Author Topic: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals  (Read 21180 times)

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Offline BoyBlueJay

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NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« on: July 18, 2012, 11:24:33 AM »
This morning I received an email from NGC regarding their position on the Pagoda medals.

Dear CCF members,


I have been asked to address the 1984 Pagoda medals and NGC's position on grading of these pieces. Our research in China has been concluded and we can now grade the following:


1984 Chinese Pagoda Medals


SILVER
SILVER PLATED BRASS
GILT BRASS
BRASS...(if you can find them)


Anyone who has questions or concerns about their Pagoda medals in our holders can submit them to us for an evaluation to our modern world dept. Soon, we will post on our website photos and full details of our findings.


Kind regards,
NGC modern world dept.

Underbidder

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NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2012, 11:51:54 AM »
This morning I received an email from NGC regarding their position on the Pagoda medals.

Dear CCF members,


I have been asked to address the 1984 Pagoda medals and NGC's position on grading of these pieces. Our research in China has been concluded and we can now grade the following:


1984 Chinese Pagoda Medals


SILVER
SILVER PLATED BRASS
GILT BRASS
BRASS...(if you can find them)


Anyone who has questions or concerns about their Pagoda medals in our holders can submit them to us for an evaluation to our modern world dept. Soon, we will post on our website photos and full details of our findings.


Kind regards,
NGC modern world dept.


Thank you for posting this BBJ...
It was obvious all along this was coming out.

I'm now expecting the right and appropriate apology from you, Badon.  



Ah, I won't hold my breath. ;)

Online pandamonium

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NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2012, 01:41:10 PM »
I wonder what NGC meant by "anyone with questions or concerns....."  Why not come out and say graded pagodas are silver and not plate?  Guess we will find out the details when they post............

Offline shibaji

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NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2012, 02:23:27 PM »
I wonder what NGC meant by "anyone with questions or concerns....."  Why not come out and say graded pagodas are silver and not plate?  Guess we will find out the details when they post............

I do not think there were ever a concern about authenticity of graded ones. The confusion was about the other varieties of pagoda medals, just like goldfish. Graded pagodas are of course silver, and NGC so far did not recognize the silver plated ones as genuine, now they will. I do not think anyone here raises questions about already graded ones :-)

This announcement is not surprising at all. During 1980-1990 time frame, almost all official mint medals have 4 versions (silver, silver plated, gold gilt, brass/copper), including pagoda, goldfish, gods, scenery etc etc. NGC will eventually recognize them if/when there is enough push.

This announcement has only one important aspect as far as I can see (other than recognizing the varieties now), is that brass/copper version is now the rarest. Here is my finding based on availability in order of rarest first:

1. brass/copper
2. silver plated
3. silver
4. gold gilt

However, this is based on current market situation, and may change if more sellers come up with these.

Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2012, 05:15:50 PM »
One doubt I want NGC to clarify is the authenticity of connected line version of Kaiyuan temple reverse. Are both connected and disconnected versions real and varieties, or is the connected line version fake ? I have very good source in China telling me connected line version is real, and he himself bought that version from China Mint back in 1984/85 time frame. Whereas, popular notion is that this connected line version is fake.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2012, 05:17:03 PM »
Pagodas: fake, common, real, rare, verifiable or otherwise... It is nice to see an open letter from a major grading company addressed to this forum as a whole.
Public community recognition is a welcomed treat. It will be neat to see what the official published response is.
 :001_cool:


Offline shibaji

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2012, 05:19:32 PM »
Pagodas: fake, common, real, rare, verifiable or otherwise... It is nice to see an open letter from a major grading company addressed to this forum as a whole.
Public community recognition is a welcomed treat. It will be neat to see what the official published response is.
 :001_cool:



