Author Topic: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?  (Read 36637 times)

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Offline bonke

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What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« on: May 18, 2012, 03:53:55 PM »
Greetings

Month after month, coin forum members discussed the one-fish design goldfish medals.  Now, NGC has completed its research and is authenticating, grading and slabbing (1984) silver goldfish, (1984) silver-plated brass goldfish and (1984) gilt-plated brass goldfish.

If you already own (1984) goldfish, will you keep them or sell them?

If you keep them, will you send them to NGC for authentication, grading and slabbing?

If you do not already own them, will you purchase them?  silver?  silver-plated brass?  gilt-plated brass?

As a collector of modern Chinese coins and medals, I know what I will do.  After all of this lengthy discussion, I will be pleased to know what you will do.

Mark Bonke

Offline sasushi

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2012, 04:14:36 PM »
I will get mine graded and sell them - to finance some other chinese silver coins. Somehow I m into chinese siler coins, no pandas, no gold ...
Bought two sets - one got stolen in the post  :crying: - the other is the plated version 1984
Regards Sasushi

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2012, 06:30:37 PM »


As a collector of modern Chinese coins and medals, I know what I will do. 

So, what have you decided to do?



I have a couple sets of each 1984 and 1990, both silver, not plate, I believe, and gold gilt, all in OMP, and that's how I prefer 'em and that's the way they will stay.

I love the artistic design and the unique carved style, and I think they are classics.

I believe are ways to tell if one has sterling or silver plate, without having to send them in for grading, and that will help clear up this medal's murky past.


Offline bonke

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2012, 07:22:27 PM »
Without the NGC metal testing, it is my opinion that it is very difficult to tell whether the medals are silver or silver-plated brass.  I have tried to look carefully at the medals in my collection and I have not found a "tell" which will easily allow me to tell the difference.  [In the correct lighting, there seems to be a different color or tone in both the field and in the raised designs.  In other lighting, I cannot see the difference.] If you know how to tell the difference and are willing to share this information with us, I am certain that we will all appreciate it.  Mark Bonke

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2012, 09:05:16 PM »
A “Ring Test” is a simple test that can be performed to estimate the silver content. The coin to be tested is balanced on the tip of a finger then struck lightly with a known silver coin, such as 1964 JFK half dollar or low grade silver dollar, on the edge. If the coin is sliver it will ring for several seconds with a sweet, high-pitched sound. The higher the silver content, the longer the ring will last. Try to practice first with 1964 JFK half dollar (0.3685 silver purity) to learn the pitched sound of low silver content and then low grade silver dollar (0.90 or higher silver purity) for high silver content. Similar to Cu-Ni JFK half dollar (post-1964), silver plated copper coin will not ring.

Light touch to the edge of the rim will not damage your coin. Just make sure to perform this test on top of a soft surface, in case you drop the coin.

The silver plated medal weighs 16.7 gm. I do not know the weight of 0.900 silver medal, since I have never seen one.

Offline bonke

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2012, 09:22:11 PM »
The NGC announcement of its position concerning the (1984) goldfish medals includes pictures of silver, silver-plated brass and gilt-plated brass goldfish medals in NGC slabs.  In theory, a person could visit the NGC site and look at the magnified pictures of the medals in these slabs.  Is this as helpful as holding one in your hand and looking at it?  I do not know. 

Thank you for the suggestion about testing the silver metal content.  I immediately started laughing as I read your suggestions.  I am so careless.  If I would try to test the metal content using this technique, I am certain that I would damage the medals.  This is one of the reasons that I get items in my collection slabbed.  I am trying to protect my coins and medals from my careless actions.

Mark Bonke     

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2012, 09:30:37 PM »
The "ring test" is admittedly difficult to do, as is weighing, if your medal is still in the OMP pouch or slabbed.

I have a couple of loose ones in their capsules, I'll try to dig them out and test them.

I examine everything under loops, and I have to trust a difference can be told between the crispness of the usual surface vs a plated one.
I will check what I have and do whichever tests I can on the loose ones.  Its been several months since I did this so it'll be a refresher. Back then I was following Poconopenns detailed photos on a thread on what plated details look like magnified, and I think it showed some of the differences well.

Now I just have to find the time to find my diving gear.

Offline bonke

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2012, 02:46:30 PM »
The discussion about the (1984) and (1990) goldfish medals was extensive.  Along the way, I purchased multiple sets of these medals.  I thought other coin forum members were also purchasing these medals.  Now, with NGC's decision to grade silver, silver-plated brass and gilt-plated brass goldfish medals, I thought many, many coin forum members would be sending their medals to NGC for metal analysis, authentication, grading and slabbing.  I thought we would have much more information about the rarity of these medals within the next few months.  Are there 10 silver sets?  20 sets?  30 sets? or more?  We will never know if the owners do not submit their sets for metal analysis.  No matter what you think or feel, there may be no substitute for the metal analysis by NGC.  I welcome your comments.  Mark Bonke

Offline dobedo

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2012, 09:44:41 PM »
"If you do not already own them, will you purchase them?"

Mark, Sorry to disappoint you, but the goldfish and I just don't see any future in each other. Our relationship remains fishy.

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2012, 09:39:02 PM »
A “Ring Test” is a simple test that can be performed to estimate the silver content. The coin to be tested is balanced on the tip of a finger then struck lightly with a known silver coin, such as 1964 JFK half dollar or low grade silver dollar, on the edge.

...

Light touch to the edge of the rim will not damage your coin. Just make sure to perform this test on top of a soft surface, in case you drop the coin.

Although the ring test works, I strongly advise everyone to NOT do this. It can and will damage your pristine proof coins, and that's assuming you don't drop it or leave fingerprints all over it. If you do it with a scraped up old coin, the damage it does is not as noticeable, but I still cringe every time I see someone do it. 50 years of collectors doing that to their coins eventually reduces them to a pile of oxidized dust. For some reason, it's only Chinese collectors that I've seen do it.

Although I still don't recommend it, it is possible to do a ring test without damaging the coin. Using a hard rod of plastic or wood will make it ring, and since it's much softer than the silver, the rod will take most of the damage instead of the coin. But, remember, all physical contact damages coins, no matter how light and careful it is. If you don't believe me, go handle a bunch of coins, and then look at the "dirt" on your hands. That "dirt" used to be a coin!

A coin can survive in pristine condition for 3000+ years buried in mud, but it won't last 50 years in the hands of collectors that touch the coins unnecessarily. Every touch takes away a little of the surface of the coin. For silver, that surface is actually an oxide passivation layer that stops corrosion before it can start. When you touch a coin, you may not think you have touched it enough to damage it, but what you have done is accidentally wipe away the oxide passivation layer. After that, the oxygen in the atmosphere is able to penetrate and attack the unprotected silver (or any coinage metal, except usually gold, platinum, and palladium).

