Author Topic: What's a original pagoda set worth  (Read 224589 times)

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Offline PeterPanda

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What's a original pagoda set worth
« on: April 27, 2012, 04:06:44 PM »
We just got in from an old time collection we bought a super original pagoda set.  I was planning on sending to NGC but then this looks so original I hate to break it up.  Maybe I'll just keep it this way.  Anyway guys what's it worth.....I have seen some crazy prices posted.

Buy the book before the coin

Offline adamc4

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2012, 04:59:15 PM »
The market is currently treating raw pagoda sets as being worth between $2000-$3000 and full PF69 sets as worth between $4000-$5000. There has been a good bit of confusion about how to tell if coins are genuine silver or genuine silver-plated.

Offline exchange

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2012, 05:06:18 PM »
We just got in from an old time collection we bought a super original pagoda set.  I was planning on sending to NGC but then this looks so original I hate to break it up.  Maybe I'll just keep it this way.  Anyway guys what's it worth.....I have seen some crazy prices posted.

If you plan on grading the medals, I would be interested in buying the wooden box.

Sincerely,
exchange

Offline Lightsview

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2012, 07:43:13 PM »
The box itself is a beauty... its a pity we don't get to see such handcrafted boxes now.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2012, 08:58:21 PM »
Peter,

Please post a high resolution picture of reverse. The pictures show you have a original box, but not necessary the genuine set. The certificate is not correct. It should have two Chinese characters of pagoda below the (Fanous Chinese Pagoda). The certificate should not mention the mintage.

Offline Panda Express

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2012, 09:39:17 PM »
As you may or may not be already aware by now concerning the controversy surrounding the 1984 Pagoda medals, the weights of each coin in the set plays a major role in determining its genuineness as stated in a prior thread several weeks ago.  Michael Corley from NGC is currently handling this issue.  I should receive an email response from him next week.  In his last email, he stated that NGC may have to re-label all prior sets and weigh each certified coin. You should probably do the same by weighing your coin before sending them in for grading.  22.22 grams should be the genuine ancient pagoda medals as inscribed in the COA while the medals that weigh 20 gm maybe the silver plated medals.  In either case, NGC will have make that determination.  I will keep forum members informed once the final determination has been set with NGC.

Offline badon

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 12:06:01 AM »
I am still skeptical of "genuine" plated coins. I haven't seen any plated coins that were genuine, so I don't think they exist. All of the ones I have examined were made using forgery techniques, so if mint officials say they're genuine, I would want to ask them why they were using forgery techniques when they have a government mint. It wouldn't be the first time someone in an official role has just completely made something up with no basis in reality.

As soon as I see plated pagodas that weren't made using forgery techniques, I'll reconsider my opinion that they don't exist. I have a small collection of plated pagodas and goldfish, but there are a few I fake types that have appeared on the market in the last 18 months that I have seen in photos, but I do not own, so it's very likely I have not seen everything. Poconopenn is pretty insistent that genuine plated pagodas exist, and although I disagree with him about some things, he's very often correct.

It appears there are 42 sightings collected so far in CCT640: 1984 22 g silver ancient pagoda temple 4 coin set, with 196 known specimens.

Offline badon

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 12:10:33 AM »
The photos posted by PeterPanda appear to be of genuine coins. They do not have the characteristics of the contemporary forgeries from the 1980's or early 1990's. The only forgeries that they could possibly be are more modern forgeries. In order to detect them, I would need very good photographs from multiple angles, or better yet, being able to view them in person...or you could just send them to NGC and let them figure it out :)

Underbidder

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 01:14:30 AM »
I'd like to see photos of the other sides of these medals to help determine if they are the plated ones.

The box is of the type, exactly, in which plated goldfish came in.
And guess what?  The box even has goldfish carved in it !  Did you not catch that?

There were fancy carved boxes with Scenary that Pagodas were supposed to come in, and there were fancy carved boxes like this one with carved goldfish, which goldfish sets came in.  And many I have seen, are plated.  And there is no plausible explanation how "forgers" would do that, and also with plated Pagodas.  It makes no sense.
Just more proof these sets were mixed up, as I have seen this several times.

