minted coinage with a monetary value.  Badon will argue that the fiat value won't matter.  In the end that may be true, but while the currency is still being used it certainly does matter and discourages counterfiting and makes the initial minting of the coin more regulated and a big reason you don't find all these different metals being mixed and matched.

The anticipated news from NGC is certainly discouraging to say the least for Pagoda holders who bought these medals during the "Extensive Promotion" when they were first introduce to this forum. Categorically this latest news will probably keep the nominal value of all the varieties at depressed levels for quite some time until the estimated surviving populations for each variety comes into light as more information comes forward in the unforeseeable future. Even the China Mint does not have sufficient records of the official mintage figures on the other varieties.  Although I bought a solid Silver Pagoda PF 69 assembled set close to the bottom of the market, I for one have learned a valuable lesson to this fiasco.  Just go with your gut instinct after proper research and due diligence when making a sizable purchase in investing in Chinese numismatics instead of being encourage by "Hype". I certainly carry the same sentiments as Obsidian just mentioned. I will just hold on to my set and maybe in my lifetime see a sizable appreciation for me to sell otherwise I will just past this over to my son.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2012, 09:50:46 PM »
The broken line on the Kaiyuen is probably a variety.  Collectors have paid $25k and $10k for pagoda sets, as I have talked to them.  The Chinese market may not favor medals but do not forget the US buyers.  Word is out to US coin collectors/dealers that Chinese coins bring a premium.  My two local bullion/coin shops (about 1 1/2 hr & 2 1/2 hr drive) in this rural area are hanging onto every Chinese coin.  They do not laugh about me collecting Chinese anymore.  The US buyers want low mintage first and not culture.  Several US owners of pagodas have no intention of selling as they predict prices to go higher than previously.  I think many US buyers are eyeballing the MCC market but have not purchased yet, thats alot of buyers and $.  Most silver pagoda supply is gone or too expensive.  PF 69 UC sold on ebay last month for about $1100.  Asking price now is $2199 UC and one PF 69 Cameo for about $1600.  PF 67 UC sold for $489 over a month ago and one on ebay asking $1299.  Pagodas sell now before they list on ebay.  Wasn't like that 2 months ago because of the fake graded pagoda issue.  (Maybe that pesky shibaji is buying them all!) NGC will clear up the issues.  The US demand (without China) can jump pagoda prices.  Let NGC have their say then let the market determine demand for the silver pagodas.  My 2 cents say they are headed back up in price.  Very low mintage and very hard to find any graded silver pagodas for sale at today's prices. ............................

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2012, 10:19:05 PM »
 :drool:

Personally, if I owned Pagodas, I'd rather have news that there is only one major version with a lower mintage and hope I owned it.  I believe all of the "varieties" if you want to call them that, move the Pagodas into the novelty area for me.  Having brass / copper, silver, silver plated, gold gilt, etc reminds me of the normal cheap crap you see come out of China.  I know many of you won't agree with this. This novelty factor is partially why I am not as big a fan of medals as offically minted coinage with a monetary value.  Badon will argue that the fiat value won't matter.  In the end that may be true, but while the currency is still being used it certainly does matter and discourages counterfiting and makes the initial minting of the coin more regulated and a big reason you don't find all these different metals being mixed and matched.

Nothing against those who own these medals and I honestly hope they appreciate in value for you but I pretty much have to agree with everything you have said on this obsidian ...

whats next ... a newly discovered pagoda/goldfish set made of wood?  :laugh:  

Wow I can only imagine how *spooned* that guy feels who dropped $25K on that set of pagodas or even those who dropped 10K ... OUCH  :scared:  
 

The anticipated news from NGC is certainly discouraging to say the least for Pagoda holders who bought these medals during the "Extensive Promotion" when they were first introduce to this forum. Categorically this latest news will probably keep the nominal value of all the varieties at depressed levels for quite some time until the estimated surviving populations for each variety comes into light as more information comes forward in the unforeseeable future. Even the China Mint does not have sufficient records of the official mintage figures on the other varieties.  Although I bought a solid Silver Pagoda PF 69 assembled set close to the bottom of the market, I for one have learned a valuable lesson to this fiasco.  Just go with your gut instinct after proper research and due diligence when making a sizable purchase in investing in Chinese numismatics instead of being encourage by "Hype". I certainly carry the same sentiments as Obsidian just mentioned. I will just hold on to my set and maybe in my lifetime see a sizable appreciation for me to sell otherwise I will just past this over to my son.