So, a finger on a coin is not just a finger. It's actually very much like a quick dip in a mild acid. That's why circulating coins appear "worn". There are not enough fingers in the world to wear away the surface of silver coin. Silver is too hard, and it would just leave a lot of bloody stumps in its path. But, the oxygen in the atmosphere has an ally in "blind" people who see with their hands. The fingers wipe away the oxide passivation layer, and the oxygen (etc) in the atmosphere does the rest.

If a mushy finger can do that kind of damage, imagine what clanking coins together can do...

Offline sasushi

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2012, 09:55:10 PM »
Hello Bonke

sent my plated ones to ncs (bought for 79 USD) - lets see what happens - fake or real - I ll keep you informed.

regards
sasushi

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2012, 10:03:19 PM »
NGC now has notations in their population reports for plated goldfish.

Offline sasushi

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2012, 05:22:19 PM »
finally they goldfish (silver plated) got graded....

3627475-005 / -008

So at least they were real - any ideas about the mintage???

Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2012, 06:06:47 PM »
Population is 2 for all silver plated versions, 4 for gilt brass version, 6 for silver versions (all 1984) - the silver version has 7 for "pearl scales", but only 6 complete sets.

Offline comeaux

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2012, 06:59:02 PM »
If you do not already own them, will you purchase them?

As I am a collector I always say that there is no right or wrong way … collect what brings you joy.
 
To answer the original question truthfully and coming from a collector’s point of view … these goldfish medals (pagodas as well) do not attract me and I will not buy them. It’s nothing meant to be condescending to those that own them but that’s just me …

I can appreciate the reverence and fascination others have for these medals but I will not buy them.       

Offline bonke

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2012, 07:29:24 PM »
Sasushi

I looked at your silver-plated goldfish at the NGC website.  It appears one of the goldfish is mislabeled (since the labels show two Red High Head goldfish).  Hopefully, it will not be too painful to resubmit it for re-labeling.  3627475-005 looks wonderful.  3627475-006 has such a different finish.  It is hard to imagine both medals are in the same set.  Thanks for sharing these medals with us.  I enjoyed looking at them.  Mark Bonke

Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2012, 07:42:47 PM »
I like them all: 1984 silver/silver plated/gilt brass, 1990 silver (also pagodas). I have some of them and will certainly buy others. I will also buy 69 graded for the ones I have in 68, or ungraded.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2012, 09:04:37 PM »
I also have little or no interest in these coins.  When I first started collecting Modern Chinese Coins I nearly spent a very large sum of money on a Pagoda set.  I am very glad I did not as I have since seen the prices crash.  Will these someday make a good investment.  Could be, but the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth and a lot of it had to do with the hype of this forum.  I learned a lesson and fortunately not an expensive one.

I also don't really love the designs.  That is just my personal opinion of course.  I love the Temple of Heaven on the front of Pandas and all the various buildings / pagodas on the back of the early lunar coins.  I wish they had continued using those designs on the Lunars series.  But the almost cartoony designs of the pagodas don't do it for me.  And frankly those bug eye fish are kinda ugly!

Lastly, at current price levels maybe I should own some but I just can't bring myself to spend even a few hundred a coin on these, especially now that we have silver, silver plated, gilded, etc.


Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 09:42:44 PM »
A year ago I did not want a pagoda due to high price and cartoonish reverse.  Then the price dropped.  Bought one and was surprised how mirrored and detailed the pagoda is.  Like most MCC, once you hold it in hand, you want one.  So I traded for a set of pagodas.  This may be one of the few chances to own a low mintage MCC at a reasonable price.  I think prices will go right back up to where they were at some point so why not?  Sets are spendy so even a single pagoda at these prices are a great buy.  Graded medals should be safe.  The goldfish are not that attractive and may belong in a frying pan. However, the goldfish will probably grow on a collector as they look very detailed.  I need to buy one.............

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2012, 10:04:35 PM »
I also have little or no interest in these coins.  When I first started collecting Modern Chinese Coins I nearly spent a very large sum of money on a Pagoda set.  I am very glad I did not as I have since seen the prices crash.  Will these someday make a good investment.  Could be, but the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth and a lot of it had to do with the hype of this forum.  I learned a lesson and fortunately not an expensive one.

I also don't really love the designs.  That is just my personal opinion of course.  I love the Temple of Heaven on the front of Pandas and all the various buildings / pagodas on the back of the early lunar coins.  I wish they had continued using those designs on the Lunars series.  But the almost cartoony designs of the pagodas don't do it for me.  And frankly those bug eye fish are kinda ugly!

Lastly, at current price levels maybe I should own some but I just can't bring myself to spend even a few hundred a coin on these, especially now that we have silver, silver plated, gilded, etc.

From a pure investment point of view, the goal is only to make money. But, in practice, it's never that simple. That's why I always recommend that people invest in what they like, since it goes a long way in helping investors remain calm and patient during the ups and down that occur during the life of a long term investment.

There is no complication for pure collectors, and there are many, many of them out there. They only buy what they like, and all other considerations are less important. I've never heard of anyone that didn't like making money, though :)

I think what excites people about the goldfish and pagodas is the mystery and history. Everyone loves a good mystery, so combine that with their beauty (which is in the eye of the beholder), and you have a recipe for a popular coin.

Obsidian, it's quite wise of you to avoid making large purchases when you're new to the market. Although people blame me for "pumping" pagodas, and now goldfish, I don't think that characterization is fair. I've written about a lot of coins, and none of them have become as popular as the pagodas and goldfish. I have talked quite a lot less about the goldfish than I have about the pagodas, but it appears that they're quickly becoming at least as popular as pagodas. Coin popularity is helped by my writing, but there's no way it could be sustained for this long if that was all there was to it.

I think it's safe to say that pagodas and goldfish have a life of their own now. Many of the recent major discoveries were made by people besides me. For example, I was always resistant to the idea that there were genuine plated pagodas and goldfish, but other researchers took up the cause, and now NGC is certifying them. I'm very proud of the quality and quantity of my research and writing about pagodas and goldfish, but lately I have been superseded by at least 4 other researchers who have discovered things about them that I could not.

I'm happy to see that I'm no longer the sole researcher. It means the market is maturing, and rarity could then play a more important role than popularity due to the tiny mintages of these coins. If there were only 100 enthusiastic collectors for silver pagodas in all of China, and in all of the world, that's still about 50 more than the entire known surviving population. That makes them a good investment, and that's why I wrote about them in the first place. At today's low prices, a seller should have no problem finding a buyer so he can cash out of pagodas if he wanted to. Few have come to the market, so that means I'm probably not the only one that thinks they're keepers.