It makes more sense at least some plated goldfish, and at least some plated goldfish, came in these boxes.  And are mint product.

So that suggests there is a possibility this set is plated, official mint made.

Offline badon

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 01:37:40 AM »
No, there's no correlation. Forgers routinely swap out original coins and put fakes in the original boxes. No magic there. About half the fake pagodas I bought were in original boxes. You are correct that the pagoda and goldfish boxes were mixed up from the beginning, back in 1984.

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 01:42:32 AM »
Hey, I got an idea-

Why don't we just ask Luckmoneyro at LUCKPAWNSHOP if he can have his peeps
find us some plated Pagodas to sell us, along with his plated goldfish?

Maybe he knows the secret !  ;)

Ya think his mint made medals are legit?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-China-of-goldfish-Copper-plating-silver-china-coin-/221007770043?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337516f1bb

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2012, 01:47:40 AM »
No, there's no correlation. Forgers routinely swap out original coins and put fakes in the original boxes. No magic there. About half the fake pagodas I bought were in original boxes. You are correct that the pagoda and goldfish boxes were mixed up from the beginning, back in 1984.

What were these sets going for, back when you suggest they were " forged"?

Pretty dumb forgers, they'd have to be.  Why didn't they use these impressive forging skills on WAY more expensive and profitable
Coins and medals? Like the monk series... Wow, they could have made double the $50, maybe.  

Nah, based on the large numbers of plated goldfish medals in these carved boxes, I think no forgers could have made money gathering
a few legit boxes and exchanging them with forgeries.  That makes even LESS sense.

Offline badon

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2012, 01:51:02 AM »
I'd like to see photos of the other sides of these medals to help determine if they are the plated ones.

I guess in the Coin Compendium age, there's no point keeping diagnostic secrets anymore. Most of the plated ones I have seen from older forgeries all use dies that were copied from just one of the reverses. That's the give-away that they were not made by the mint, because the mint has no need to forge its own dies. More recent forgeries have started to duplicate the reverse dies better, but they still fall short of perfection.

However, there are still a few unanswered questions I have that leave open the possibility of genuine "varieties" of the pagodas. I just have not been able to give it the study time I wanted to, so for now, I'm hesitant to say definitively that there are no varieties of the pagodas out there...

I'm sure eventually we'll get enough info together that we can settle these questions, in much the same way we did with the 2012 Singapore expo pandas. As always, the thrill of the hunt is a lot of fun.

Offline badon

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2012, 01:56:16 AM »
What were these sets going for, back when you suggest they were " forged"?

Pretty dumb forgers, they'd have to be.  Why didn't they use these impressive forging skills on WAY more expensive and profitable
Coins and medals? Like the monk series... Wow, they could have made double the $50, maybe. 

Nah, based on the large numbers of plated goldfish medals in these carved boxes, I think no forgers could have made money gathering
a few legit boxes and exchanging them with forgeries.  That makes even LESS sense.

I don't know for sure what they were selling back in the 1980's and 1990's, but I'm sure the forgeries were profitable, since the bullion value alone made them profitable. Plus, I'm not sure the boxes were produced in limited numbers. I have seen so many of the boxes separate from their genuine coins that its impossible to assume only enough were made for the genuine coins. In fact, the same shop that produced them could have had a side-contract to produce them for the forgers. That's just speculation, but either way, I ascribe no authentication capability to the boxes.

In the 1980's, China was earning extremely low wages per hour worked - something in the pennies range. Lots of boxes and forgeries were produced for such cheap prices that the problem isn't making them, it's putting them into the market in as large of quantities as possible without drawing too much attention.

Offline badon

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Re: What's a original pagoda set worth
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2012, 01:59:52 AM »
Hey, I got an idea-

Why don't we just ask Luckmoneyro at LUCKPAWNSHOP if he can have his peeps
find us some plated Pagodas to sell us, along with his plated goldfish?

Maybe he knows the secret !  ;)

Ya think his mint made medals are legit?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-China-of-goldfish-Copper-plating-silver-china-coin-/221007770043?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337516f1bb

No, they are all fake. The mint did not produce those coins, they are not responsible for the packaging either. That seller is well-known for dealing exclusively in fakes. I have never seen him sell a genuine coin.