Of course! +100000000000000

Offline Panda Express

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2012, 06:40:56 PM »
I am relieved that we finally have resolution on this matter concerning the Pagoda Medals after all of the dedicated research from certain forum members to clarify the existence of varieties among these medals. This important information originated from our very own CCF members. The final published article on the NGC website in the coming days or weeks will just reassure our findings all along.  What some of the forum members called fakes are in fact "Real Varieties". Hopefully NGC can shed more light regarding mintage numbers of the varieties.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2012, 06:56:23 PM »
Personally, if I owned Pagodas, I'd rather have news that there is only one major version with a lower mintage and hope I owned it.  I believe all of the "varieties" if you want to call them that, move the Pagodas into the novelty area for me.  Having brass / copper, silver, silver plated, gold gilt, etc reminds me of the normal cheap crap you see come out of China.  I know many of you won't agree with this. This novelty factor is partially why I am not as big a fan of medals as offically minted coinage with a monetary value.  Badon will argue that the fiat value won't matter.  In the end that may be true, but while the currency is still being used it certainly does matter and discourages counterfiting and makes the initial minting of the coin more regulated and a big reason you don't find all these different metals being mixed and matched.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 07:04:22 PM by Obsidian »

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2012, 09:17:47 PM »
Personally, if I owned Pagodas, I'd rather have news that there is only one major version with a lower mintage and hope I owned it.  I believe all of the "varieties" if you want to call them that, move the Pagodas into the novelty area for me.  Having brass / copper, silver, silver plated, gold gilt, etc reminds me of the normal cheap crap you see come out of China.  I know many of you won't agree with this. This novelty factor is partially why I am not as big a fan of medals as offically minted coinage with a monetary value.  Badon will argue that the fiat value won't matter.  In the end that may be true, but while the currency is still being used it certainly does matter and discourages counterfiting and makes the initial minting of the coin more regulated and a big reason you don't find all these different metals being mixed and matched.

Nothing against those who own these medals and I honestly hope they appreciate in value for you but I pretty much have to agree with everything you have said on this obsidian ...

whats next ... a newly discovered pagoda/goldfish set made of wood?  :laugh: 

Wow I can only imagine how *spooned* that guy feels who dropped $25K on that set of pagodas or even those who dropped 10K ... OUCH  :scared:   

Offline Panda Express

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2012, 09:39:16 PM »
Personally, if I owned Pagodas, I'd rather have news that there is only one major version with a lower mintage and hope I owned it.  I believe all of the "varieties" if you want to call them that, move the Pagodas into the novelty area for me.  Having brass / copper, silver, silver plated, gold gilt, etc reminds me of the normal cheap crap you see come out of China.  I know many of you won't agree with this. This novelty factor is partially why I am not as big a fan of medals as offically minted coinage with a monetary value.  Badon will argue that the fiat value won't matter.  In the end that may be true, but while the currency is still being used it certainly does matter and discourages counterfiting and makes the initial minting of the coin more regulated and a big reason you don't find all these different metals being mixed and matched.

The anticipated news from NGC is certainly discouraging to say the least for Pagoda holders who bought these medals during the "Extensive Promotion" when they were first introduce to this forum. Categorically this latest news will probably keep the nominal value of all the varieties at depressed levels for quite some time until the estimated surviving populations for each variety comes into light as more information comes forward in the unforeseeable future. Even the China Mint does not have sufficient records of the official mintage figures on the other varieties.  Although I bought a solid Silver Pagoda PF 69 assembled set close to the bottom of the market, I for one have learned a valuable lesson to this fiasco.  Just go with your gut instinct after proper research and due diligence when making a sizable purchase in investing in Chinese numismatics instead of being encourage by "Hype". I certainly carry the same sentiments as Obsidian just mentioned. I will just hold on to my set and maybe in my lifetime see a sizable appreciation for me to sell otherwise I will just past this over to my son.

Online pandamonium

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2012, 09:50:46 PM »
The broken line on the Kaiyuen is probably a variety.  Collectors have paid $25k and $10k for pagoda sets, as I have talked to them.  The Chinese market may not favor medals but do not forget the US buyers.  Word is out to US coin collectors/dealers that Chinese coins bring a premium.  My two local bullion/coin shops (about 1 1/2 hr & 2 1/2 hr drive) in this rural area are hanging onto every Chinese coin.  They do not laugh about me collecting Chinese anymore.  The US buyers want low mintage first and not culture.  Several US owners of pagodas have no intention of selling as they predict prices to go higher than previously.  I think many US buyers are eyeballing the MCC market but have not purchased yet, thats alot of buyers and $.  Most silver pagoda supply is gone or too expensive.  PF 69 UC sold on ebay last month for about $1100.  Asking price now is $2199 UC and one PF 69 Cameo for about $1600.  PF 67 UC sold for $489 over a month ago and one on ebay asking $1299.  Pagodas sell now before they list on ebay.  Wasn't like that 2 months ago because of the fake graded pagoda issue.  (Maybe that pesky shibaji is buying them all!) NGC will clear up the issues.  The US demand (without China) can jump pagoda prices.  Let NGC have their say then let the market determine demand for the silver pagodas.  My 2 cents say they are headed back up in price.  Very low mintage and very hard to find any graded silver pagodas for sale at today's prices. ............................