Obsidian, I agree that the current price levels are tempting. If you decide to get a set, please let us know if you can. We will all be curious how you reasoned with yourself when making your decision to buy. As a person who has been both for and against pagodas at different times, you can provide a balancing point of view for those of us who are blinded by love for these coins :)

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2012, 10:08:41 PM »
A year ago I did not want a pagoda due to high price and cartoonish reverse.  Then the price dropped.  Bought one and was surprised how mirrored and detailed the pagoda is.  Like most MCC, once you hold it in hand, you want one.  So I traded for a set of pagodas.  This may be one of the few chances to own a low mintage MCC at a reasonable price.  I think prices will go right back up to where they were at some point so why not?  Sets are spendy so even a single pagoda at these prices are a great buy.  Graded medals should be safe.  The goldfish are not that attractive and may belong in a frying pan. However, the goldfish will probably grow on a collector as they look very detailed.  I need to buy one.............

The pagodas are one of the few coins where it's obvious that the dies were hand-crafted. When you finally get to see them in person, instead of just in pictures, the tiny details that came directly from the artist's hands jump out at you. Maybe that's why we see these coins as being "special", aside from the obvious things like the design and their rarity.

Offline goldpig

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2012, 10:40:36 PM »
I really like the goldfish medals but a few dealers told me to forget about them because its very difficult to tell which are fake.

they can be easily faked in China because the medals are not legal tender.

Is there any sure way to tell a real set from fake?

Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2012, 10:58:22 PM »
I really like the goldfish medals but a few dealers told me to forget about them because its very difficult to tell which are fake.

they can be easily faked in China because the medals are not legal tender.

Is there any sure way to tell a real set from fake?

To start with, buy graded ones - that is safe.

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2012, 11:48:38 PM »
Forgery technology gets better all the time, but so does forgery detection technology. In most cases, it is far cheaper to just buy the coin than it is to make a perfect forgery. These high quality modern coins are the most difficult to fake because every tiny imperfection is clearly visible. Like shibaji said, buy the certified ones and you won't need to worry about it.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2012, 09:11:53 AM »
Are the 1984 silver and silver-plated goldfish medals 100% identical? Is there any way to distinguish between them only by looking at them? What is the weight of a double-sealed medal, silver and silver-plated?

Thanks in advance.

Offline bonke

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2012, 11:20:41 AM »
Gilmore

An expert will be able to tell the difference between the silver and silver-plated goldfish by just glancing at the medals in the appropriate light setting.  The color and the luster are different.  I am a collector.  I am not an expert.  I own both types.  In the appropriate lighting, I can see the difference.  In other lighting, I can not. 

Badon knows more about these medals than anyone else.  One day, he will write an article disclosing all of his information.  Then, we will have a chance to easily determine which is which and make appropriate purchase decisions.  I doubt whether weight alone will permit you to make purchase decisions.  I doubt whether particular design attributes will permit you to make purchase decisions.  The silver goldfish vary in weight and vary in design.  Many varieties?  Many patterns?  Many different presentation pieces?  I do not know.  Badon probably knows.  Hopefully, he will share his knowledge with us soon.

Mark Bonke

Offline Gilmore

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2012, 01:17:18 AM »
Thank you Bonke for your reply.

I found a 1984 goldfish set double-sealed for sale. The seller says it is silver but since there is no way to verify this I am not sure if it wise to take the risk of ending up with a silver-plated set. It is a few hundreds of dollars purchase that could end up having a $50 worth. The risk is greater than the reward in my opinion.


Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2012, 02:33:21 AM »
Thank you Bonke for your reply.

I found a 1984 goldfish set double-sealed for sale. The seller says it is silver but since there is no way to verify this I am not sure if it wise to take the risk of ending up with a silver-plated set. It is a few hundreds of dollars purchase that could end up having a $50 worth. The risk is greater than the reward in my opinion.



If you decide not to buy please let me know where you found it. Thanks!

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2012, 03:29:08 AM »
Is there reason to be especially wary of "double sealed" 1984 Goldfish (and Pagodas)?  Perhaps. Evidence points to those being the "plated" versions.
Do Your Own Due Diligence.

Offline goldpig

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2012, 04:19:00 AM »
i recently saw one 1984 silver double sealed set and one 1984 silver plated double sealed set.

the plastic pouches for the silver goldfish had that light blue tint, felt rubbery and had a light sweet smell. = real?

the plastic pouches for the silver plated fish were clear,  felt rigid and had a more plastic smell.= fake?

Any info about the pouches for the silver plated goldfish?


Offline Gilmore

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2012, 04:38:53 AM »
Hi Goldpig,
Can you please check the weight of each set, silver and silver plated, including the capsules and mint wraps?

Thanks.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2012, 09:07:30 AM »
Does anyone have the mintage for the silver goldfish, silver plate and gilt copper goldfish?  Could the plated sets rise in value when the real silver sets take off again?  Rumors I have heard is that the pagoda sets that are silver plate may be the rarest.  Any other information on that?  Due to many fakes, these sets may be cast aside.  Should they be cast aside or collected?   If the fantasy coins such as the 1992 silver proof pandas w/ torch mark are rare and expensive then why not real silver plate pagodas?  It may not sound right at this time but they may be the most overlooked and undervalued MCC.... MAYBE ......................

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2012, 11:48:01 AM »
i recently saw one 1984 silver double sealed set and one 1984 silver plated double sealed set.

the plastic pouches for the silver goldfish had that light blue tint, felt rubbery and had a light sweet smell. = real?

the plastic pouches for the silver plated fish were clear,  felt rigid and had a more plastic smell.= fake?

Any info about the pouches for the silver plated goldfish?



Thanks for that bit of info, Goldpig.  Very interesting.

OMP can sometimes be used to give valuable clues.
But when out of the OMP, other methods need to be employed. 
Do you see any noticeable differences between the medals surface under high mag?
How did you conclude one set is Sterling and the other plated?

Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2012, 12:38:19 PM »
Does anyone have the mintage for the silver goldfish, silver plate and gilt copper goldfish?  Could the plated sets rise in value when the real silver sets take off again?  Rumors I have heard is that the pagoda sets that are silver plate may be the rarest.  Any other information on that?  Due to many fakes, these sets may be cast aside.  Should they be cast aside or collected?   If the fantasy coins such as the 1992 silver proof pandas w/ torch mark are rare and expensive then why not real silver plate pagodas?  It may not sound right at this time but they may be the most overlooked and undervalued MCC.... MAYBE ......................

I am yet to see a silver plated pagoda set, or copper pagoda set for sale. Have not found any despite searching for them.

Offline Pandana

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2012, 03:42:11 PM »
Gold fish, pagoda ... no matter how we slice it --- they are not worth the dollars.  I, for one will not spend any to buy these medals.

Offical/unoffical? 
Silver/plated/brass?
Varieties?
what control further production?

All are speculations?  is this good, educated guess investment? collection?

Worth the dollars?  there are tons of other collectible, valuable MCC for us to choose and spend our dollars.

My 2 cents

Offline bonke

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2012, 04:02:39 PM »
I doubt if many silver goldfish sets exist.  It is probably not worth arguing whether it is or is not appropriate to spend money on silver goldfish when the mintage is (most likely) too low to even meet the needs of a few members of this forum. 

