Author Topic: What is the difference between a MS 69 MATTE and a PF 69 MATTE  (Read 3058 times)

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Offline sasushi

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Offline badon

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Re: What is the difference between a MS 69 MATTE and a PF 69 MATTE
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2012, 12:28:42 AM »
PF = Proof
MS = Not proof

Offline sasushi

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Re: What is the difference between a MS 69 MATTE and a PF 69 MATTE
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2012, 12:51:25 AM »
So there are two matte (mintage 1000) versions one is
 proof and the others are not ..
Is Proof PF and BU then MS? I thought PF and BU is how they were made...


Offline Panda Halves

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Re: What is the difference between a MS 69 MATTE and a PF 69 MATTE
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2012, 01:24:35 AM »
Your first coin has SP for specimen on the label and not MS.
I'd guess it was a proof method Specimen strike.

Offline badon

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Re: What is the difference between a MS 69 MATTE and a PF 69 MATTE
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2012, 01:37:00 AM »
The word "proof" has been liberally abused in modern times. Originally, it meant the same thing as "pattern", and always implied higher quality production. Now, almost every coin China strikes is called "proof" to exploit the "proof in quality" connotations, but the ones that aren't called "proof" still look nearly the same.

"BU" is the most recent term of them all, and it's used in China in a way that has nothing to do with its original meaning. "BU" is an English acronym for "Brilliant Uncirculated". It was originally applied to non-proof circulating coinage without toning, and free of blemishes enough to earn a 63 grade or higher. Of course, it was liberally abused by English speakers to apply to poor quality coins, especially if they were trying to sell the coin for an inflated price.

So, I guess we're left with a situation where there can be different strikes for different purposes, and different terminologies that mean nothing specific, and of course the mints and everyone else can use whatever terms they want.

The word "specimen" is now used to describe things that are somewhere between "pattern" and "proof". Since China exploited the term "pattern" by producing them in somewhat large numbers for sale to collectors, I suppose that explains why NGC calls the coin a "specimen" instead of a "proof".

As far as I'm concerned, I don't trust anything anybody says unless I know exactly what they're talking about. Too much doubletalk going on, both in the West and the East. Fortunately, the grading services have improved the situation, but they still do bizarre things like "piefort" and refusing to recognize cameo frosting on coins that aren't also called "proof".

Offline sasushi

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Re: What is the difference between a MS 69 MATTE and a PF 69 MATTE
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2012, 01:51:46 PM »
Thanks for helping - but I m still confused. Looking at the (NGC grading) census there doesn t exist a sp and as I know there are only two versions of 1984 volleyball coins

Proof Mintage 4500
Matte Mintage 1000


So If I try to fit them into the NGC scheme or labeling:

MS   (mintage 1000)
PFMA (mintage 1000)
PFUC (mintage 4500)
PFCA (mintage 4500)

If you look at the SP coin
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3563439-007
and press census you will see they have put it to PFMA - so is PFMA and SP the same ??
an what is MS ???

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: What is the difference between a MS 69 MATTE and a PF 69 MATTE
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2012, 05:27:52 PM »
I learned long ago not to use NGC census for latest and accurate information.  Good as some sort of guideline.