Great comments guys.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2012, 10:56:52 PM »
I would also like to add that I have nothing against those that like them.  And as far as value I certainly can't see the future and much of the controversy about them on this forum may be what drives their recognition, popularity and likely value.  It's not a gamble I will personally make however those that bought them at more reasonable price levels likely have little to worry about.  And if prices ever do get back to anywhere near where they hit at the peak that is great news for all owners of CMCs because it means pretty much all of our coins will have appreciated nicely.  That's a win win so I hope it comes true.  In the mean time it is a good lesson for all of us to be careful of hype.  Coins that have a long track record of consistent pricing are usually safer then the hottest new thing.  That's why I like gold and silver (less) pandas myself.  Slow and steady sometimes wins the race.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2012, 09:08:42 AM »
Slow and steady does win the race.  The controversy over the pagodas has brought a great deal of attention.  Many US buyers (and others)that want low mintage have kept track of the pagodas.  They are in the limelight and that should help prices for them.  As they rise so will all MCC and the price rise is starting very slow but should gain ground over the next few weeks.  The finacial wizards are now saying the US cannot get out from debt and this will be apparent to sheeple by Sept.  No doubt that precious metals will break out like MCC will.  Timing is always the question.  Notice the upcoming food shortages?  I am back to buying cases of food.  What will go up first?  Food or MCC?  I am changing my mind from pagodas to food supplies.  Better to protect your home and assets then be out on the streets looking for resouces and supplies.  Food supplies will take center stage and bump aside precious metals.  Hope I am wrong............

Offline catfury

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2012, 03:02:18 PM »
I have said this before, and now I say this again -- Medals are not coins, especially in China. All mints (and private companies) can mint medals freely as they wish. You should treat medals just like designed pieces made of metal (precious). Mintage ? The mint can just mint 1 for you, does it make it a million dollar piece?

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2012, 03:09:40 PM »
I have said this before, and now I say this again -- Medals are not coins, especially in China. All mints (and private companies) can mint medals freely as they wish. You should treat medals just like designed pieces made of metal (precious). Mintage ? The mint can just mint 1 for you, does it make it a million dollar piece?

Why is this relevant in current discussion ? If you have made your point earlier, please move on, we got it. No need to beat it to death. Everyone here can "think" - do not try & spoon feed. If you are unhappy with medals, go any buy loads of coins with denominations. Move on!

Offline davidt3251

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2012, 08:37:11 PM »
Wow I can only imagine how *spooned* that guy feels who dropped $25K on that set of pagodas or even those who dropped 10K ... OUCH



Is $25k alot of money to you?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2012, 09:24:26 PM »
This morning I received an email from NGC regarding their position on the Pagoda medals.

Dear CCF members,


I have been asked to address the 1984 Pagoda medals and NGC's position on grading of these pieces. Our research in China has been concluded and we can now grade the following:


1984 Chinese Pagoda Medals


SILVER
SILVER PLATED BRASS
GILT BRASS
BRASS...(if you can find them)


Anyone who has questions or concerns about their Pagoda medals in our holders can submit them to us for an evaluation to our modern world dept. Soon, we will post on our website photos and full details of our findings.


Kind regards,
NGC modern world dept.

I wonder what NGC meant by "anyone with questions or concerns....."  Why not come out and say graded pagodas are silver and not plate?  Guess we will find out the details when they post............

I will encurage the owner of graded set to submit to NGC for re-evaluation. IMO, there were counterfeit silver or silver plated sets graded by NGC, since NGC had admitted that some coins were weighed about 20 gm. The genuine silver medal weighs 22.2 gm, while genuine silver plated medal weighs about 16 gm. In case the set is misgraded, NGC has to compensate your cost, if you can provide the purchase invoice.   


Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2012, 09:36:21 PM »
NGC graded pagoda which were 20g as opposed to 22.2 grams, are marked as such. See this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-CHINA-ANCIIENT-PAGODA-MEDAL-20g-SILVER-PROOF-NGC-PF68-69-/390381877704

Offline poconopenn

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2012, 09:48:40 PM »
NGC graded pagoda which were 20g as opposed to 22.2 grams, are marked as such. See this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-CHINA-ANCIIENT-PAGODA-MEDAL-20g-SILVER-PROOF-NGC-PF68-69-/390381877704

Please re-visit the following thread in this forum, email from NGC to member of this forum.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2618.795


Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2012, 10:36:46 PM »
Please re-visit the following thread in this forum, email from NGC to member of this forum.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2618.795



Interesting. So, it is still unclear, and S20G can be silver plated or 90% silver, and so is the 22.22 gram ones ? Or, is it safe to assume 22.22 grams is always 90% silver, but 20 gram ones are silver plated ? In their last stance, NGC just says they will recognize all of silver/silver plated/gold gilt/brass, but which one is which one in the silver versions is still unclear!

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2012, 10:40:14 PM »
Wow I can only imagine how *spooned* that guy feels who dropped $25K on that set of pagodas or even those who dropped 10K ... OUCH



Is $25k alot of money to you?

Not necessarily, in fact compared with my income/assets it’s actually insignificant but that doesn’t mean I want to throw it away … anyone with a brain would not want to squander $25,000 Mr. Moneybags  :laugh: 

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2012, 10:42:53 PM »
Not necessarily, in fact compared with my income/assets it’s actually insignificant but that doesn’t mean I want to throw it away … anyone with a brain would not want to squander $25,000 Mr. Moneybags  :laugh: 

Oooh! 25K is a LOT of money for me :-) I can use some right now - any generous donor around ?