Silver pagoda sets are different.  Every month, there is an opportunity to purchase a silver pagoda set.  The buyer may or may not like the price, but the sets are available.  As time passes, this will change.  Prices will move up and down until, one day, the sets will be in the hands of serious collectors and they will be gone.  A mintage of 260 is small, very small.

I agree that there are plenty of other places to spend our dollars.  [Still, if I see another silver goldfish medal or set at a price which I decide is "reasonable", I will purchase it immediately to add to my collection.]

Mark Bonke


Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2012, 04:35:50 PM »
Gold fish, pagoda ... no matter how we slice it --- they are not worth the dollars.  I, for one will not spend any to buy these medals.

Thank you. Wise choice - please spend your money elsewhere. One less contender in the market.

Offline comeaux

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2012, 09:10:27 PM »
I also have little or no interest in these coins.  When I first started collecting Modern Chinese Coins I nearly spent a very large sum of money on a Pagoda set.  I am very glad I did not as I have since seen the prices crash.  Will these someday make a good investment.  Could be, but the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth and a lot of it had to do with the hype of this forum.  I learned a lesson and fortunately not an expensive one.

I also don't really love the designs.  That is just my personal opinion of course.  I love the Temple of Heaven on the front of Pandas and all the various buildings / pagodas on the back of the early lunar coins.  I wish they had continued using those designs on the Lunars series.  But the almost cartoony designs of the pagodas don't do it for me.  And frankly those bug eye fish are kinda ugly!

Lastly, at current price levels maybe I should own some but I just can't bring myself to spend even a few hundred a coin on these, especially now that we have silver, silver plated, gilded, etc.
Gold fish, pagoda ... no matter how we slice it --- they are not worth the dollars.  I, for one will not spend any to buy these medals.

Offical/unoffical? 
Silver/plated/brass?
Varieties?
what control further production?

All are speculations?  is this good, educated guess investment? collection?

Worth the dollars?  there are tons of other collectible, valuable MCC for us to choose and spend our dollars.
My 2 cents
I agree guys ... totally legitimate concerns.

My initial post in this thread was to answer the OP question “If you do not own them, would you purchase them?” In which I truthfully answered “no I have no interest and would not buy”.  :thumbdown:

I gave no reasons as to why I am not interested but my thoughts are pretty much in line with obsidian and pandana. I’m starting to see more MCC collectors with this exact sentiment as well.

As obsidian mentioned, although these coins can now be bought for a few hundred each, it still does not have any influence or motivation for me to purchase them.

It’s obvious that the demand is nowhere close to what it once was which I guess makes it good for those looking to load up on cheap coins at bottom-feeder prices. :w00t:

In my opinion if you are buying these coins as an investor … unless you don’t mind waiting 20 years (or longer) to possibly get a return, I’d avoid them like the plague. Like others have already said … there are too many great coins to buy right now so why deal with problem coins.

   

Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2012, 09:17:36 PM »
... and why are these problem coins comeaux?

I understand people will have different choices, but fail to understand the eagerness to advice others on what to do or not. Very weird. Would you pay the difference in money lost if pagoda/goldfish sets rise in price in couple of years instead of next 20 years ? Half baked knowledge is very dangerous. None of you are experts in MCC, so try and be within that limit - instead of expressing your choice for these, as the thread heading says, this is now becoming thread-crapping.

Offline Pandana

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2012, 10:02:38 PM »
Friends/Colleagues (collector),
I would like to state that I, for one am a novice collector and I respect all viewpoints. 

As for me, looking at the "medal" - especially medals; one key question keep bugging me again and again: 

"what guarantees the mintage, the production number?"  as these are medals, and can be issued by any production house/manufacturers, what would stop them to provide more in number?  one can say that, well - but the year would make it "rare" for the year rpoduced; but this is not "coins" and thus no numismatics nor control in production number is in place from the source.

Thus far, I have followed the thread, and all I see is discussion very close or that of speculative nature; and very close to "pump and dump".

I suspect that if any of us were in China right now; to those frequent touristry places - it would not be hard to see many of these medals.  So are they collectible - maybe a yes; investment value - no.

I will buy it, if I like it enough - but as a novelty to mark my trip as a souvernir, because of the design, of the drawing -- certainly not as collectible/investable items.

Regards

Offline comeaux

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2012, 10:59:33 PM »
Friends/Colleagues (collector),
I would like to state that I, for one am a novice collector and I respect all viewpoints. 

As for me, looking at the "medal" - especially medals; one key question keep bugging me again and again: 

"what guarantees the mintage, the production number?"  as these are medals, and can be issued by any production house/manufacturers, what would stop them to provide more in number?  one can say that, well - but the year would make it "rare" for the year rpoduced; but this is not "coins" and thus no numismatics nor control in production number is in place from the source.

Thus far, I have followed the thread, and all I see is discussion very close or that of speculative nature; and very close to "pump and dump".

I suspect that if any of us were in China right now; to those frequent touristry places - it would not be hard to see many of these medals.  So are they collectible - maybe a yes; investment value - no.

I will buy it, if I like it enough - but as a novelty to mark my trip as a souvernir, because of the design, of the drawing -- certainly not as collectible/investable items.

Regards
:thumbup1:

Offline comeaux

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2012, 11:03:02 PM »
... and why are these problem coins comeaux?

I understand people will have different choices, but fail to understand the eagerness to advice others on what to do or not. Very weird. Would you pay the difference in money lost if pagoda/goldfish sets rise in price in couple of years instead of next 20 years ? Half baked knowledge is very dangerous. None of you are experts in MCC, so try and be within that limit - instead of expressing your choice for these, as the thread heading says, this is now becoming thread-crapping.
Hello Shibaji …

I think you may be taking general discussion and viewpoints of other members just a little too personal.

You state that you “understand” people will have different choices but your actions convey otherwise as any post that does not align with your viewpoint is immediately met with a rapid-fire defensive response as if you are guarding this thread/coins with your life on 24 hour surveillance.        

First off I have never claimed to be an “expert” yet I did not understand that to be criteria before making a post in this thread.  I may not be an “expert” by your standards but I have done and continue to do extensive research in MCC which I do believe has given me excellent fundamentals before investing over $100K of my family’s money into this fascinating collection. To be honest I think there may only be 4 or 5 “experts” on this forum and not even those few members know everything about every MCC coin so if a member has to be an expert by your expectations before posting a viewpoint of opinion … CCF would be a ghost town.    

Also let me remind you that the original poster of this thread asked the question “if you do not own these would you buy them” … why are you so vehemently against other members answering this question and logically explaining why they would not buy them? Your assertion of “thread capping” is baseless. I gave my HONEST OPINION … if you take it as advice then that is your prerogative.  