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2012, 10:19:05 PM »
 :drool:

Personally, if I owned Pagodas, I'd rather have news that there is only one major version with a lower mintage and hope I owned it.  I believe all of the "varieties" if you want to call them that, move the Pagodas into the novelty area for me.  Having brass / copper, silver, silver plated, gold gilt, etc reminds me of the normal cheap crap you see come out of China.  I know many of you won't agree with this. This novelty factor is partially why I am not as big a fan of medals as offically minted coinage with a monetary value.  Badon will argue that the fiat value won't matter.  In the end that may be true, but while the currency is still being used it certainly does matter and discourages counterfiting and makes the initial minting of the coin more regulated and a big reason you don't find all these different metals being mixed and matched.

Nothing against those who own these medals and I honestly hope they appreciate in value for you but I pretty much have to agree with everything you have said on this obsidian ...

whats next ... a newly discovered pagoda/goldfish set made of wood?  :laugh:  

Wow I can only imagine how *spooned* that guy feels who dropped $25K on that set of pagodas or even those who dropped 10K ... OUCH  :scared:  
 

The anticipated news from NGC is certainly discouraging to say the least for Pagoda holders who bought these medals during the "Extensive Promotion" when they were first introduce to this forum. Categorically this latest news will probably keep the nominal value of all the varieties at depressed levels for quite some time until the estimated surviving populations for each variety comes into light as more information comes forward in the unforeseeable future. Even the China Mint does not have sufficient records of the official mintage figures on the other varieties.  Although I bought a solid Silver Pagoda PF 69 assembled set close to the bottom of the market, I for one have learned a valuable lesson to this fiasco.  Just go with your gut instinct after proper research and due diligence when making a sizable purchase in investing in Chinese numismatics instead of being encourage by "Hype". I certainly carry the same sentiments as Obsidian just mentioned. I will just hold on to my set and maybe in my lifetime see a sizable appreciation for me to sell otherwise I will just past this over to my son.




Great comments guys.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2012, 10:56:52 PM »
I would also like to add that I have nothing against those that like them.  And as far as value I certainly can't see the future and much of the controversy about them on this forum may be what drives their recognition, popularity and likely value.  It's not a gamble I will personally make however those that bought them at more reasonable price levels likely have little to worry about.  And if prices ever do get back to anywhere near where they hit at the peak that is great news for all owners of CMCs because it means pretty much all of our coins will have appreciated nicely.  That's a win win so I hope it comes true.  In the mean time it is a good lesson for all of us to be careful of hype.  Coins that have a long track record of consistent pricing are usually safer then the hottest new thing.  That's why I like gold and silver (less) pandas myself.  Slow and steady sometimes wins the race.

Online pandamonium

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Re: NGC Response Regarding The Authentication Of Pagoda Medals
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2012, 09:08:42 AM »
Slow and steady does win the race.  The controversy over the pagodas has brought a great deal of attention.  Many US buyers (and others)that want low mintage have kept track of the pagodas.  They are in the limelight and that should help prices for them.  As they rise so will all MCC and the price rise is starting very slow but should gain ground over the next few weeks.  The finacial wizards are now saying the US cannot get out from debt and this will be apparent to sheeple by Sept.  No doubt that precious metals will break out like MCC will.  Timing is always the question.  Notice the upcoming food shortages?  I am back to buying cases of food.  What will go up first?  Food or MCC?  I am changing my mind from pagodas to food supplies.  Better to protect your home and assets then be out on the streets looking for resouces and supplies.  Food supplies will take center stage and bump aside precious metals.  Hope I am wrong............