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2012, 11:28:26 PM »
LOL guys... Funny stuff


Now, how 'bout we recognize Poconopenn's wise recommendation to have their Pagodas reinspected by NGC.... Just in case?
There has been a lot learned in the past few months.

Thanks again to Poconopenn for being the one to point this all out many months ago, at least. And thanks to BBJ and Panda Express.
And to those of us who have been ridiculed or worse for our persistence in discovering the truth. No FUD or whatever was EVER involved.
Yes, some vindication has been achieved.

Now how about we come together again, and move forward to further cleaning up the mysteries of the Pagodas ( and Goldfish) ?


Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2012, 11:32:44 PM »
LOL guys... Funny stuff


Now, how 'bout we recognize Poconopenn's wise recommendation to have their Pagodas reinspected by NGC.... Just in case?


Sure, as long as poconopenn pays for mine :-) - I am 100% certain about the authenticity of the ones I have, as I have purchased those recently - after all these confusion were well known to NCS/NGC, and these got graded afterwards.

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2012, 11:39:29 PM »
Glad to year that,  Shibaji.




Offline pandamonium

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2012, 11:57:11 PM »
I was told graded pagodas are real silver and not plate.  There was surprise that anyone would even think that NGC would do that.  (we all know mistakes are made) One of NGC's priorities is accuracy w/ grading.  So they spend accordingly for the best equipment to test coins for content.  I know this has been a long delay but a simple statement is coming that will explain it.  I keep prodding the NGC rep to put on a statement, maybe too much.  His answers will convince all, so until then................keep buying pagodas!........

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2012, 12:04:09 AM »
so until then................keep buying pagodas!........

Sure - if I get some in reasonable price. I am sure people here who are holding PF69s want to get rid of them since those are probably silver plated ones. Here is your chance - sell me some :-D

Offline davidt3251

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2012, 12:23:25 AM »
Re: Not necessarily" You're lying. :001_tongue:


And youre spooning comments reveal your fetish. Spooning coins. WOW. How unique! We'll keep that in mind next time you put up that 1994P panda for trade. Just make sure to disclose where its been.  :laugh:

Not that NCS could fix remove the liquids you apparently expose your coins to. :w00t:
 

Anyway, one track mind missed the whole point. My average cost basis for PFUC 69 Pagodas is a little over $1500 each, across multiple sets. Not $10,000 per set and not $25,000 per set.

So PFUC 69 Pagodas with ACB under $2,000 was a perfect return on investment for me.

But some people here cant see the forest for the trees. Thats great.

So go back to your porno blog with your spooning


Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2012, 12:27:46 AM »
"So PFUC 69 Pagodas with ACB under $2,000 was a perfect return on investment for me."

What is ACB ?

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2012, 12:29:10 AM »
Re: Not necessarily" You're lying. :001_tongue:


And youre spooning comments reveal your fetish. Spooning coins. WOW. How unique! We'll keep that in mind next time you put up that 1994P panda for trade. Just make sure to disclose where its been.  :laugh:

Not that NCS could fix remove the liquids you apparently expose your coins to. :w00t:
 

Anyway, one track mind missed the whole point. My average cost basis for PFUC 69 Pagodas is a little over $1500 each, across multiple sets. Not $10,000 per set and not $25,000 per set.

So PFUC 69 Pagodas with ACB under $2,000 was a perfect return on investment for me.

But some people here cant see the forest for the trees. Thats great.

So go back to your porno blog with your spooning



You so totally miss Comeaux's wit, I fear.  Maybe a loss of translation into Canuck?
In any event, I assure you, Comeaux "gets it", he probably has no trouble with your misinterpretation, he is solidly practical, and I think you evidently missed his subtle intent.

Hint: get unclean porno out of your mind, and perhaps consider puns instead. 

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2012, 12:54:05 AM »
PS-
am happy to hear you bought low.    ;)

Offline Panda Express

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2012, 03:46:00 AM »
"So PFUC 69 Pagodas with ACB under $2,000 was a perfect return on investment for me."

What is ACB ?

ACB is an abbreviation for average cost basis which is a simple means of averaging the capital gain or loss of an investment.  This term is mainly used in securities such as stocks and ETF's; however, this can be easily used for any investment including our favorite Pagodas.  Just look at the recent sales of PFUC 69 pagodas and you can average in the ACB.  :001_smile:

Here's a link for an ACB calculator:  http://www.stockrants.com/average-cost-calculator

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2012, 03:47:53 AM »
@Panda Express - Thank you! :-)

Offline bonke

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2012, 10:02:01 AM »
Several years ago, I purchased two pagoda sets, weighed them (22.2 grams per medal) and sent them to NGC for authentication, grading and slabbing.  When my order was returned, the slabs indicated a weight of S20g.  Immediately, I understood.  The gross weight was 22.4 grams.  The net silver weight was 20 grams.  This was consistent with NGC's labels for my US and World gold/silver coins.  NGC shows the actual gold or silver weight of the coin or medal on the label.  This is very helpful for collectors and investors.