You just thanked one of the previous posters for showing no interest in these medals so that you would have no competition/contenders and now you attack me for the same viewpoint? Yea … something is REALLY weird here …  

So anyway like I stated in my original post to this thread …  

“As I am a collector I always say that there is no right or wrong way … collect what brings you joy.” :thumbup:

I would also like to add that I would hope that anyone who does invest in these medals would prosper from it in the future …

Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2012, 11:43:16 PM »
The more I research the pagodas, they are not problem coins.  The problem of being plated is denied by NGC.  The tools they have today are more advanced for detecting metal type in coins.  The mintage may be accurate as Mr Ge agrees.  Not much argument on mintage.  Still waiting for the NGC representative to post here and i am sure he will answer questions.  When that happens it should clear up most of the concerns and questions.  Medals are copied but not all of them pass the graders.  Maybe all the debate over these coins will take them to a higher price.  My new collector friends want one after reading some heated posts.  These two medals have had more press than most other MCC, maybe that is good.................

Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2012, 12:28:47 AM »
Dear Comeaux,

I have no problem with your opinion/sentiment. This was the offending line:

"In my opinion if you are buying these coins as an investor … unless you don’t mind waiting 20 years (or longer) to possibly get a return, I’d avoid them like the plague. Like others have already said … there are too many great coins to buy right now so why deal with problem coins."

Anyhow, in your last post you have kind of neutralized it, so all is good.

Cheers!

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2012, 01:39:54 AM »
i recently saw one 1984 silver double sealed set and one 1984 silver plated double sealed set.

the plastic pouches for the silver goldfish had that light blue tint, felt rubbery and had a light sweet smell. = real?

the plastic pouches for the silver plated fish were clear,  felt rigid and had a more plastic smell.= fake?

Any info about the pouches for the silver plated goldfish?


It is my understanding that double sealed mint package was not done to any MCC until 1987, after the formation and incorporation of China Gold Coin Inc. IMO, all 4-coin double sealed in sheet was done later, most likely during last few years. Be very careful when you buy pagoda or goldfish set in 4-coin double sealed sheet. They are not OMP.

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2012, 02:01:23 AM »
For the pagodas, every one I have seen that was double sealed was sealed in the exact same way. The plastic is not my area of expertise, but it seemed to be very consistent from various sources all around the world. If they were sealed in 1987, somebody tracked them down and sealed them all. I have only seen a few that were not in identical original packaging. I probably photos of the plastic somewhere. I got permission to photograph them before they were sent in for grading. Now that we're having this discussion, maybe that will turn out to be lucky and helpful because I normally ignore the plastic.

Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2012, 02:38:37 AM »

Dragons_Are_Silly

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2012, 02:58:05 AM »
Pagoda & 1990 goldfish sealed from Xu Hong:


Sealed BY Xu Hong?    he hav sealer

Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2012, 02:59:44 AM »
Sealed BY Xu Hong?    he hav sealer

I know, but he does not mention "mint sealed / package" if he sealed them.

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2012, 03:17:45 AM »
Those seals look as original as I've ever seen them. But, you know me, I don't give much credibility to that.

Offline goldpig

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2012, 05:44:32 AM »
Hi Goldpig,
Can you please check the weight of each set, silver and silver plated, including the capsules and mint wraps?

Thanks.
Hi Gilmore,

I might need to upgrade my scale... I will keep you up to date.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2012, 05:45:30 AM »
Thanks.

Offline goldpig

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2012, 05:53:45 AM »
Thanks for that bit of info, Goldpig.  Very interesting.

OMP can sometimes be used to give valuable clues.
But when out of the OMP, other methods need to be employed. 
Do you see any noticeable differences between the medals surface under high mag?
How did you conclude one set is Sterling and the other plated?
HI Underbidder,

First there was a huge difference in price between tho two sets and the dealer told me one is plated. The plated set seemed to be more chrome colored. One of the coins in this set also had a small light yellow fog spot which i have never seen before on a coin. Also on all of the plated coins there was lots of fog on the cartoon fish side... this was all done by the naked eye.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2012, 10:18:42 AM »
Notice Xu Hong's pagodas have a broken line on reverse.  Prices of the PF 68 pagados were $510 ebay auction and $700 another seller.  They have averaged $850 asking price.  Ebay 180922537587 PF 67 $1299 pagoda Zhenjue (lower grade).  So asking price is moving up as more information comes out. (Selling price has yet to be determined.)  When the NGC information comes out and the pagodas/goldfish are determined to be legitimate then prices should rise.  Does anyone have a silver plated pagoda set for sale?...............................

Offline davidt3251

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2012, 12:54:01 PM »
Yes thats my lower grade Zhenjue just listed, but prices wouldnt have moved down if Logicpapa hadnt taken a loss on those four Pagodas, the 69s selling for about $1k and the 68 for $510.

I have very good information to indicate he took a loss on all four items. Its possible we see more at those low prices but not too many.
Yes you could argue Clark Smith's set were priced similarly, and thats true. If Clark had a full 69 set, using his pricing, thats about a $4000 set, which is still quite cheap compared to Xuhong's OMP coins at $4600.

But at least now we have price data. Last year, when I overpaid for my first set, there was no price data.

Pagodas are just like the Goldfish, where I think the silver plated versions then the gold gilt will eventually rise in value too.

I really like the Pagoda design. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a coin set with as much mirrored surfaces as those Pagodas. Anyone who has photographed alot of coins will notice this immediately with the Pagodas. In that sense, the Pagoda set is somewhat of a 'category killer' withn loads of mirrored real eastate.

So when you think about what other MCCs Panda collectors might gravitate to after Pandas, these "Mirrorlike Finish" Pagodas have that mirror finish that is oh so expensive in the 2000 Panda series-and sells for a premium. OK, perhaps its a long shot. But I like the historical aspect of the temples also. The other feature is that they apparently werent popular when they were offered, that will surely bring out the curiousity-seekers.


Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2012, 05:12:16 PM »
My favorite design is the Songyue with all of its creamy thick frosting. I like the Kaiyuan too, but it's always the Songyue that jumps out at me. The Zhenjue has frosting like the Songyue, but it isn't as detailed. It kind of looks like a boxy storage shed to me, haha.

Photos never do justice to the incredible beauty of the pagodas. You really have to see them in person to get a glimpse of all the little quirks that a hand-crafted design has. The pagodas were made one at a time with tender loving care, and they look nothing like other mass-produced coins. I guess that's just one of the many things that makes them "special" in the eyes of collectors.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2012, 05:44:06 PM »
I agree davidt3251.  When the bad press is finally gone, and lower supply, then prices will rise.  We maybe close to that.  Your PF 67 is not that far out of line as it is the only single for sale.  All the pagodas and goldfish, gilt or plate, should also rise.  Ebay had 4 gilt copper sets that all sold.  The mirrors on the pagodas are fantastic.  My favorite, at this point in time, is the Zhenjue due to the huge mirror surface and detail of the large block pagoda building.  The pagoda designs jump out like the 2003 silver panda design.  Now is the time to buy..........

