Author Topic: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?  (Read 37034 times)

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Offline bonke

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2012, 07:29:24 PM »
Sasushi

I looked at your silver-plated goldfish at the NGC website.  It appears one of the goldfish is mislabeled (since the labels show two Red High Head goldfish).  Hopefully, it will not be too painful to resubmit it for re-labeling.  3627475-005 looks wonderful.  3627475-006 has such a different finish.  It is hard to imagine both medals are in the same set.  Thanks for sharing these medals with us.  I enjoyed looking at them.  Mark Bonke

Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2012, 07:42:47 PM »
I like them all: 1984 silver/silver plated/gilt brass, 1990 silver (also pagodas). I have some of them and will certainly buy others. I will also buy 69 graded for the ones I have in 68, or ungraded.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2012, 09:04:37 PM »
I also have little or no interest in these coins.  When I first started collecting Modern Chinese Coins I nearly spent a very large sum of money on a Pagoda set.  I am very glad I did not as I have since seen the prices crash.  Will these someday make a good investment.  Could be, but the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth and a lot of it had to do with the hype of this forum.  I learned a lesson and fortunately not an expensive one.

I also don't really love the designs.  That is just my personal opinion of course.  I love the Temple of Heaven on the front of Pandas and all the various buildings / pagodas on the back of the early lunar coins.  I wish they had continued using those designs on the Lunars series.  But the almost cartoony designs of the pagodas don't do it for me.  And frankly those bug eye fish are kinda ugly!

Lastly, at current price levels maybe I should own some but I just can't bring myself to spend even a few hundred a coin on these, especially now that we have silver, silver plated, gilded, etc.


Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 09:42:44 PM »
A year ago I did not want a pagoda due to high price and cartoonish reverse.  Then the price dropped.  Bought one and was surprised how mirrored and detailed the pagoda is.  Like most MCC, once you hold it in hand, you want one.  So I traded for a set of pagodas.  This may be one of the few chances to own a low mintage MCC at a reasonable price.  I think prices will go right back up to where they were at some point so why not?  Sets are spendy so even a single pagoda at these prices are a great buy.  Graded medals should be safe.  The goldfish are not that attractive and may belong in a frying pan. However, the goldfish will probably grow on a collector as they look very detailed.  I need to buy one.............

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2012, 10:04:35 PM »
I also have little or no interest in these coins.  When I first started collecting Modern Chinese Coins I nearly spent a very large sum of money on a Pagoda set.  I am very glad I did not as I have since seen the prices crash.  Will these someday make a good investment.  Could be, but the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth and a lot of it had to do with the hype of this forum.  I learned a lesson and fortunately not an expensive one.

I also don't really love the designs.  That is just my personal opinion of course.  I love the Temple of Heaven on the front of Pandas and all the various buildings / pagodas on the back of the early lunar coins.  I wish they had continued using those designs on the Lunars series.  But the almost cartoony designs of the pagodas don't do it for me.  And frankly those bug eye fish are kinda ugly!

Lastly, at current price levels maybe I should own some but I just can't bring myself to spend even a few hundred a coin on these, especially now that we have silver, silver plated, gilded, etc.

From a pure investment point of view, the goal is only to make money. But, in practice, it's never that simple. That's why I always recommend that people invest in what they like, since it goes a long way in helping investors remain calm and patient during the ups and down that occur during the life of a long term investment.

There is no complication for pure collectors, and there are many, many of them out there. They only buy what they like, and all other considerations are less important. I've never heard of anyone that didn't like making money, though :)

I think what excites people about the goldfish and pagodas is the mystery and history. Everyone loves a good mystery, so combine that with their beauty (which is in the eye of the beholder), and you have a recipe for a popular coin.

Obsidian, it's quite wise of you to avoid making large purchases when you're new to the market. Although people blame me for "pumping" pagodas, and now goldfish, I don't think that characterization is fair. I've written about a lot of coins, and none of them have become as popular as the pagodas and goldfish. I have talked quite a lot less about the goldfish than I have about the pagodas, but it appears that they're quickly becoming at least as popular as pagodas. Coin popularity is helped by my writing, but there's no way it could be sustained for this long if that was all there was to it.

I think it's safe to say that pagodas and goldfish have a life of their own now. Many of the recent major discoveries were made by people besides me. For example, I was always resistant to the idea that there were genuine plated pagodas and goldfish, but other researchers took up the cause, and now NGC is certifying them. I'm very proud of the quality and quantity of my research and writing about pagodas and goldfish, but lately I have been superseded by at least 4 other researchers who have discovered things about them that I could not.