I have never purchased silver-plated, gold-plated or copper pagoda medals and do not know the weight of these varieties.

Mark Bonke 

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2012, 10:19:57 AM »
Wow bud … calm down, seems I struck a nerve with your anger management issues. You asked a question and I answered it. No need to blow your top troll. I don’t usually feed the trolls but every now and then I do respond appropriately to unprovoked attacks.
 
Quote from: davidt3251
Re: Not necessarily" You're lying.
Just because you flip burgers for a living or sale shoes, you should not assume that everyone else does. The acquisition of WH Energy by Smith International in 2008 has created a situation for me where it is “less significant” I should say maybe not “insignificant”. Sorry if you can’t wrap that around your shoe salesman mentality but the oil business has been very lucrative for me, now go back to selling your shoes.   :001_tongue: 

Quote from: davidt3251
We'll keep that in mind next time you put up that 1994P panda for trade. Just make sure to disclose where it’s been. Not that NCS could fix remove the liquids you apparently expose your coins to.
Nothing at all wrong with that coin and it has been nowhere except to NGC and back PF69UC. It’s more than I can say for the cheap pieces of clad coins your hoarding.  :thumbup:


Quote from: davidt3251
Anyway, one track mind missed the whole point. My average cost basis for PFUC 69 Pagodas is a little over $1500 each, across multiple sets. Not $10,000 per set and not $25,000 per set.
I never said that YOU paid $25,000 for a set. You’re not only defensive but a very delusional troll as well.  

Quote from: davidt3251
So go back to your porno blog with your spooning
I actually picked that phrase up from another collectibles forum … definitely not porno but it shows where your mind is and where it’s been. It’s not your fault, it’s your morals and apparently how you were raised.  :(
 
So what I have derived from your defensive, accusatory and cantankerous post is that you are either a lonely, pathetic old man playing on the community computer at a local old folks home because someone has knocked over your checkerboard or you are just a punky teenage troll playing on your mom’s computer past your bedtime. I on the other hand have a beautiful wife and child, would not need or want to waste my time on the porno sites that you apparently frequent far too often and unlike you find that type of activity to be unfitting for family entertainment.

Now go ahead and flame away at me from your home in the basement … I’m done with you troll.  :laugh:

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2012, 05:25:01 AM »
Hey everyone, let's keep the discussions friendly, and especially family-friendly. Forum rage is very much like road rage. It starts out with everyone assuming they've been insulted somehow, and it goes downhill from there. When meeting face to face, people tend to behave much more like friends than enemies, so lets pretend we're all talking face to face :)

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2012, 02:25:39 PM »
Badon thanks for addressing this.

I’m in agreement that we need to keep the forum “family friendly” as my wife was aghast after reading the unprovoked attack on me and more specifically the connotations to pornographic websites.

My wife reads here often to gain more knowledge of MCC that we have collected for our son and even after she reread all of the post in this thread was perplexed how anything I posted instigated such an intense and viscous attack.

I would hope that when my son is of age to read that he as well can participate here at CCF but if pornography is going to be associated in any manner then I will have to refrain from his participation here.

I apologize to the forum for disrupting this thread (which has been very informative) with my response but I do not and will not take lightly to allegations of pornography on an open forum when my family (and employees) read here as well so I felt it necessary to defend such serious allegations. 

Thanks for addressing this and again I do apologize again for my response which may have offended any other CCF members.

Back to the very interesting discussion of these mysterious Pagoda medals !   

Offline pandamonium

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2012, 03:13:32 PM »
A little controversy and spice is OK w/ me.  Life marches on..............

Offline davidt3251

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2012, 07:18:59 PM »
It is truly regrettable this exchange took place but you know what the Devil's Dictionary says about what it means to apologize.

APOLOGIZE, v.i. To lay the foundation for a future offence.

http://www.thedevilsdictionary.com/?A


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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2012, 08:26:22 PM »
An apology doesn't preclude then "a future offense"? and neither does failing to make an appropriate apology when wrong.

The difference is:  one action shows maturity and social grace.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2012, 08:40:25 PM »
I don't know, I think davidt3251's humor gently defused the tense atmosphere that was starting to develop. If that isn't social grace, then I guess I'll settle for innocent bumbling.

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2012, 10:10:39 PM »
I am certain that the connected line on the reverse of Kaiyuan temple is a variety. I found someone trustworthy in China who bought four sets directly from China Mint himself in 1985, which has connected line. He sent two sets to NGC for grading earlier, but those got rejected as fake, and he was surprised. These also have frosting issues in some areas. May be I can try & provide some picture, as I have one such set in my hands.