Offline Gilmore

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2012, 07:08:33 PM »
Pagodas are just like the Goldfish, where I think the silver plated versions then the gold gilt will eventually rise in value too.

I really hope that the silver-plated pagodas will hold much higher value than the silver-plated goldfish medals. Raw silver-plated goldfish set sells for less than $50 in China.   

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2012, 07:17:27 PM »
There's a lot of uncertainty about the plated coins. No one has any idea how many were made. The solid silver coins are a better bet because we have a pretty good idea of their rarity, both for the pagodas and the goldfish.

The rumor that the plated silver pagodas are rarer than the solid silver ones is interesting. Back when this was all new, I insisted that I had never seen a genuine silver plated pagoda set. So, if there are genuine plated sets, that gives a little more credibility that the genuine silver plated pagodas could be quite rare. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out, and I think a lot of people are in the "wait and see" mode.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2012, 07:28:44 PM »
True, silver-plated goldfish can be easily found while the silver-plated pagodas are rarely seen, as you said.

Offline goldpig

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2012, 06:06:39 AM »
I am still on the fence about a set of plated 84 goldfish...

Fellow collectors, what has been the lowest price you have seen for the plated 84 goldfish (ungraded double sealed)?

what are the graded plated fish going for these days?

Cheers

Offline Gilmore

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2012, 06:15:19 AM »
$25 in China was the lowest I have seen in the last couple of months.

Here is an auction that will end in 2 days:
http://www.zhaoonline.com/qitaqianbi/1565603.shtml

Offline goldpig

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2012, 08:31:19 AM »
Thanks for your info Gilmore!

Do we know if the plated silver 84 goldfish have COAs and/or box?



future thanks.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2012, 04:25:52 PM »
I really like the Pagoda design. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a coin set with as much mirrored surfaces as those Pagodas. Anyone who has photographed alot of coins will notice this immediately with the Pagodas. In that sense, the Pagoda set is somewhat of a 'category killer' withn loads of mirrored real eastate.

So when you think about what other MCCs Panda collectors might gravitate to after Pandas, these "Mirrorlike Finish" Pagodas have that mirror finish that is oh so expensive in the 2000 Panda series-and sells for a premium. OK, perhaps its a long shot. But I like the historical aspect of the temples also. The other feature is that they apparently werent popular when they were offered, that will surely bring out the curiousity-seekers.



It is known that mirror surface always has "stress caused hairlines" near the rim due to the pressure during the production for genuine silver coins, while silver plated coin does not has those special hairlines. A nice mirror surface without stress caused hairlines in combination with other desgin differences is a clear clue to be concerned if the coin is questionable or not.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2012, 11:27:14 PM »
I contacted many sellers/dealers on pagodas or goldfish availability.   Two said do not buy. About 6 sellers sold out.  About 2 others had parties buy them out recently.  (there are a couple of PF 69 and one PF 67 pagodas on ebay but not cheap) Buyers are taking them off the market now so the glut of pagodas and goldfish may be over.  logicpapa has a set in NGC so his upcoming ebay auction will answer some questions if another set is not put up first..................   

Offline shibaji

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2012, 01:30:15 AM »
I really do not understand all this fuss about goldfish and pagoda sets being non-desirable. If they are truly so, neither topstock or I should have any problem getting these quickly after we posted "want to buy", but unfortunately, no offers so far. Does that say something ?!

Offline goldpig

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2012, 02:56:09 AM »
I just purchased Mr. Ge's 2011 price guide.  In the medals section there is NO mention or photos of the 84 goldfish.

There ARE photos of the 1990 goldfish.

What does Mr. Ge know that we don't??


Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2012, 03:08:37 AM »
It might have just been an omission. As a guess, there are probably dozens or hundreds of other coins that are not in Gee Zukang's books. That will give him something to work on for future editions.

Underbidder

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2012, 03:18:10 AM »
I just purchased Mr. Ge's 2011 price guide.  In the medals section there is NO mention or photos of the 84 goldfish.

There ARE photos of the 1990 goldfish.

What does Mr. Ge know that we don't??


Good question, Goldpig ! ( by the way, LOVE that name!)

And also, please listen to Poconopenn... He has been right on all along.

Take 16x loops and LOOK closely before you buy-  if there are NO flowlines/ stresslines, that medal just might be plated.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 03:25:24 AM by Underbidder »

Underbidder

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2012, 04:31:16 AM »
I just purchased Mr. Ge's 2011 price guide.  In the medals section there is NO mention or photos of the 84 goldfish.

There ARE photos of the 1990 goldfish.

What does Mr. Ge know that we don't??
T
Quote from: goldpig link=topic=5687.msg36347#msg36347 date=[/quote







« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 04:38:25 AM by Underbidder »

Underbidder

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2012, 04:37:34 AM »
There is an old expression in investing:

"Look around the table: if you don't know who the SUCKER is, it is YOU! "

Meaning : be wary... If something smells fishy, trust your intuition... There's lots of time later

Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2012, 09:02:21 AM »
The only way to solve this is to be patient and let NGC have their say.  If anyone knows, it is the graders.  Their reputation and livelihood depends on accuracy.  Poconopen is one of the most knowlegeable people on this forum.  No argument there.  However, maybe new equipment is available to test coins for metal content.  Have emailed many more sellers and this is the conclusion.  Buyers have been snapping up the pagodas and goldfish the last month or two.  There is not much supply as even singles (not sets) are not available.  Badon are you the secret buyer that is buying up the remaining supply?  You are always a step ahead in this market.  The pagoda set of 68 and 69 I traded for may seem like a bargain in another 2 months.  Basically, wait for NGC and there is no supply of pagodas or goldfish for sale........................

Offline goldpig

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2012, 09:50:43 AM »
There is an old expression in investing:

"Look around the table: if you don't know who the SUCKER is, it is YOU! "

Meaning : be wary... If something smells fishy, trust your intuition... There's lots of time later

Thanks for your reply Underbidder,

I just got my hands on two more books issued by The People's Bank of China and CHina Gold Coin inc.

Guess what?

No 1984 goldfish medals of any kind listed or pictured.

1990 goldfish are both listed and pictured in both books.


Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2012, 04:24:53 PM »
Found set of pagoda and goldfish PF 69.  PM me, all the info I have at this time.......

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2012, 06:04:45 PM »
I just purchased Mr. Ge's 2011 price guide.  In the medals section there is NO mention or photos of the 84 goldfish.

There ARE photos of the 1990 goldfish.

What does Mr. Ge know that we don't??



Mr. Huang Ruiyong does not include 1984 goldfish silver medal in his medal ranking list either.


Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2012, 06:22:09 PM »
There is a good possibility the 2 sets MAY be sold to CCF members since posting them a few hours ago.  Contacted numerous ebay sellers (30?) and others.  These 2 sets and 1 at NGC is all I could find.  Even the singles were picked up recently.  Someone is buying them up................