I'm happy to see that I'm no longer the sole researcher. It means the market is maturing, and rarity could then play a more important role than popularity due to the tiny mintages of these coins. If there were only 100 enthusiastic collectors for silver pagodas in all of China, and in all of the world, that's still about 50 more than the entire known surviving population. That makes them a good investment, and that's why I wrote about them in the first place. At today's low prices, a seller should have no problem finding a buyer so he can cash out of pagodas if he wanted to. Few have come to the market, so that means I'm probably not the only one that thinks they're keepers.

Obsidian, I agree that the current price levels are tempting. If you decide to get a set, please let us know if you can. We will all be curious how you reasoned with yourself when making your decision to buy. As a person who has been both for and against pagodas at different times, you can provide a balancing point of view for those of us who are blinded by love for these coins :)

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2012, 10:08:41 PM »
A year ago I did not want a pagoda due to high price and cartoonish reverse.  Then the price dropped.  Bought one and was surprised how mirrored and detailed the pagoda is.  Like most MCC, once you hold it in hand, you want one.  So I traded for a set of pagodas.  This may be one of the few chances to own a low mintage MCC at a reasonable price.  I think prices will go right back up to where they were at some point so why not?  Sets are spendy so even a single pagoda at these prices are a great buy.  Graded medals should be safe.  The goldfish are not that attractive and may belong in a frying pan. However, the goldfish will probably grow on a collector as they look very detailed.  I need to buy one.............

The pagodas are one of the few coins where it's obvious that the dies were hand-crafted. When you finally get to see them in person, instead of just in pictures, the tiny details that came directly from the artist's hands jump out at you. Maybe that's why we see these coins as being "special", aside from the obvious things like the design and their rarity.

Offline goldpig

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2012, 10:40:36 PM »
I really like the goldfish medals but a few dealers told me to forget about them because its very difficult to tell which are fake.

they can be easily faked in China because the medals are not legal tender.

Is there any sure way to tell a real set from fake?

Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2012, 10:58:22 PM »
I really like the goldfish medals but a few dealers told me to forget about them because its very difficult to tell which are fake.

they can be easily faked in China because the medals are not legal tender.

Is there any sure way to tell a real set from fake?

To start with, buy graded ones - that is safe.

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2012, 11:48:38 PM »
Forgery technology gets better all the time, but so does forgery detection technology. In most cases, it is far cheaper to just buy the coin than it is to make a perfect forgery. These high quality modern coins are the most difficult to fake because every tiny imperfection is clearly visible. Like shibaji said, buy the certified ones and you won't need to worry about it.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2012, 09:11:53 AM »
Are the 1984 silver and silver-plated goldfish medals 100% identical? Is there any way to distinguish between them only by looking at them? What is the weight of a double-sealed medal, silver and silver-plated?

Thanks in advance.

Offline bonke

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2012, 11:20:41 AM »
Gilmore

An expert will be able to tell the difference between the silver and silver-plated goldfish by just glancing at the medals in the appropriate light setting.  The color and the luster are different.  I am a collector.  I am not an expert.  I own both types.  In the appropriate lighting, I can see the difference.  In other lighting, I can not. 

Badon knows more about these medals than anyone else.  One day, he will write an article disclosing all of his information.  Then, we will have a chance to easily determine which is which and make appropriate purchase decisions.  I doubt whether weight alone will permit you to make purchase decisions.  I doubt whether particular design attributes will permit you to make purchase decisions.  The silver goldfish vary in weight and vary in design.  Many varieties?  Many patterns?  Many different presentation pieces?  I do not know.  Badon probably knows.  Hopefully, he will share his knowledge with us soon.

Mark Bonke

Offline Gilmore

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2012, 01:17:18 AM »
Thank you Bonke for your reply.

I found a 1984 goldfish set double-sealed for sale. The seller says it is silver but since there is no way to verify this I am not sure if it wise to take the risk of ending up with a silver-plated set. It is a few hundreds of dollars purchase that could end up having a $50 worth. The risk is greater than the reward in my opinion.


Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2012, 02:33:21 AM »
Thank you Bonke for your reply.

I found a 1984 goldfish set double-sealed for sale. The seller says it is silver but since there is no way to verify this I am not sure if it wise to take the risk of ending up with a silver-plated set. It is a few hundreds of dollars purchase that could end up having a $50 worth. The risk is greater than the reward in my opinion.



If you decide not to buy please let me know where you found it. Thanks!

Underbidder

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2012, 03:29:08 AM »
Is there reason to be especially wary of "double sealed" 1984 Goldfish (and Pagodas)?  Perhaps. Evidence points to those being the "plated" versions.
Do Your Own Due Diligence.

Offline goldpig

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2012, 04:19:00 AM »
i recently saw one 1984 silver double sealed set and one 1984 silver plated double sealed set.

the plastic pouches for the silver goldfish had that light blue tint, felt rubbery and had a light sweet smell. = real?

the plastic pouches for the silver plated fish were clear,  felt rigid and had a more plastic smell.= fake?

Any info about the pouches for the silver plated goldfish?