So, I now do not believe that frosting issue on Pagoda coins automatically reject them as fakes. Similarly, connected line on the reverse of Kaiyuan is non-issue. Of course, if/when NGC recognizes that is a different question.

It also seems that it is harder to get a connected line Kaiyuan, than broken line. Likely there were only few minted during the end of production after the broken line fix.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2012, 10:31:17 PM »
Photos would be interesting to see.

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2012, 10:44:09 PM »
Also on a small side note: it is also confirmed that the pagoda boxes are all from dealers, and not from China Mint. Same goes for the CoA. It was kind of known for the CoA, as if you look at those it is clear that is made by a typewriter than print. Anyway, this is just a side fact, probably already discussed a bit, and known.

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2012, 10:50:01 PM »
Just because we already know the pagodas and goldfish are so closely related:

Do you think these are old, or newly made?  And the "coa"- why does it say "badges" made by our "factory?"      

 Factory??

And not "medals" ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shanghai-mint-1984-China-of-goldfish-Copper-plating-gold-chinese-coins-medal-/120955475338?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1c2982158a

And some evidently pay sums for these.

Huh.

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2012, 11:18:43 PM »
@Underbidder:

The certificate you are referring to is not even a certificate. It is just a notice, which you will find in many plated medals Chinese mints have produced. It merely states that new kind of products are being produced by the mint, and it has no relation to the product it comes with (gilt goldfish in this case).

This is completely different from the CoA that comes with a set, which typically includes weight, purity, dimension and mintage - but not always. An example of this is:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-1990-21g-goldfish-silver-medals-a-set-of-4-/370627078417

At times based on your posts, I wonder whether you are deliberately trying to stir up confusion, because I tend to believe you are not really so dumb. :-)

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2012, 11:19:59 PM »
I think "badge" is a mistranslation of "medal", or something along those lines. In English, the 2 words have similar meaning, depending on the context, so it was probably pulled out of an English-Chinese dictionary without understanding of the context.

As for "factory", my impression is that the idea of a "mint" being totally distinct from any other kind of mass production facility is a fairly new idea in China. For example, die striking of coins came about 2000 years later in China than in the rest of the world. Before that, pretty much everything made of metal was cast, so instead of using the word "mint", China uses the word "cast", which isn't especially distinct from other kinds of manufacturing.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2012, 11:21:23 PM »
At times based on your posts, I wonder whether you are deliberately trying to stir up confusion, because I tend to believe you are not really so dumb. :-)

Yes. Why else would he post so frequently about coins he doesn't like?

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2012, 11:23:03 PM »
Also on a small side note: it is also confirmed that the pagoda boxes are all from dealers, and not from China Mint. Same goes for the CoA. It was kind of known for the CoA, as if you look at those it is clear that is made by a typewriter than print. Anyway, this is just a side fact, probably already discussed a bit, and known.

I wrote this up as my opinion in one of my first articles about the pagodas. It's the one fact that opens more possibilities for the relationship between goldfish and pagodas.

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2012, 11:39:21 PM »
I li
Yes. Why else would he post so frequently about coins he doesn't like?

Au contraire-  I like 'em just fine- the only plated coins in my collection, s'matter o' fact. 

Underbidder

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2012, 11:58:14 PM »
@Underbidder:

The certificate you are referring to is not even a certificate. It is just a notice, which you will find in many plated medals Chinese mints have produced. It merely states that new kind of products are being produced by the mint, and it has no relation to the product it comes with (gilt goldfish in this case).

This is completely different from the CoA that comes with a set, which typically includes weight, purity, dimension and mintage - but not always. An example of this is:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-1990-21g-goldfish-silver-medals-a-set-of-4-/370627078417

At times based on your posts, I wonder whether you are deliberately trying to stir up confusion, because I tend to believe you are not really so dumb. :-)

Or, heaven forbid, might there be a third option you may be choosing to ignore? That's fine. KoolAide is kool. :tongue_smilie:

Offline poconopenn

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2012, 11:22:01 PM »
I am certain that the connected line on the reverse of Kaiyuan temple is a variety. I found someone trustworthy in China who bought four sets directly from China Mint himself in 1985, which has connected line. He sent two sets to NGC for grading earlier, but those got rejected as fake, and he was surprised. These also have frosting issues in some areas. May be I can try & provide some picture, as I have one such set in my hands.

So, I now do not believe that frosting issue on Pagoda coins automatically reject them as fakes. Similarly, connected line on the reverse of Kaiyuan is non-issue. Of course, if/when NGC recognizes that is a different question.

It also seems that it is harder to get a connected line Kaiyuan, than broken line. Likely there were only few minted during the end of production after the broken line fix.

Your trustworthy friend in China may not be so trustworthy. Even up to now, nobody can buy coin directly from China Mint, except licensed distributors. After 2001, the registered member of website of  China Gold Coin Inc. can buy directly (limited to one set only) via the website. In earlier years, all coins made by China Mint were exported to foreign countries. The only place that MCC could be bought inside China was in stores with license to sell goods to foreigner, such as "Friendly Store". The only Chinese currency used in those stores was "Foreign Exchange Currency" which specially issued to foreigner by Bank of China during 1979-1995 and Chinese citizen could not even enter those stores without in accompanied with a foreigner.   