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2012, 02:02:41 AM »
The attached table provides the ranking of 1984 pagoda silver and 1990 goldfish silver sets given by Mr. Ge and Mr. Huang in their published book and article. Seven medals which mentioned frequently in this forum also are provided in the table as reference. Hopefully, this can help you make intelligent judgment to assess the value of pagoda and goldfish if they are undervalued or overvalued.

Mr. Ge uses a five stars system and Mr. Huang is six stars system. Both did not include 1984 goldfish silver set in their medal listings. NGC must know something more than these two well-known numismatists.


                                                              Huang          Ge
1984 Pagoda silver set                              *** ½*      ****
1990 Goldfish silver set                             *** ½*       No *
1984 Great Wall (matte), 3.3 tael silver       *** ½*      *****
1984 HK International Expo 1 oz silver        ****          ****
1988 ANA Cincinnati Show 1 oz silver          *** ½*     ** ½*
1996 Munich 1 oz silver                             *** ½*      **
1988 H.K Show, 5 oz silver                        *** ½*      ***
1997, Munich 1 oz  silver                           ****          ***
1987 God of Longevity 3.3 tael silver          *** ½*      **

Offline Gilmore

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2012, 03:04:16 AM »
Thank you Poconopenn for the list. I am glad to see that the 2 experts are in agreement about the 1984 HK International Expo 1 oz silver. Both of them rate it at 4 stars. It has a mintage of 1000, 4 times higher than the pagodas, and yet not as often seen as the pagodas. Looking at NGC's census both the pagodas and the 1984 HK expo have about the same population of graded medals - a little over 60 - even though there is a big difference in mintage. This medal deserves a lot more attention in my opinion.

It is my favorite panda of all and happy to own it.

(There is no intention here to imply or say something bad about the pagodas. Buy, collect and enjoy them if you like them.)

 

Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2012, 10:16:08 AM »
I have looked pretty hard to find the pagoda and goldfish sets for sale.  The pagoda set is off the market because the seller bought it at a higher price and will not sell it for prices today.  The goldfish set is PF 69 UC 1990 $3000 and is available.  Not cheap.  Maybe these sets are not so common as the owners paid more for them then they are worth today.  So why sell now?  Supply of singles and low grade pagodas have disappeared from the market.  Have chatted w/ many collectors/investors/sellers and the majority say due to low mintage, the pagodas are worth keeping.  It seems many are just holding tight to them.  In China the pagodas are not that highly recommended from what I read.  Yet due to huge number of potential Chinese buyers and low mintage the pagodas do have a following.  So this coin is your call or choice.  Will NGC give it a clean bill of health or open more questions?  Time will tell.  For me it is a gamble worth taking...............

Offline silvercoins

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #79 on: October 03, 2012, 01:16:28 PM »
I have a complete set of the 1984 Silver Goldfish Medals/Coins in the original box. I've had it since the late 80's and have enjoyed looking at it from time to time. I've never been able to find much about it and am very appreciative for the latest research and information. I believe it is the 1984 silver version of the goldfish set (each weights approximately 22g). At this point I am planning on having them graded. Based on the results I'll probably be even more confused whether to sell or hold for another 25 years! Which way do you see the Chinese coin/medal market going from here?

Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #80 on: October 03, 2012, 02:05:49 PM »

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-China-The-Great-Wall-Silver-3-3oz-Error-Medal-NGC-MS64-Mintage-200-Rare-/320991272215?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item4abc921d17

This is probably a bad example but what the heck.  Same year, 1984 Great Wall 3.3 0z (bigger coin), 200 mintage (silver pagodas 260 mintage)  low grade PF 64 and priced at $5,000.   Typical price.  It is a "error" coin to so that is rare.  The graded silver pagodas are genuine and their name will be finally cleared by upcoming NGC article.  How can the graded silver paodas not go back up in price?  Even if the Chinese are not buyers, the US buyers want lowest mintage possible so demand should head back up.  I doubt they will be priced at $5000 but as cheap as they are now, why would they not double in price?  Your 1984 silver goldfish have already had an article by NGC on them.  I know very little about them but they too have low mintage and buyers that want them.  (Badon was looking for a set)  Why won't the price of your silver goldfish increase greatly?  Good idea to grade them but not to sell.  Let them continue to gain in value as the 84 are rare compared to the 1990 goldfish.  As many investment articles say about rare coins, hold them and let them go up.  Demand for MCC is going up and supply down.....................

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #81 on: October 03, 2012, 06:18:49 PM »
I have a complete set of the 1984 Silver Goldfish Medals/Coins in the original box. I've had it since the late 80's and have enjoyed looking at it from time to time. I've never been able to find much about it and am very appreciative for the latest research and information. I believe it is the 1984 silver version of the goldfish set (each weights approximately 22g). At this point I am planning on having them graded. Based on the results I'll probably be even more confused whether to sell or hold for another 25 years! Which way do you see the Chinese coin/medal market going from here?

I see that was your first post, so welcome to our forum!

The 1984 goldfish are extremely, extremely rare. They are closely related to the pagodas (nobody knows why yet, other than having the same date). The pagodas have a mintage of 260 and there are around 50 known surviving sets. There is no mintage information for the 1984 goldfish, but it is clear that they are far, far rarer. Right now, I would estimate that there are around 15 to 20 known surviving sets out there.

More pagodas and goldfish could be discovered in the future, but it is a near-certainty that the supply will never be able to keep up with the demand. In other words, prices are likely to remain on an upward trend over the long term, forever.

There are a few key coins that sit in the elite level that only a few of us have access to. The 1984 goldfish are part of that elite level. They are probably rarer than the 1984 great wall, which can sell for a 5 figure price, as pandamonium mentioned. There are some extremely rare coins that are still available enough that they could be purchased within a year by a determined buyer.

As pandamonium has mentioned, I have been trying to buy the 1984 goldfish, and they have been harder to find than most of the rarest-of-the-rare pandas. Only a few pattern panda coins are harder to obtain than 1984 goldfish.

There is no question, if you are lucky enough to own a 1984 goldfish set, it would be wise of you to keep it. Furthermore, it's the kind of coin that would be wise for your heirs to keep, too. I feel the 1984 goldfish are worthy of becoming the heirlooms of a wealthy family.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #82 on: October 03, 2012, 09:39:54 PM »
silvercoins, can you post some photos of your 1984 silver goldfish set and the box?.  (to post photos click additional options)...............

low

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #83 on: October 03, 2012, 10:41:05 PM »
I am always interested to find out what happens in Shanghai Mint in 1984. They minted, but not released the proof set of 35th establishment of PRC with about 50 (or 55) sets known to date.

It is probably the rarest proof set of circulation commemorative coins.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #84 on: October 03, 2012, 11:34:56 PM »
I am always interested to find out what happens in Shanghai Mint in 1984. They minted, but not released the proof set of 35th establishment of PRC with about 50 (or 55) sets known to date.

It is probably the rarest proof set of circulation commemorative coins.

