Author Topic: What's a original pagoda set worth  (Read 228884 times)

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Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #315 on: March 06, 2014, 12:54:38 AM »
Found this as a bookmark in a book (appears to be from a June 11, 2011 auction catalog).  Figure I share it with the community.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #316 on: March 08, 2014, 09:14:47 PM »
SANDC,

Can you see stress hairlines next to the rim in 2767915-001?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #317 on: March 08, 2014, 10:37:21 PM »
You mean the radial cartwheel lines or luster streaks that's noticeable at certain angle?  For 4090973-004 the radial cartwheel lines are long, numerous and easy to see on both reverse and obverse.  For 2767915-001 it is very few, short and hard to see.  The few short radial lines of 2767915-001 have the same characteristic as the long radial lines of 4090973-004, i.e., it disappears when looking straight at it, but show up at certain light angle.

My initial reaction was no radial cartwheel lines for 2767915-001, but when I look harder for them, I did find a few such lines.

Edit, I take back what I said about radial lines "disappears when looking straight at it, but show up at certain light angle".  It is exactly the reverse, another word, the radial lines are clearest when they are inside of the ring light circle of my inspection stereo microscope (which mean I'm looking straight down at them), but disappear when they are outside of the ring light circle. 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 11:07:29 PM by SANDAC »

Offline pandamonium

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #318 on: March 09, 2014, 10:10:32 AM »
You got the silver pagoda from the dealer and i got the broken box.......

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #319 on: March 09, 2014, 09:48:45 PM »
You mean the radial cartwheel lines or luster streaks that's noticeable at certain angle?  For 4090973-004 the radial cartwheel lines are long, numerous and easy to see on both reverse and obverse.  For 2767915-001 it is very few, short and hard to see.  The few short radial lines of 2767915-001 have the same characteristic as the long radial lines of 4090973-004, i.e., it disappears when looking straight at it, but show up at certain light angle.

My initial reaction was no radial cartwheel lines for 2767915-001, but when I look harder for them, I did find a few such lines.

Edit, I take back what I said about radial lines "disappears when looking straight at it, but show up at certain light angle".  It is exactly the reverse, another word, the radial lines are clearest when they are inside of the ring light circle of my inspection stereo microscope (which mean I'm looking straight down at them), but disappear when they are outside of the ring light circle. 

Sorry, my mistake. Please compare to 4090973-004. The stress induced hairlines should start from the edge of the rim toward the center and with length about 1 to 5 mm.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #320 on: March 09, 2014, 10:00:03 PM »
Guys,

I see two other candidates for the same type of frosted appearance:

3299509-017
3362860-023

Regards
dc55232

Thanks. +1

3299509-017 to -024 had been known as two sets of silver plated.

3362860-021 to -024 was not know before. This set is identical to the above two sets.


 

Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #321 on: March 10, 2014, 02:37:22 AM »
I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing so I attached reverse pictures of the two coins, 4090973-004 (first picture) and 2767915-001 (second picture).  I recently purchased a Polaroid 48 Macro LED ring light for macro photography.  It emulates nicely what I can see under my stereo inspection microscope equipped with microscope ring light.  As I mentioned previously, the stress lines are most readily observable when looking straight at it (camera or microscope lens perpendicular to the coin surface) and illuminated with ring light.  That's how these two pictures were taken using Polaroid ring light, lens perpendicular to coin surface, same exposure and same position.

The stress lines are long and numerous for 4090973-004.  I marked just a few with red arrows along the rim to show what I mean by stress lines.  2767915-001, on the other hand, has only few and short stress lines.  There are a cluster of them at 8 o'clock position, a few of them at 9 o'clock, two-third distance from the center of the coin, and a few more scatter at 10-11 oclock and 3 o'clock position.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #322 on: March 10, 2014, 02:38:48 AM »
File too large to fit in one post.  This is 2767915-001.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #323 on: March 13, 2014, 11:39:16 PM »
SANDC,

Thanks you very much for such excellent pictures.
 
The stress induced hairlines are marked in the first picture. Those hairlines are indigenous to the high silver content coin of MCC, but usually not in a silver plated coin, unless the plate is very thick.
 
Picture 2 and 3 shows Chinese characters. 2767915-001 definitely has extra material inside the crevices of Chinese characters vs. 4090973-004. This suggests that production die of 2767915-001 is copied from genuine medal, not from a master die.

Picture 4 and 5 show the differences of frosting treatment. 2767915-001 gives one shade frosty, while 4090973-004 has different shades and mirror doors and windows, therefore, the difference in 3-D effects. Picture 6 and 7 show many very small white spots near the rim of 2767815-001. Those very small white spots are caused by poor technique in frosting treatment (sandblasting) of production die. Apparently, the sub-micro sand particles were spread to near the rim during the treatment. The inferior frosting technique suggests this 2767915-001 is not the product of China Mint.