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2012, 11:48:46 PM »
Your trustworthy friend in China may not be so trustworthy. Even up to now, nobody can buy coin directly from China Mint, except licensed distributors. After 2001, the registered member of website of  China Gold Coin Inc. can buy directly (limited to one set only) via the website. In earlier years, all coins made by China Mint were exported to foreign countries. The only place that MCC could be bought inside China was in stores with license to sell goods to foreigner, such as "Friendly Store". The only Chinese currency used in those stores was "Foreign Exchange Currency" which specially issued to foreigner by Bank of China during 1979-1995 and Chinese citizen could not even enter those stores without in accompanied with a foreigner.   

Thanks for the info, however, the person I am referring to is a licensed dealer in China - so I guess he gains back the trustworthiness ? :-)

Offline poconopenn

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2012, 12:09:22 AM »
Licensed dealer is not a licensed Mint distributor. I am very sure that your friend in China could not buy coin directly from China Mint in 1985. There was no mint distributor inside China in 1985. The only distributor was Bank of China in 1985. All stores to sell goods to foreigner were owned by Government (Bank of China).

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2012, 12:13:28 AM »
Licensed dealer is not a licensed Mint distributor. I am very sure that your friend in China could not buy coin directly from China Mint in 1985. There was no mint distributor inside China in 1985. The only distributor was Bank of China in 1985. All stores to sell goods to foreigner were owned by Government (Bank of China).

That is a strong statement, but I am not so sure how you are so sure. Anyway, there is no point arguing. You win. :-)

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2012, 01:48:30 AM »
That is a strong statement, but I am not so sure how you are so sure. Anyway, there is no point arguing. You win. :-)

Poconopenn is exactly correct on this. If you wanted to buy new coins within China in 1985 the only place they could be found was at the government-owned Friendship stores, and you needed special currency to purchase there. The Mint only did business with a couple of dozen official foreign distributors, never with other dealers or the public. As the Friendship stores were government owned and operated perhaps your friend acquired his medals there, but the stores were not the same thing as the China Mint itself.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2012, 02:17:57 AM »
Thank you Peter - I had a chat with him, and let's just say there are things that can happen in developing country, which are not expected to happen in developed countries. :-)

I rest my case, but also re-iterate that whatever I stated in earlier posts (about the medals) is the truth. Let's discount the discussion how these were obtained, as we are more interested in discussing about the medals, not the source.

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2012, 02:31:01 AM »
I found someone trustworthy in China who bought four sets directly from China Mint himself in 1985, which has connected line. He sent two sets to NGC for grading earlier, but those got rejected as fake...

So discount the sellers story,  there still is the issue of the pagodas being rejected as fakes ( your own words).
There is so much more to be learned, until anyone is certain about these. It may be that the solid lines are fake sterling, but real authentic plated.  Or fake plated, but that doesn't make as much sense. Thats why these may have, as you say, frosting issues too.  Poconopenn has a lot of wisdom IF you care to learn from him. Again, your choice as I see it... Learn from him now, or learn from him later.

:-)

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2012, 02:37:22 AM »
So discount the sellers story,  there still is the issue of the pagodas being rejected as fakes ( your own words).
There is so much more to be learned, until anyone is certain about these. It may be that the solid lines are fake sterling, but real authentic plated.  Or fake plated, but that doesn't make as much sense. Thats why these may have, as you say, frosting issues too.  Poconopenn has a lot of wisdom IF you care to learn from him. Again, your choice as I see it... Learn from him now, or learn from him later.

:-)

Why don't you stop the gibberish and do something better for a change ? I am done replying to you.

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2012, 02:40:53 AM »
And none too soon.


I like you, but I have bad taste.

:-)

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2012, 02:49:03 AM »
Thank you Peter - I had a chat with him, and let's just say there are things that can happen in developing country, which are not expected to happen in developed countries. :-)

I rest my case, but also re-iterate that whatever I stated in earlier posts (about the medals) is the truth. Let's discount the discussion how these were obtained, as we are more interested in discussing about the medals, not the source.

Well, since you put it like that, yes I know of coins that were obtained through back channels. The big caveat here is that I also know of coins that came from a source of that nature that turned out to be of questionable authenticity. It was a very expensive experience for the buyer, too.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline pandamonium

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2012, 09:29:27 PM »
I asked NGC how many of the 260 pagodas sets have survivied.  They will get back to me.  NGC turned away many pagodas sets as specimen incorrect (or something like that). Now that the research on the pagodas is about done, they are willing to grade the sets they turned away.  If your set was returned earlier then send it for grading.........................

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2012, 02:57:34 PM »
I see NGC just added Gilt brass pagoda to their census report.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2012, 03:29:52 PM »
All these talks about Pagoda have not drive up the population much.  Come on folks!  Give me a "P"...


