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Author Topic: what is different in this 1985 silver 1 oz panda  (Read 4564 times)
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Dragons_Are_Silly
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« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2012, 02:25:39 AM »

Are Patterns made differently?

Can this coin be positively ruled out as pattern?

Tkcoin has point: if counterfeit, should have seen others of these.  No make much sense to make only one or few.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 02:34:40 AM by Dragons_Are_Silly » Logged
Dragons_Are_Silly
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« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2012, 02:57:00 AM »

This one for sale looks plenny "frosty" too

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-China-Silver-Panda-1-Ounce-10-Yuan-NGC-PF-65-Ultra-Cameo-/360450110162?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53ec8032d2#ht_845wt_922

Fake?  Real?
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badon
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« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2012, 03:10:03 AM »

Are Patterns made differently?

Can this coin be positively ruled out as pattern?

Tkcoin has point: if counterfeit, should have seen others of these.  No make much sense to make only one or few.

1. Yes, for every one I have ever seen or heard of, although I am not an expert in patterns, and I do not collect them.

2. Yes and no. Yes (99.9% certainty) as a coin pattern. No, as a production technique experimental "process pattern". Since the method used to make the die for this coin is not normally high enough quality for major government mints, and even most competent private mints, I think it is unlikely to be a product of the China mint.

3. Yes. I hope we can find them and document them in the CC so we can figure out where they are, and where they came from. Most importantly, any dealer of minimal quality guarantees the authenticity of his coins for a lifetime. When a customer makes a credible claim that the coin he bought is actually a fake, the dealer will refund the client, and then pursue his supplier. Every dealer doing that all the way back to the origin will put a spotlight on the shady dealers injecting fakes into the market, and they will no longer be acceptable as business partners for the reputable dealers. The overall effect will be to drive out forgeries, and suspicious coins that have no known reputable origin. The CC may even be able to plot a location trail that circles around the facility that produced them. If so, then the data can be used to forcibly shut down the counterfeiters.
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aragog
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« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2012, 04:08:46 AM »

TK,

I haven't said your coin is a fake, although I have my suspicions. We have all spent a lot of time discussing a coin that needs to be certified by NGC or PCGS to be considered genuine by most people. The graders will have the coin in hand, and will make their decision. Just send it in (again), and be done with it.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

That is what I would do, find genuine box certificate and capsule and send it to NGC again. If returned as questionable, then it is not genuine, but I see the chances 50-50.
What I personally do not like about this coin are letters above the palace, the lines should always be smooth, I think. But, on the other hand I have never studied modern PROOF coins so much in details.
About frosting of the ground, on ebay all 1985 pandas have frosting similar to yours questionable coin
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1983-1984-1985-27g-silver-panda-coin-3coins-/251022243391?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7217763f
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-27g-panda-silver-coin-NGC-PF68-/370605491546?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5649cf055a
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-China-10-Yuan-Silver-Panda-Proof-Coin-3RD-Year-Issuance-PCGS-PR68DCAM-/110851504528?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf43b990
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item3f1513e5c0&item=270936565184&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=c7geI0KElOcrWSrIrP%252Fh0Z4UsAA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item1c2247c434&item=120834212916&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=c7geI0KElOcrWSrIrP%252Fh0Z4UsAA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item4844e30f7a&item=310393376634&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=c7geI0KElOcrWSrIrP%252Fh0Z4UsAA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item33748e2f91&item=220998807441&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=c7geI0KElOcrWSrIrP%252Fh0Z4UsAA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
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tkcoin
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« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2012, 06:20:26 AM »

aragog,

Thank you for pointing out that all 1985 should have frost on the ground. And you are right the lines for characters above temple is little bit less defined, maybe because the die being used too many times?

So the other 1985 which has no frosting on the ground surface is the special one and it is NGC certified.

What a turn of event. We are all barking on the wrong tree!
Talk about being regarded as CMC experts, we should all be ashmed.

Can we find out if non-frost 1985 panda is really that rare?
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tkcoin
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« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2012, 06:25:14 AM »

aragog,

Thank you for pointing out that all 1985 should have frost on the ground. And you are right the lines for characters above temple is little bit less defined, maybe because the die being used too many times?

So the other 1985 which has no frosting on the ground surface is the DIFFERENT one and it is NGC CERTIFIED.

What a turn of event. We are all barking on the wrong tree!
Talk about being regarded as CMC experts, we should all be ashmed for not noticing such simle fact.

Can we find out how rare is the non-frost 1985 panda?
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comeaux
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« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2012, 10:12:48 AM »

Tk as has been mentioned … maybe you should resubmit your coin as “questionable authenticity” does not indicate your coin is fake, it just means that it could not be confirmed 100% that it is indeed authentic. If it would have come back “not genuine” then most likely it’s 100% fake.

Possibly with a second submission you may have better luck   
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poconopenn
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« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2012, 12:51:54 PM »

tkcoin,

My first response to you post was "the usual sharp three dimensional detail is missing" and Peter's first response was "details in head don't look quite right". Obviously, you did not realize these hints which are clearly shown in your side-by-side pictures.

Counterfeiter has to make impression of the genuine coin for the mold.  Impression will shrink slightly after the liquid evaporated. The mold and die made with this impression usually does  not have the details of the original geniune coin. The size of dots and lines will be slightly larger than the original. You coin shows those differences in many places. Similar to Peter, I can not give you the details. However, some differences already pointed out by some members in their response.
  

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badon
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« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2012, 02:09:40 PM »

I changed this coin to "Suspected fake" instead of "Fake". I want to spend some time studying the temple side for more clues that can answer some of the questions I have formulated about how this coin was made.
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tkcoin
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« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2012, 02:57:03 PM »

I changed this coin to "Suspected fake" instead of "Fake". I want to spend some time studying the temple side for more clues that can answer some of the questions I have formulated about how this coin was made.
This is very good move.
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tkcoin
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« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2012, 03:14:18 PM »

Now that we know this coin is actually the common type, NGC's judgement on this coin weighs more becaue we don't have the frost excuses.
I still think that the small details people have pointed out and I have seen so far still don't rise to the level of QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY.
NGC has seen something we still have not seen.

My biggest question is still that if this is counterfeit, why we have not seen it before and why there is no skewing or surge for 1985 panda appearence and sales.
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tkcoin
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« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2012, 06:21:39 PM »

The 1985 unfrosted/less frosted variety is not as rare as I have hoped.

I searched on the eBay of the sales records of last 60 days and found at least one unfrosted at:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-PCGS-PR-68-DCAM-CHINA-SILVER-PANDA-1985-/330700062069?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cff427d75

Google on 1985 silver panda under Images section also produces at least 1 unfrost 1985 panda. There also seem some with less frost but not totally unfrost.

One thing to find out is that if the frost is gradually reduced during the production or it was an abrupt change from frost to no frost.

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slimboyinhk
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« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2012, 01:34:38 AM »

Very interesting read. Final question, was this coin sent to PCGS or resubmitted to NGC? What's the verdict?
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