Picture 8 is a section of edge readings of 2767915-001. The ugly brownish toned edge readings in 2767915-001 may be related to the metal underneath, such as copper.
 
IMO, this medal is a reproduction and made with silver alloy to give a right weight.

Dc52532 was kindly to provide me with NGC certified # of all pagoda sets in his file. To my surprise, there were 8 sets being considered as “not genuine”, out of 72 sets submitted, by NGC and half of the rejections were made after NGC started to grade genuine plated set. Clearly, they are fake sets in the market place.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #324 on: March 14, 2014, 12:02:55 AM »
poconopenn,
Thank you for you detailed and thoughtful analysis.  I believe I have counter arguments for most of your analysis and I'll take more pictures of pagoda set I have and present them.  I do agree with this observation:
Picture 6 and 7 show many very small white spots near the rim of 2767815-001. Those very small white spots are caused by poor technique in frosting treatment (sandblasting) of production die. Apparently, the sub-micro sand particles were spread to near the rim during the treatment. The inferior frosting technique suggests this 2767915-001 is not the product of China Mint.
I was puzzled about the numerous small dots and wonder what they are.  Poor masking for sandblasting seem a reasonable explaination.


Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #325 on: March 14, 2014, 05:32:31 PM »
I like to start off with a series of  black&white, high-resolution photos of the reverses of solid silver pagoda set.  They were photographed specifically to highlight the signature of the reverse dies.  The coin was illuminated obliquely from right side (3 o'clock) and again from left side (9 o'clock) to highlight die scratches, grooves, bumps and blisters.  Multiple exposures at each direction of illumination were taken and coverted to black & white and the best halves were selected and form a composite photo like HDR photos.  Unlike normal HDR, these are not nice and pretty enhanced pictures, they are really ugly pictures specifically for die signature identification.

The first black&white composite picture is Kaiyuan, 3627655-026.  The broken line (red arrow) is clearly shown in all file photos of NGC solid silver Kaiyuan except the Kaiyuan-in-question, 2767915-001.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #326 on: March 14, 2014, 05:34:30 PM »
Due to the resolution of photos and 3 megabyte limit per post, I'll post one picture per post. 

The second composite picture is Songyue, 3627655-027.  All solid silver Songyue (except 2767915-002 and 2767722-008) has the distinct "belly button" defect (red arrow) in NGC file photo.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #327 on: March 14, 2014, 05:37:04 PM »
The third picture is Zhenjue, 3627655-025.  The two diagonal bumps on the short, wide pagoda (red arrows) are visible on most NGC file photos of Zhenjue.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #328 on: March 14, 2014, 05:38:29 PM »
The fourth picture is Yingxian, 3623867-022.  The large bump pointed by red arrow is visible in all NGC file photo of silver pagoda except, of course, 2767915-003.  

Now is time to talk about the numerous grooves and deep scratches pointed out with green arrows in 5 places of all production pagoda reverses (there are many more, I'm just pointing out the obvious ones).  These deep scratches are common to all solid silver pagoda types.  This is a curious feature of Pagoda: while raised bumps and blisters, commonly associated with EDM forgery, are different for different pagoda types, the recessed grooves and deep scratches are common to all types.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #329 on: March 14, 2014, 05:50:59 PM »
The fifth picture is Kaiyuan-in-question, 2767915-001.  Note raised bumps and blisters are present at different location but there are no deep scratches and grooves.

I think we can agree that the most minute details on the obverse of genuine production Kaiyuan are duplicated in Kaiyuan-in-question.  Therefore on the reverse the corresponding minute details should also be duplicated.  If the reverse of the Kaiyuan-in-question is indeed a detailed copy of existing coins, these deep scratches and grooves pointed by green arrows should also be present.  My argument is that as far as I can tell, all (except 2767915-00x and 2767722-008) solid silver pagoda are made with same reverse die and all four reverse production dies have common deep scratches not present in the reverse of Kaiyuan-in-question. Therefore reverse of Kaiyuan-in-question is not a copy of the production reverses.  I argue in addition that the reverse of Kaiyuan-in-question is in better shape than the reverse of production dies which lead to the conclusion that Kaiyuan-in-question is a pattern or trial coin.

To augment the better-than-production-die argument I want to revisit the previous post (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5564.msg58843#msg58843) and point out the more detailed features of Kaiyuan-in-question compare to that of production Kaiyuan.  I also annotate the pictures P4 and P5 in your post and show in green arrows that artifacts in the windows and doors of Kaiyuan-in-question are more pronounced than production Kaiyuan and additionally there is a raised line present in Kaiyuan-in-question that's not present in the production Kaiyuan.  In conclusion I argue that Kaiyuan-in-question has more details and fewer defects and therefore was produced by earlier state dies than the production dies.

If it is indeed a trial coin, then different planchet may be used resulting in different type of stress lines and coin edge discoloration (I still think it is only toning probably due to handling)