Offline pandamonium

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2012, 06:56:43 PM »
PEE!...Looks like Badon may be right at about 100 sets left out of 260 minted............................

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2012, 11:20:10 PM »
I have heard some rumors that there are dealers sitting on a few ungraded pagodas. I didn't hear anything about how many there were, though. I heard another rumor that there are Americans and/or Europeans who were buying them up a few months ago before the supply was depleted. I have heard some random unreliable rumors that said most of the graded pagodas on the market were being bought by one of the wealthy American collectors. Another rumor said that dealers were once again withdrawing their ungraded pagodas from the market. That usually happens when they expect price increases. Sometimes they expect price increases when too many people in a week call them asking for a particular coin.

The only thing I'm sure of is there are probably a few ungraded pagodas still out there. Some of the dealers I talked to seemed to be skeptical about my wild guess that there might be about 100 surviving sets, but so far, none of the rumors indicate that there could be the 36 additional sets out there that are required to reach 100 known sets.

I did hear one rumor that said whoever had ungraded sets was not willing to send them in for grading, due to people making assumptions about the mintage based on the ngc population. That rumor came from a reliable source, but the rumor didn't say whether it was talking about 1 set or more than 1 set.

That's all I know, for now. Thanks to SANDAC, we have some reliable numbers that seem to lean towards there being fewer pagodas out there, or at least a stabilizing population of them.

One interesting thing I found using the CC is that there have only been 27 different specimens sold publicly on eBay. Of those, CC5706 was sold twice. That means most of the known sets are either trading privately, or they're locked up in collections, which somewhat agrees with the rumors.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 11:21:33 AM by snowball »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2012, 01:35:31 AM »
My thought process was that there are so much controversies about the authenticity of Pagodas and at $1000 per coin, owners of the ungraded Pagoda should be motivated to send them to NGC/PCGS.  The population should therefore represent the majority of the surviving Pagoda.  The historical chart also shows the population of the individual coins are in tight bundle and run parallel to each others over time.  That means the coins are submitted as a set, and there are very few (or none) instances of crack-out-of-slab-and-resubmit.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2012, 01:59:22 AM »
The historical chart also shows the population of the individual coins are in tight bundle and run parallel to each others over time.  That means the coins are submitted as a set, and there are very few (or none) instances of crack-out-of-slab-and-resubmit.

Very insightful. I'm ashamed to admit that I hadn't thought of that. When you spell it out for me, it's obvious. Excellent research, and excellent conclusions, SANDAC. I know of a few coins that were sent back in for grading, but I don't think any of those were cracked out of the slabs, so they don't affect the population numbers.

I have heard rumors of people buying up lower grade pagodas in the hope of scoring a 69 when they get resubmitted. I have seen a few pagodas with lower grades that look like they could easily get a 69 if resubmitted. One of them was a 66! It was in pristine condition, except for very unattractive toning that NCS can easily remove. I resubmitted a few pagodas myself, and I got better grades each time I tried it. That's one way to put together a 69 set when there are no 69's available on the market anymore. For about $25 to $50 in grading fees, shipping, etc you can double the value of the coin if you get a 69 out of a lower grade.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2012, 02:05:42 PM »
Please do not spread the rumors (5 rumors in a single posting) while writing investment recomendation for the same coin.  This is not an acceptable practice in my book, especially from moderator/admininstrator of this forum.  There was enough damage done by you in the past by claiming all plated pagoda medals were fake.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 11:19:49 AM by snowball »

Online sasushi

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2012, 02:12:33 PM »
I think same was said about plated goldfishes....we all do our guesses (or wishes) on topics that haven t had a lot of research ...

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #72 on: August 07, 2012, 03:43:48 PM »
Please do not spread the rumors (5 rumors in a single posting) while writing investment recomendation for the same coin.  This is not an acceptable practice in my book, especially from moderator/admininstrator of this forum.  There was enough damage done by you in the past by claiming all plated pagoda medals were fake.

I'm sharing the information I have. I only claimed all the plated pagodas I have seen in person were fake, and I was right. That information saved people a lot of money that they might have lost by investing in a coin that wasn't what they expected it to be. That's not damage.

As much information as I publish in a week, it's inevitable that somebody somewhere is going to be unhappy with it. But, overall, I think the information is well-received because it is useful and reliable. The fact that you have to dig so deep to find one post of mine that could possibly be construed as an error is a testament to the quality of the information I provide. I've written thousands of posts during the last several years...

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2012, 03:45:05 PM »
Please do not spread the rumors (5 rumors in a single posting) while writing investment recomendation for the same coin.  This is not an acceptable practice in my book, especially from moderator/admininstrator of this forum.  There was enough damage done by you in the past by claiming all plated pagoda medals were fake.

Can we have an "Amen" ?