FYI,
One of this Shanghai Mint rare proof set shown up in US this year and bought by one member of CCF at price of Shenyang Mint set. I had the honor to examine this set in detail and found to be identical to the NGC graded set.

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3299322-001

low

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #85 on: October 03, 2012, 11:48:03 PM »
FYI,
One of this Shanghai Mint rare proof set shown up in US this year and bought by one member of CCF at price of Shenyang Mint set. I had the honor to examine this set in detail and found to be identical to the NGC graded set.

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3299322-001

Wow! That is bargain of century.

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #86 on: October 04, 2012, 01:17:43 AM »
1984 was one of the strangest and most interesting years in China's numismatics. I can't think of anything minted in 1984 that doesn't have significant collector value. Even the mint sets for the "common" circulating coins are quite rare and valuable.

Usually, collectors compete with each other to obtain the rarest coins they can afford. It would be interesting to try to obtain the cheapest, most common 1984 coins. I'm sure there's something out there that's not rare or expensive from 1984 - maybe the regular circulating coinage is common, but I think it is still quite rare and valuable in higher grades.

low

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #87 on: October 04, 2012, 01:54:18 AM »
FYI,
One of this Shanghai Mint rare proof set shown up in US this year and bought by one member of CCF at price of Shenyang Mint set. I had the honor to examine this set in detail and found to be identical to the NGC graded set.

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3299322-001

Sorry poconopenn.

The NGC graded set is not Shanghai Mint.

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #88 on: October 04, 2012, 02:09:59 AM »
Low, how do you tell the difference between Shenyang and Shanghai for that set?

low

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #89 on: October 04, 2012, 02:47:47 AM »
Low, how do you tell the difference between Shenyang and Shanghai for that set?

Badon, I will post picture later.

Offline wg

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goldfish, pagoda
« Reply #90 on: October 04, 2012, 03:41:49 AM »

Offline wg

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #91 on: October 04, 2012, 04:29:47 AM »
sorry .. forgot you must be member to see the pics

here one more time


Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #92 on: October 04, 2012, 04:54:14 AM »
That's one of the nicest 1990 goldfish boxes I have seen. The carved stone goldfish is unusually attractive. How old is that price list? I see it has pagodas with a date of 1982. I don't see the 1984 goldfish listed.

low

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #93 on: October 04, 2012, 05:14:43 AM »
Low, how do you tell the difference between Shenyang and Shanghai for that set?

http://bbs.jibi.net/dv_rss.asp?s=xhtml&boardid=82&id=199062&page=7

Offline wg

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #94 on: October 04, 2012, 05:26:19 AM »

@ badon

price list is from oct. 2011

emk

they list 2 x gold fish 1990 but when i get the coins 1 set was 1990 and one 1984


Offline aragog

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #95 on: October 04, 2012, 07:04:19 AM »
@ badon

price list is from oct. 2011

emk

they list 2 x gold fish 1990 but when i get the coins 1 set was 1990 and one 1984


and 2000 set price is/was funny, besides those you checked, otherwise it`s not that cheap and from their present offer there is nothing to choose from.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #96 on: October 04, 2012, 11:32:49 AM »
Sorry poconopenn.

The NGC graded set is not Shanghai Mint.

The following link (in the middle of the page), posted by the same author of your link, has mentioned this NGC graded set as Shanghai Mint. The coin with missing colunm of center hall in the reverse is not necessary for all three coins. As soon as I have the permisson from the owner of the set in US, I will post the detailed picutres.

http://bbs4.xx007.cn/dispbbs.asp?boardid=10&replyid=3996317&id=2466816&page=163&skin=0&Star=1

This 3-coin NGC PF69 set was sold for $14,000 in 2011.


 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 02:28:17 PM by poconopenn »

low

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #97 on: October 04, 2012, 06:03:21 PM »
Poconopenn,

The shape of the 5 stars cannot lie.

Shanghai coins has small stars, and Shenyang coins has large stars. The NGC set shows large stars, consistent with coins minted by Shenyang Mint. Look at the photos in reply #96.

If you get the chance, take the NGC coins and compared it against a pair of 1985 Great Wall $1, both Shengyang (wide date) and Shanghai (narrow date).


Offline poconopenn

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #98 on: October 04, 2012, 11:17:22 PM »
Poconopenn,

The shape of the 5 stars cannot lie.

Shanghai coins has small stars, and Shenyang coins has large stars. The NGC set shows large stars, consistent with coins minted by Shenyang Mint. Look at the photos in reply #96.

If you get the chance, take the NGC coins and compared it against a pair of 1985 Great Wall $1, both Shengyang (wide date) and Shanghai (narrow date).



IMO, the NGC graded set is small stars, Shanghai Mint. Better picture of this set was posted in the following link (Nov., 2011 auction result). Unfortunately, the link is not workable at this moment.

http://www.airmb.com/chengshifengguang/jianguo-35-zhounianshanghaibanjingzhibipaichu-88888-yuan/

I will open a new thread in next two days to discuss the details of this rare proof set. The small stars for Shanghai Mint and large stars for Shenyang Mint coins are known to most collectors of proof sets. All fens, jaios, yuans produced in 1982, 1984-1986 have small and large stars versions. Currently, I am selling a pair of 1985 1 Yuan at ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150914958888?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

low

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #99 on: October 05, 2012, 02:09:09 AM »
Thanks Poconopenn.

Large photos for the NGC set will be good, if available.

Looking at your ebay listing, sorry to say, the SD (left coin) should be Shanghai. The right coin should be Shenyang.

http://search.ebay.com/160842606808 - Shenyang large date

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #100 on: October 05, 2012, 11:38:30 PM »

Looking at your ebay listing, sorry to say, the SD (left coin) should be Shanghai. The right coin should be Shenyang.

http://search.ebay.com/160842606808 - Shenyang large date


Thanks for notice the incorrect label.

Offline badon

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #101 on: October 07, 2012, 04:37:04 AM »
I just started a topic that everyone following this discussion will probably be interested in:

badon was wrong about these 1984 22 g silver goldfish fakes - opinions?

Offline wg

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goldfish 1990 medals blister
« Reply #102 on: November 03, 2012, 08:05:25 AM »
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 08:12:59 AM by wg »

Offline silvercoins

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2012, 01:59:47 PM »
Thanks badon...can't imagine a better response. It'd be great to be at the beginning of a potential family heirloom. We'll see how the certification works out.

Here are photos of the box set, and a closeup of one of the coins. Any and all thoughts are much appreciated!

Thanks again.
SC

Offline Hippanda

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"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius


Offline Hippanda

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #106 on: December 26, 2012, 01:05:50 AM »
That's a minor issue.

There is SO much more wrong with this picture.


Anyone else want to take a stab, or three?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Lightsview

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Re: What are your future plans re (1984) goldfish medals?
« Reply #107 on: December 26, 2012, 05:51:34 AM »
2 red high-head?