Offline MrOrganic

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2012, 12:57:29 AM »
THANK YOU POCONOPENN
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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2012, 02:49:36 AM »
Please do not spread the rumors (5 rumors in a single posting) while writing investment recomendation for the same coin.  This is not an acceptable practice in my book, especially from moderator/admininstrator of this forum.  There was enough damage done by you in the past by claiming all plated pagoda medals were fake.
THANK YOU POCONOPENN

I think ya gotta forgive Badon once in a while for that-

I suspect he does it when he's intoxicated, tired, and/or bored, instead of for financial gain.    






;)










« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 03:06:49 AM by Underbidder »

Offline pandamonium

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2012, 10:14:35 AM »
Intoxicated?  Thats an old insult.  Get w/ the program, the new insult is "have you renewed your medical mary jane card?"  See, it works much better.  Back to pagodas.  Bottom line is the low mintage and surviving population (supply and demand).  IF the Chinese do not like pagodas then it is not that big of an issue.  Why?  The US and World buyers want pagodas. Those that own them will not sell unless it is a huge offer they cannot refuse.  So they are in strong hands.  Rare US coins are moving up too so many collectors/dealers have cash to spend.  The average citizen, sheeple, is also buying Chinese coins as others on the forum have stated.  MCC are getting popular real quick w/ a large population of US buyers as they read about the potential gains.  The one silver MCC that has made alot of attention is the pagoda.  Like it or not, the buyers are coming out and there are only so many silver pagodas.  There are only so many MCC too.  Exciting market to be a part of............

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2012, 10:56:50 AM »
pandamonium makes a good point,

I saw & met MANY more MCC buyers, collectors, investors at the A.N.A than a year 1/2 ago when it was raging!
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Long Beach Expo
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GO TO my Ebay Click: http://stores.ebay.com/worldcollectibles310

EMERGING MARKET GROUP

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美国收藏家 – 收藏中国现代金银

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Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2012, 01:00:02 PM »
Boybluejay put up a set of gilt brass Pagoda on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/150875500386?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1426.l2649
 Not the highest of grades, but I'm interested to see how high they will go for.  BTW, none of the lines are broken on the reverse side.

Has anyone heard any news (or even rumors) about the plated vs solid silver Pagoda?  That's the real bone of contention in this forum.  NGC's latest population report is silent on that matter.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2012, 02:12:25 PM »
At this point NGC says the silver plate pagodas are rarely seen. Does anyone have photos of a plate set?  Any out there?  My guess is the US buyers will want pandas too.  When I stop to think of all the potential buyers................

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2012, 10:35:52 PM »
A three-day auction on Pagoda by a new seller.  The starting bid is $1500 but no one is bidding on it so far.  Thoughts?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-Rare-set-of-4-China-22-g-Ancient-Pagoda-Silver-Medals-RARE-MINT-/120966992622?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1c2a31d2ee

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2012, 10:55:21 PM »
My thoughts:            Plated.


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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2012, 11:56:23 PM »
A three-day auction on Pagoda by a new seller.  The starting bid is $1500 but no one is bidding on it so far.  Thoughts?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-Rare-set-of-4-China-22-g-Ancient-Pagoda-Silver-Medals-RARE-MINT-/120966992622?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1c2a31d2ee

I know some people don't like to hear rumors, but here's another rumor :)

This set appears familiar to me. I seem to recall being asked for an opinion about its authenticity in the recent past. As always, caution is advised when dealing with uncertified coins because it's not possible to be 100% sure until it has an NGC authenticity guarantee. But with that said, I think these pagoda coins are probably genuine. I better not say more than that without permission. If the people involved are reading this, they are certainly welcome to add their input as long as it doesn't reveal anything that's expected to be private.

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #83 on: August 15, 2012, 12:06:11 AM »
That's not a rumor-

That's only a half of a rumor- that's a "demirumor"...a "rumorette"... a "rumorini"....Nobody should get upset with only an incomplete rumor like that.  

Good job.         :thumbup1:
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 12:13:34 AM by Underbidder »

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2012, 02:23:31 AM »
Looks like a lot of white spots or haze on the coins.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2012, 02:54:20 AM »
Yes, haze. I don't see any white spots. Most of them had that haze, and NCS has had no trouble removing it, if they decide to conserve the coins.

Offline juliebin

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2012, 10:56:25 AM »
I'm the one asked Badon's opinion on the authenticity of this pagoda set from the same seller. It was a BIN sale on ebay a couple of weeks ago. After I questioned the seller the authenticity of the set and requested more detail pictures, instead of providing me more information, the seller canceled the transaction, saying that "We've decided to pull the item at this moment, we might re-list after getting authenticity certificate" and "If we do decide to have it certified and relist, we will definitely give you first shot."
After seeing the same seller relisted the item, I did message them to see whether they conclude their authenticity research, but never heard from them.
Regardless whether the set is genuine or not, I'd like to deal with a seller with better integrity and sincerity.

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2012, 12:33:13 PM »
@juliebin - thanks for sharing.